UK Head of Tesla.... Impressive
Discussion
feef said:
Can anyone confirm who provides the power to the supercharger points? Many here seem to assume that Tesla is providing free charging, I suspect it's the land/property owner where the supercharger is sited that's paying for the power, and Tesla simply supply the charging hardware
Tesla drivers get 'free' charging and the provider of the charging point gets some free business from the driver while they stop for 20 minutes
Even smarter smart charging if so....and if its not that position at the moment, it soon will be.Tesla drivers get 'free' charging and the provider of the charging point gets some free business from the driver while they stop for 20 minutes
Notwithstanding, the power will be dirt cheap as it is stored and only accessed at the cheapest cost.
AyBee said:
Ares said:
kambites said:
AyBee said:
Ares said:
No, their supercharger network (23 sites in the UK, 300+ worldwide) is free to use. Free. As in no cost, for the lifetime of the car. And a full charge in 20mins.
Excellent - the UK is 243,610km² in area and there are 23 sites, we'll all be driving EVs in no time 
Compare that to c.8,500 petrol stations...topless360 said:
Ares said:
coffee/shopping/pee during a 20 min supercharge, or goes to sleep while his car charges overnight.
That's a whole load of peeing, it never takes me 20 minutes And anyway, 20 minutes won't get you a full charge. It will give you up to 50% charge, i.e. enough to get you to your destination. It takes 40 minutes to get a 80% charge, and 75 minutes to get a 100% charge.
I test drove the P85D and discounted it on the basis that you will have to do a lot of planning when going away. And the money you save on petrol you will end up spending on coffee and other bits of useless shopping that you otherwise wouldn't have done.
Unless I lived a stones throw away from a Supercharger point, EV's and infrastructure have a lot of improvement to make before I'd consider one.
On the 'lot of planning' basis, Not sure I agree. If you look where the current Supercharge locations are, you have to work pretty hard to avoid one significantly on any 250/300 journey, and with one location opening most weeks at present, that will improve yet further.
....and that is just to get free charge. Paying for charge commercially (i.e. car parks/on street) is still comically cheap (5-15p per kWh), and charing from home ranges from 12p to £3.50 for a full charge dependant on speed and time of charging.
There isn't really a need for that much planning, unless you only want free charge.
As for the infrastructure needing to improve, it is. Daily. Far quicker than any other transport infrastructure!
topless360 said:
Ares said:
coffee/shopping/pee during a 20 min supercharge, or goes to sleep while his car charges overnight.
That's a whole load of peeing, it never takes me 20 minutes We do a 230 mile each way trip to Edinburgh every month or so - we always stop at the Gretna services. By the time we have disembarked the family (only 3), all been to the toilet, queued in Starbucks, got our coffees, drank/eaten half of what we've bought and got back to the car, it frustrates me that it is at least 20 mins, usually 30.
feef said:
topless360 said:
I test drove the P85D and discounted it on the basis that you will have to do a lot of planning when going away. And the money you save on petrol you will end up spending on coffee and other bits of useless shopping that you otherwise wouldn't have done.
£40 on coffee in a 20 minute period? What are you drinking!??
J4CKO said:
kambites said:
J4CKO said:
I think so many people want the Tesla so badly, but it is too expensive for 99 percent of the population, the Model 3 will sell and the market needs a decent hatchback.
I assume (or at least hope) the Tesla model-3 will be a "decent hatchback"? I'm certainly eyeing it as a direct replacement for our Octavia VRS in five to ten years' time. I'll buy a petrol replacement if I have to, but I'd far rather get an EV. Edited by kambites on Tuesday 13th October 14:55
yonex said:
kambites said:
Not an external one, I think it was on the IBM intranet. It was also an E90 BMW I was comparing it to so it can't have been all that recent. Someone said above that BIK rates for EVs have risen significant recently so it might be very different now?
I just had a brief skim on the deals on private leasing. Cheapest I have seen is;Tesla Model S 85kWh Dual Motor (Nav)
Personal leasing cost
£891.54
per month (Incl. VAT) based on a 48 month contract
Initial Rental
£2,674.62 (Incl. VAT)
Processing Fee
£180.00 (Incl. VAT)
Mr Gear said:
loose cannon said:
And I'm still yet to see how long this 0 to 60 performance lasts in conjunction with range ?
