UK Head of Tesla.... Impressive
Discussion
I thought Elon's long term plan for Tesla was to make a fortune on autonomous cars?
They have already talked about a Tesla version of Uber, where the car drives to your door, picks you up and takes you to a destination, then can find a charging station , and return back to a business or 'owners' house.
It could mean they decimate the taxi/minicab/Uber market, and also take a big chunk of hire car business too.
Have you seen their latest tech? The auto charging snake? It can move itself, find the charge point of the car, and plug itself in.
This is designed for car self-charging. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMM0lRfX6YI
So it's not necessarily the cars he intends to make money on, its the % fee per mile of a taxi fare or car rental charge. There are even talks that as a Tesla owner , you could 'rent' your car out for the day to make money, ie both you and Tesla take a cut of a fare when you were not using your car for the day.
They have already talked about a Tesla version of Uber, where the car drives to your door, picks you up and takes you to a destination, then can find a charging station , and return back to a business or 'owners' house.
It could mean they decimate the taxi/minicab/Uber market, and also take a big chunk of hire car business too.
Have you seen their latest tech? The auto charging snake? It can move itself, find the charge point of the car, and plug itself in.
This is designed for car self-charging. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMM0lRfX6YI
So it's not necessarily the cars he intends to make money on, its the % fee per mile of a taxi fare or car rental charge. There are even talks that as a Tesla owner , you could 'rent' your car out for the day to make money, ie both you and Tesla take a cut of a fare when you were not using your car for the day.
If I pop over a friends to stay for the night and they have no parking etc, I fancy jumping on the euro tunnel and going for a blast somewhere short notice, you have to suddenly go somewhere important somebody rushed to hospital 100 miles away
Unplanned journeys kill it stone dead currently, I think we will see everything go hybrid first,
Say there are 4 cars at a average house were are all the charge points going let alone all the leads
Most houses have more than 1 car my m8 shares a house there are 5 cars there isn't room for 5 charge points
And would the landlord even pay for them in the first place, then who pays for the vandal damage or maintenance of the points, what if you live in a huge tower block of flats there isn't even enough parking let alone room for charge points
There needs to be a hell of a lot of thing s changed just to accomadate these battery cars before they become anywhere near the norm for most folks
Unplanned journeys kill it stone dead currently, I think we will see everything go hybrid first,
Say there are 4 cars at a average house were are all the charge points going let alone all the leads
Most houses have more than 1 car my m8 shares a house there are 5 cars there isn't room for 5 charge points
And would the landlord even pay for them in the first place, then who pays for the vandal damage or maintenance of the points, what if you live in a huge tower block of flats there isn't even enough parking let alone room for charge points
There needs to be a hell of a lot of thing s changed just to accomadate these battery cars before they become anywhere near the norm for most folks
If there's four cars at the average house, why on earth would you need them all to be capable of an unplanned journey? No-one is saying that all cars are going to be electric but the vast majority of multi-car households could easily have at least one of them an EV.
In our case we could easily have all of our cars full EV and indeed it would be more convenient and flexible than the ICE cars we have at the moment.
As I understand it most EVs will charge (albeit slowly) from a standard 13 amp socket if necessary so you don't need a "charging point" as such, just a power cable.
In our case we could easily have all of our cars full EV and indeed it would be more convenient and flexible than the ICE cars we have at the moment.
As I understand it most EVs will charge (albeit slowly) from a standard 13 amp socket if necessary so you don't need a "charging point" as such, just a power cable.
Edited by kambites on Tuesday 13th October 11:13
loose cannon said:
Your still missing the point,a Luxo barge isn't a normal car for normal people, were is the electric car that does what I have just mentioned In a practical smallish car for the masses, There isn't one is there ? I'm sure eventually there will be
But until the day I can buy a normal sized car at a normal price point that will do a minimum of 350 miles with as comparable performance and I mean comparable not 3 blasts then crawl at a snail pace for the rest of it performance I'm just not really that interested tbh
Frankly I think you're missing the point a bit here. Electric cars require a different mindset to an ICE one.But until the day I can buy a normal sized car at a normal price point that will do a minimum of 350 miles with as comparable performance and I mean comparable not 3 blasts then crawl at a snail pace for the rest of it performance I'm just not really that interested tbh
When you go out for a blast in your car then come home and have 150 miles left for the next day you are forgetting the simple fact that as you sleep your car is recharging (from your household supply) so by morning will have 250 miles again. Also the 350 mile range isn't the issue you make it out to be. A supercharger can put back 80% of the charge in just 20 minutes - a great excuse to stop for a coffee mid journey. In continental Europe there are plenty of supercharger stations around allowing easy route planning past one for pretty much any journey. As the network expands this will only improve. As usual though the UK is behind the game when it comes to adopting new technologies so the infrastructure here is not as good as it needs to be - Yet!