After say 3 bursts of performance what then is the range left over ?
My petrol car will do 50mpg... but not if you repeatedly launch hard it from a standstill. Petrol and electric cars both have to obey the same laws of physics, so I'm sure you can draw your own conclusions.After say 3 bursts of performance what then is the range left over ?
topless360 said:
Think of it like this, say you're doing a 150 mile journey to get home after a weekend away but will require a stop off at a Supercharger point. The Sat Nav will tell you which services you can stop at, all great so far. When you pull over, you and the Mrs go for a coffee and maybe a bite to eat from Starbucks, which will easily set you back £10, possibly a bit more.
The same journey in a petrol powered car at 50mpg would give cost you £14. So in effect you are saving £4 for that journey by having the EV (although paying a hell of a lot more for the car itself).
Basically I calculated that unless you can charge at home and have access to charging points at the places you most commonly visit, you are going to be visiting service stations a hell of a lot more than you do now. Yes the running cost is a lot lower but not by as much as you'd think once you factor in the inconvenience of it all.
Added to that the cost of the P85D I specced was £1000+ per month even after taking into account the tax breaks. No thank you!
....and the (genuine) 50mpg petrol car is....? (clue: not even close to being a competitor)The same journey in a petrol powered car at 50mpg would give cost you £14. So in effect you are saving £4 for that journey by having the EV (although paying a hell of a lot more for the car itself).
Basically I calculated that unless you can charge at home and have access to charging points at the places you most commonly visit, you are going to be visiting service stations a hell of a lot more than you do now. Yes the running cost is a lot lower but not by as much as you'd think once you factor in the inconvenience of it all.
Added to that the cost of the P85D I specced was £1000+ per month even after taking into account the tax breaks. No thank you!
And you never stop when driving a petrol car on a 2.5 hour journey and buy a coffee?
b0rk said:
Ares said:
Only the lucky have electricity at home? Where do you live...???? Even up here in the North we have electricity at almost every home.
City / large town dwellers in apartment blocks may well have issues with EV charging as it is not a simple matter of running an extension from a domestic socket down to the basement. Trust me I've seen lots of 60k+ cars parked in outside or underneath apartment blocks. You also have to consider the effect on the local distribution network in terms of demand if there is significant migration towards EV charging remember the network and substations have not been sized for lots of 80amp loads in addition to normal domestic use.
Colonial said:
loose cannon said:
If I pop over a friends to stay for the night and they have no parking etc, I fancy jumping on the euro tunnel and going for a blast somewhere short notice, you have to suddenly go somewhere important somebody rushed to hospital 100 miles away
Unplanned journeys kill it stone dead currently, I think we will see everything go hybrid first,
Say there are 4 cars at a average house were are all the charge points going let alone all the leads
Most houses have more than 1 car my m8 shares a house there are 5 cars there isn't room for 5 charge points
And would the landlord even pay for them in the first place, then who pays for the vandal damage or maintenance of the points, what if you live in a huge tower block of flats there isn't even enough parking let alone room for charge points
There needs to be a hell of a lot of thing s changed just to accomadate these battery cars before they become anywhere near the norm for most folks
120 years ago...Unplanned journeys kill it stone dead currently, I think we will see everything go hybrid first,
Say there are 4 cars at a average house were are all the charge points going let alone all the leads
Most houses have more than 1 car my m8 shares a house there are 5 cars there isn't room for 5 charge points
And would the landlord even pay for them in the first place, then who pays for the vandal damage or maintenance of the points, what if you live in a huge tower block of flats there isn't even enough parking let alone room for charge points
There needs to be a hell of a lot of thing s changed just to accomadate these battery cars before they become anywhere near the norm for most folks
loose cannon said:
If I dash around to my neighbours house for a social gathering, I am going to be in a bit of a pickle if he doesn't have one of those new fangled petroleum distillate dispensary within close proximity.
Unplanned journeys will kill the car stone dead. Say there are 4 horses per average house, one acquaintance of mine lives at lodgings with 5 other young chaps, each with their own horse, how will one ever fit all those vehicles on the property? With a horse you can just leave it in the stable nice and easy. It can eat as we move through the countryside without having to blasted stop to fill up with that explosive liquid every 3 hours
Unplanned journeys will kill the car stone dead. Say there are 4 horses per average house, one acquaintance of mine lives at lodgings with 5 other young chaps, each with their own horse, how will one ever fit all those vehicles on the property? With a horse you can just leave it in the stable nice and easy. It can eat as we move through the countryside without having to blasted stop to fill up with that explosive liquid every 3 hours
Stupid idea. Petrol powered cars. What ever next....?
bodhi said:
Strange, I've spent a bit of time driving and passengering in my sister's Leaf, and my main conclusion has been - if that's the future of motoring I'd rather walk. I have never driven such a tedious, ugly, slow and stodgy pile of crap in my life. I'm trying to think of something about it which sticks in my mind after a quick spin in it, and all I've come up with is the joy of starting up the straight 6 straight after a go in the Leaf.
Which is my biggest problem with EV's - even ignoring the dubious range, potential grid issues, relying on limited resources for the batteries and motors and weight of the things - to me, they are just so utterly dull. Mash pedal, whirr, steer a bit (until Tesla take that off you as well), stop. About as satisfying to drive as a golf buggy imo.
Yes, but thats a Nissan. Drive a petrol Nissan of the same ilk, it will likely be similarly dreadful. Which is my biggest problem with EV's - even ignoring the dubious range, potential grid issues, relying on limited resources for the batteries and motors and weight of the things - to me, they are just so utterly dull. Mash pedal, whirr, steer a bit (until Tesla take that off you as well), stop. About as satisfying to drive as a golf buggy imo.
kambites said:
Mr GrimNasty said:
We currently effectively have no spare capacity.
You need to back that up with some figures. In terms of total energy generation capacity, we are barely using more than half of the grid's capacity at the moment. Even including required shutdowns for maintenance we're around the 60% mark. No, we don't have enough capacity for every car to be electric but no-one is suggesting that's going to happen. We'll need more capacity to avoid getting regular brown-outs at peak times long before EVs being charged off-peak push the grid to anywhere near its limits.
Yes the grid is in dire straights, but EVs will make no difference to that whatsoever, in fact if anything they'll help because the increase in electricity sales will make it more commercially viable to increase capacity.
Edited by kambites on Wednesday 14th October 13:49
bodhi said:
DonkeyApple said:
Sorry, but we have so much spare capacity in the Grid that we are having to s
t plants down at night which is rather inefficient.
It is very obvious that most EVs will be charged during this period of excess capacity and this extra demand will actually make the Grid more efficient.
At the same time the EV is a mobile store of power. Power that could obviously be drawn upon during the actual peak periods of Grid demand. Again, making the Grid more efficient.
The only problem I see with this is that people aren't going to wait until they go to bed to plug in - chances are they're going to plug in as soon as they get back from work, so there will still be extra demands on the grid from about 6 o clock onwards. t plants down at night which is rather inefficient. It is very obvious that most EVs will be charged during this period of excess capacity and this extra demand will actually make the Grid more efficient.
At the same time the EV is a mobile store of power. Power that could obviously be drawn upon during the actual peak periods of Grid demand. Again, making the Grid more efficient.
kambites said:
Gareth79 said:
kambites said:
Maybe someone could invent a device which switches something on at a particular time. They could call it... a timer switch!
Or, maybe price electricity so that it's cheaper to charge them overnight, maybe for seven hours, we could call it "Economy 7"!bodhi said:
Gareth79 said:
kambites said:
Maybe someone could invent a device which switches something on at a particular time. They could call it... a timer switch!
Or, maybe price electricity so that it's cheaper to charge them overnight, maybe for seven hours, we could call it "Economy 7"!I've got an even easier idea - it's called a petrol station. Park up, spend 5 minutes filling your car up - get on with life.
DOn;t get me wrong I'm all for change and progress, but when the change appears to be a backwards step in convenience, performnace and versatility, that's the kind of progress you can keep imo.
It may take 30 seconds of your life doing so.