There certainly some applications EVs are not suitable for - predominently those involving rural locations as the infrastructure is largely centred on main routes and cities - as you'd expect as that's where the population density is. Again - its not unreasonable to expect that to change and for charging points to become as ubiquitous as petrol pumps.
As for a normal sized car with that range - if the lease price and BIK is comparable to a 330 BMW I'd rather the Tesla - its a bigger more comfortable car with higher levels of performance and (largely) free to use (especially if you can claim mileage allowances!). Best of all its not a diesel. The EV is here to stay and the technology will only improve.
I was hugely impressed with the one I went in when we last went to the flat in Amsterdam. Quiet and refined and the taxi driver was getting a full days usage around the city from a single charge. The only negative he had was that in the coldest part of winter the battery charge was noticeably less and sometimes needed a mid day top up.
loose cannon said:
As I stated my m8 shares a house with 5 people they all have different jobs and drive different locations
2 cars sit on the drive the rest sit on the road were are the charge point s
So, and this might be a shocking idea, many EVs aren't suitable for him? That doesn't mean they aren't suitable for the 90% of the population who live with a single familial unit per property with at most two of them working. 2 cars sit on the drive the rest sit on the road were are the charge point s
No-one has ever attempted to claim that EVs will be suitable for everyone, just that they are suitable for a huge proportion (almost certainly a majority, in fact) of people. Or at least that they would be if they weren't so expensive.
Edited by kambites on Tuesday 13th October 11:18
walm said:
16g per kWh for nuclear.
300kw batteries which get you about 3 miles/kwh.
So 16g gets you 3 miles.
So roughly 5g/mile 3.3g/km.
The worst is coal at 900g/kWh so you need to multiply the above by c.50.
The average for the UK is I think 460g/kwh so roughly 100g/km.
Obviously the govt is trying to get more lower carbon power into the grid so that should improve.
They should encourage more EV owners to get solar panels / Micro wind turbines to charge their cars, that way it really would be low CO2300kw batteries which get you about 3 miles/kwh.
So 16g gets you 3 miles.
So roughly 5g/mile 3.3g/km.
The worst is coal at 900g/kWh so you need to multiply the above by c.50.
The average for the UK is I think 460g/kwh so roughly 100g/km.
Obviously the govt is trying to get more lower carbon power into the grid so that should improve.
I'd love to be totally self sufficient Electricity wise but it's realistic affordable goal.
loose cannon said:
As I stated my m8 shares a house with 5 people they all have different jobs and drive different locations
2 cars sit on the drive the rest sit on the road were are the charge point s
Its easy to find individual instances where they won't work, but for many they will work very very well. 2 cars sit on the drive the rest sit on the road were are the charge point s
Do they get petrol when parked now? Of course not. So in his instance its a slightly inconvenient 20 minutes at a supercharger point to 'refuel' each of the cars.
Any that do need an overnight top up can go on the drive.
Also, how many of the five cars are used daily for 250 miles? I'm pretty sure not all of them would require a recharge at the same time....
loose cannon said:
As I stated my m8 shares a house with 5 people they all have different jobs and drive different locations
2 cars sit on the drive the rest sit on the road were are the charge point s
I too can come up with an example that shows that an EV isn't suitable for 100% of people.2 cars sit on the drive the rest sit on the road were are the charge point s
Fortunately for Tesla most people don't live with 5 m8s all of whom are incapable of buying an extension cable.
It's not shocking at all it's what I have been banging on about lol
They don't currently work for me and they don't currently work for the masses
On a tight ship, as I have stated previous show me one that does what people require at a cheap price point, there isn't any
As of yet until that day I'm out
They don't currently work for me and they don't currently work for the masses
On a tight ship, as I have stated previous show me one that does what people require at a cheap price point, there isn't any
As of yet until that day I'm out
loose cannon said:
and they don't currently work for the masses
That is where I think you're simply wrong. They very much do work for a large proportion of the masses. The only thing stopping them from taking huge market share is the price. To offer a counter to your examples, of the people I know well enough to actually know, I do not know a single person who couldn't easily manage with only an EV and only one or two for whom it would be a significant inconvenience. At the rate things are going, I'm confident that 50% of the cars in the work car park will not have an ICE connected to the wheels within ten years.
Edited by kambites on Tuesday 13th October 11:27
loose cannon said:
It's not shocking at all it's what I have been banging on about lol
They don't currently work for me and they don't currently work for the masses
On a tight ship, as I have stated previous show me one that does what people require at a cheap price point, there isn't any
As of yet until that day I'm out
Don't currently work for the masses? Really? Most car owners off newer vehicles don't have access to a driveway with an extension lead? Or do more than 200 miles a day? They don't currently work for me and they don't currently work for the masses
On a tight ship, as I have stated previous show me one that does what people require at a cheap price point, there isn't any
As of yet until that day I'm out
All those school run mums really do such vast mileages to get little Jimmy to school? I think if you say down and looked at it for many people they would work perfectly well. The only current issue is purchase price but that will change as the technology becomes adopted and appropriate finance schemes developed. Lets face it the lease is probably the most common way to finance a vehicle now so purchase price is not the obstacle it was.
kambites said:
I meant I'm not entirely convinced the car division will ever make money; nor am I convinced he particularly wants it to. I rather suspect his business plan is to prove that EVs are not only viable but highly desirable to push mainstream car companies into producing them in serious numbers while he quietly corners the market for battery production.
Control the batteries and the charge points and if the market becomes standard then your revenue from your battery factory and from leasing your charge points will dwarf what you can make from cars. I suspect you are right.I liked seeing Porsche's concept but found it amusing that it was based on all made up numbers based on assumptions as to where cost and tech will be in 5 years time, whereas Tesla are already there and heading towards controlling a significant element of the bookend revenues for the sector.
Meanwhile, your competitors will be having to handle the very significant business model shift required to sell cars which don't really need much maintenance and don't really have many moving parts and can be updated over the telephone. I think we caught a glimpse of that struggle with the launching of the i3 and some of the comedic reasons BMW had to dream up to bring the cars back into a dealer for second line customer spending.
Otispunkmeyer said:
I am a big EV fan, but I don't for one second think charging up will be free to use for any period of time other than now for the early adopters. Eventually we'll be paying similar prices to what we are now for full tank of fuel. This is already happening with some charge points (granted not the Tesla ones) but some points were basically charging you for parking and a fee for the electric that equated to around £5 a charge (or 80% charge as it is). When you get back to working the pence per mile. Its no cheaper than a decent diesel.
Given the crap state of the power generation in this country and all the stupid green subs, where is all this free electricity actually going to come from?
At some point it won't be free....but for the foreseeable it's contractual. Whether you consider the hidden cost as being inclusive of the purchase price, is largely irrelevant. You pay for the car, and fuel (and tax) are free. Given the crap state of the power generation in this country and all the stupid green subs, where is all this free electricity actually going to come from?
Also bear in mind that these supercharging stations are charged when electricity is (near) zero cost anyway - think Economy7 on steroids. They have the power storage and output of "medium sized factories", thus the cost will be lower regardless.
As for the parking, if you club together the parking AND the electricity, then yes. But as you would need to pay the parking anyway, it isn't really a cost. Plus plenty of sites offset one against the other giving you either free charge, or free parking if you charge....and parking bays even closer than disabled spaces
jonny996 said:
Ares said:
akirk said:
It is a good marketing exercise - but really, free motoring?
Of course it isn't - you are paying for it somewhere, and if Tesla is not going to go bankrupt you are either paying for it in the cost of the car, or it is a loss-leader to gain traction and once critical mass is hit there will be a cost... The electricity company is not donating their power free of charge...
there are lots of +ves / -ves about EVs, but that is a smoke an mirrors game
No, their supercharger network (23 sites in the UK, 300+ worldwide) is free to use. Free. As in no cost, for the lifetime of the car. And a full charge in 20mins.Of course it isn't - you are paying for it somewhere, and if Tesla is not going to go bankrupt you are either paying for it in the cost of the car, or it is a loss-leader to gain traction and once critical mass is hit there will be a cost... The electricity company is not donating their power free of charge...
there are lots of +ves / -ves about EVs, but that is a smoke an mirrors game
Are you paying for it in the price of the car? The prices didn't go up when it was launched, but when the Model S is actually getting close to similar costs like for like with ICE competitors, its an increasingly compelling argument.
Ares said:
No, their supercharger network (23 sites in the UK, 300+ worldwide) is free to use. Free. As in no cost, for the lifetime of the car. And a full charge in 20mins.
Excellent - the UK is 243,610km² in area and there are 23 sites, we'll all be driving EVs in no time 
Compare that to c.8,500 petrol stations...sly fox said:
I thought Elon's long term plan for Tesla was to make a fortune on autonomous cars?
They have already talked about a Tesla version of Uber, where the car drives to your door, picks you up and takes you to a destination, then can find a charging station , and return back to a business or 'owners' house.
It could mean they decimate the taxi/minicab/Uber market, and also take a big chunk of hire car business too.
Have you seen their latest tech? The auto charging snake? It can move itself, find the charge point of the car, and plug itself in.
This is designed for car self-charging. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMM0lRfX6YI
So it's not necessarily the cars he intends to make money on, its the % fee per mile of a taxi fare or car rental charge. There are even talks that as a Tesla owner , you could 'rent' your car out for the day to make money, ie both you and Tesla take a cut of a fare when you were not using your car for the day.
The real problem with the autonomous minicab concept is that the model seems to be based around the purpose of the driver being to drive. The actual reality is that the chimp in the front clearly isn't there to drive the vehicle as a ZX80 could do a superior job of that but he is in fact there to moderate and deal with all the cum, blood, vomit, piss and pooh the customers would be depositing in vast quantities without such human regulation.They have already talked about a Tesla version of Uber, where the car drives to your door, picks you up and takes you to a destination, then can find a charging station , and return back to a business or 'owners' house.
It could mean they decimate the taxi/minicab/Uber market, and also take a big chunk of hire car business too.
Have you seen their latest tech? The auto charging snake? It can move itself, find the charge point of the car, and plug itself in.
This is designed for car self-charging. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMM0lRfX6YI
So it's not necessarily the cars he intends to make money on, its the % fee per mile of a taxi fare or car rental charge. There are even talks that as a Tesla owner , you could 'rent' your car out for the day to make money, ie both you and Tesla take a cut of a fare when you were not using your car for the day.
50% of the autonomous minicabs that arrive at your door will be awash with faecal waste and bodily fluids. And that is why that market won't ever exist.
Only the mentally deranged and specialist pervert will want to pay money to travel inside what will obstensively be a Wetherspoon's gents toilet at closing on a Saturday night.
AyBee said:
Ares said:
No, their supercharger network (23 sites in the UK, 300+ worldwide) is free to use. Free. As in no cost, for the lifetime of the car. And a full charge in 20mins.
Excellent - the UK is 243,610km² in area and there are 23 sites, we'll all be driving EVs in no time Compare that to c.8,500 petrol stations...loose cannon said:
kambites said:
I'd be interested to see if you can find a video of the same from any of the competing ICE powered cars. It's just not something people do with a bloody great luxury saloon car.
Your missing the point I'm talking about the technology not the shape of the car, I can go out on a Friday evening drive 200 odd miles including a fair few performance blasts and still come back with over half a tank of fuel leaving me with another 150 miles range show me a electric car that can do that !!!
The only cars that can out accelerate this are the LaFerrari, 918 and P1 (just). Could they do 200 mile, including a chunk of performance blasts, and still leave you with half a tank/150miles range?
Could any sub four-second petrol car, get a 350 mile range with a lot of performance blasts?
kambites said:
That is where I think you're simply wrong. They very much do work for a large proportion of the masses. The only thing stopping them from taking huge market share is the price.
To offer a counter to your examples, of the people I know well enough to actually know, I do not know a single person who couldn't easily manage with only an EV.
Yep have to agree, I live in the suburbs of London and baring possibly 2 or 3 journeys a year, there is no trip I do now that I couldn't do with an EV and if I can visit a charge point on the way then even those 2 or 3 long trips are also possible and it would be the same for nearly all of my friends\family. To offer a counter to your examples, of the people I know well enough to actually know, I do not know a single person who couldn't easily manage with only an EV.
The only thing stopping me from having an EV as a family run around at the moment is that the one's I would consider (Tesla, i8) are too expensive for what they offer and the cheaper offerings look like crap (leaf, i3 etc).
If someone like Alfa Romeo did the new Giulia with an EV engine for £35k-£40k, I'd be all over it.
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