....but its preferable to drive to a fuel station, stand in the cold outside, on a fuel stained forecourt, then queue inside to hand over the thick end of £100 for the privilege, then drive home...??
Really? Thats a backwards step?
RobM77 said:
kambites said:
Same reason most of my power tools are battery electric (or electrically compressed air for some of the more brutal ones) rather than petrol. 
A good analogy, but it's a shame that electric cars aren't lighter than petrol ones, unlike hedge cutters and strimmers! k lot quicker bodhi said:
Ares said:
A faff to, once a week, pick up a cable, plus it in. Then go and get on with your evening, go to bed, get, up, unplug the car then drive away.
It may take 30 seconds of your life doing so.
....but its preferable to drive to a fuel station, stand in the cold outside, on a fuel stained forecourt, then queue inside to hand over the thick end of £100 for the privilege, then drive home...??
Really? Thats a backwards step?
Well yes, because it's 30 seconds to plug it in every night, then 30 seconds to unplug it in the morning. As I fill the 125i up once a week, that would be 7 minutes, as opposed to the 3 or 4 I'm at a petrol station. SO I would spend more time faffing around with a charger than I would stopping at one of the many petrol stations I pass every day. It may take 30 seconds of your life doing so.
....but its preferable to drive to a fuel station, stand in the cold outside, on a fuel stained forecourt, then queue inside to hand over the thick end of £100 for the privilege, then drive home...??
Really? Thats a backwards step?
So I'm sorry, I'm not really seeing how, certainly in my situation, running a power cable out the windows and across the fence to where my car is parked, then dicking around plugging it and unplugging it every day, is in anyway more convenient than just stopping at a petrol station? Or having to plan any longer journeys round a charging point, and the extra 25 minutes I would have to stop on the way?
I'm sorry, but that just sounds to me like an enormous pain in the arse.
And the petrol station is never 3 or 4 minutes. The pumping alone takes me more than that, before you consider the drive there/back, queueing at the till etc etc etc.
But at the end of the day, an EV clearly isn't for you as you perceive it as being a backwards step. I'm sure Elon Musk will get over it. There are plenty of other 'forward thinkers' that won't see the future as riddled with negatives
bodhi said:
feef said:
With the average commute being about 10-15 miles or so, you don't need to charge it every night, so hardly a pain in the arse.
also, with the development of the 'snake' charging cables that plug themselves in, you don't even need to do that
With my 30 mile each way commute, I'm guessing that I would have to plug it in every night. Which would become a pain in the arse once the novelty has worn off. also, with the development of the 'snake' charging cables that plug themselves in, you don't even need to do that
And those snake chargers will be great if you have your own garage. Plenty of us out there will not. I do actually know of somebody who couldn't charge at home (installation company took 6 months to fit their charger), so they thought they would just fill up at Morrison's, Service Stations etc. It's been that much of a pain in the arse they've been put off EV's for life.
SO EV's might make sense for a few use cases, there are still plenty of cases they don't work for. Until they can conquer those, then they will never replace ICE, and will remain a curiosity rather than the way forwards. If I had to put my finger on one thing that makes them unviable - it's the battery. Fix those and we'll talk.
But FWIW.... 30miles x2 = 60 miles. Tesla Range, 280 to 350miles (more with range extending battery). We'll let you do the maths...but as a big clue, it won't be every night you'll need to spend 17 hours rewiring your house to get a cable 45 miles over fences, sheep, a mountain range and loop it over the moon and back to reach you car.
bodhi said:
feef said:
bodhi said:
feef said:
With the average commute being about 10-15 miles or so, you don't need to charge it every night, so hardly a pain in the arse.
also, with the development of the 'snake' charging cables that plug themselves in, you don't even need to do that
With my 30 mile each way commute, I'm guessing that I would have to plug it in every night. Which would become a pain in the arse once the novelty has worn off. also, with the development of the 'snake' charging cables that plug themselves in, you don't even need to do that
Now shall we start arguing why the LaFerrari is just f
king stupid and utterly pointless.a) I can't afford it
b) It wouldn't get my bike in the boot
c) I've got 50% more members in my family that it has seats.
d) I couldn't be doing with the filling it up every 38 seconds due to its poor mpg
e) It wouldn't fit in my office car park.
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff