UK Head of Tesla.... Impressive

[lostkiwi]

Elysium said:

Access to the supercharger network is not free. Tesla have rolled the costs into the purchase price. Until recently supercharger access was listed as an optional extra on the 70d and 85d a few months ago. It was about £2,200 from memory.

Unless you happen to live next door to one of these sites there is no possibility that fuel costs will be anywhere near zero. The network is still very sparsely populated:

http://www.teslamotors.com/en_GB/findus#/bounds/65...

Total number of superchargers serving the East Midlands = 2

One within a few miles of where I live and the other within a few miles of where I work (and spookily almost the closest place for petrol too).

[anonymous-user]

lostkiwi said:

Yep thats an £80k investment for a luxury car with comparable performance to an M5 that costs er.... £80k.
Or a £50k investment in a car that's comparable to any other £50k luxury car (but with more performance than most).
Still can't see your point.

It's simple.

IMO the Tesla is a blunt, but very fast tool. It is very new so not many have hit the second hand market. I think it is too early to talk about long term reliability with them.

And no, I cannot get over the price. If I wanted a mega range car with slugs of torque then I'd be looking at an Alpina bi-turbo. With the 50K left I would fund a very quick Caterham.

That is my point. As has been said they are the future but it's a long way off. This wouldn't stop me from a commuter EV but I am not convinced that i'd get very bored with 'just' acceleration...there's more to driving for me.

[kambites]

So what you're saying is that you don't see the point in big luxury performance saloons? Nothing directly to do with the Tesla at all?

For what it's worth, I pretty much agree. I have no wish to own a model-S or an AMG E/S-class or an M5, or any other car in this sort of market. That doesn't mean I don't find such cars enormously impressive, though.

Edited by kambites on Thursday 15th October 09:54

[liner33]

Makes me laugh with some of the arguments here "I wouldnt buy a Tesla because its flawed technology/too expensive to run/potential bork factor/a hassle to charge" etc etc etc

Whilst its clear that since they currently drive a 15 year old diesel saloon the harsh truth is they clearly aren't in the market for any £80k+ car and are looking for any other possible reason to dismiss them apart from the reality

Personally I wouldnt buy a Veyron as I dont like the cupholders

[lostkiwi]

yonex said:

lostkiwi said:

Yep thats an £80k investment for a luxury car with comparable performance to an M5 that costs er.... £80k.
Or a £50k investment in a car that's comparable to any other £50k luxury car (but with more performance than most).
Still can't see your point.

It's simple.

IMO the Tesla is a blunt, but very fast tool. It is very new so not many have hit the second hand market. I think it is too early to talk about long term reliability with them.

And no, I cannot get over the price. If I wanted a mega range car with slugs of torque then I'd be looking at an Alpina bi-turbo. With the 50K left I would fund a very quick Caterham.

That is my point. As has been said they are the future but it's a long way off. This wouldn't stop me from a commuter EV but I am not convinced that i'd get very bored with 'just' acceleration...there's more to driving for me.

Ok so its not for you.
It is suitable for a good many. Just because it doesn't suit you doesn't mean its bad or poor technology or anything else negative.
I can't afford one. Pure and simple. But if I was in the market I would definitely buy one. The savings in fuel would easily pay for a fun drivers car and in the interim my daily commutes would be at zero fuel cost. For me what's not to like?
I get a big high performance luxury car that costs me next to nothing to run in fuel terms. The jury is still out on servicing and long term costs but frankly if I can save £100 a week on fuel I don't really care so much about them as they are costs an ICE car would have anyway to a certain extent.
The spare money from fuel savings will more than offset the ownership costs of a weekend toy.
Sounds pretty good to me.

[Thankyou4calling]

There's no doubt in my mind that the Tesla will gain a foothold (not a stronghold) in the premium saloon market.

I wonder what the used price will be for a five year old example?

Do people think they will be priced at a similar level to other cars, say 40% of new cost, at that age, command a premium or drop like a stone?

I know it'll only be thoughts but i'm intrigued.

[anonymous-user]

kambites said:

So what you're saying is that you don't see the point in big luxury performance saloons? Nothing directly to do with the Tesla at all?

For what it's worth, I pretty much agree. I have no wish to own a model-S or an AMG E/S-class or an M5, or any other car in this sort of market. That doesn't mean I don't find such cars enormously impressive, though.

Edited by anonymous-user on Thursday 15th October 09:54

I do, but I find it ironic when the chief motivator seems to be 'zero fuel costs' when, in comparison a £30K mile muncher affords one hell of a lot of fuel all things considered (depreciation, purchase price) and based upon 15K miles a year how long will it take to even break even?

It is an impressive piece of engineering I totally agree as is the Prius.

[RobM77]

ILoveMondeo said:

RobM77 said:

AnotherClarkey said:

ILoveMondeo said:

(and does anyone actually get 50MPG average in ANY car, ever? Maybe the most frugal diesel...)

Yes, very easily - 56mpg average over almost 100,000 miles in a Prius.

I've got a pretty normal 320d (an '07 with 131k on the clock), not the ED or anything (i/e/ 'the most frugal diesel' as above) and I average 51-52. My Dad has the ED and is averaging about 60, despite most of his driving being back roads (C and B roads). I use all the revs and am frequently on full throttle, so I don't pussy foot it to get that - if I do drive like my Mum then I get up into the mid 50s quite easily.

Indeed, neither are really in the same class as a model s are they? Prius definitely not, 3 series closer but I'm still of the option it should be compared to relatively high performance 5-series size/spec cars. Otherwise you may as well compare it to a 125cc bike, which can do 100mpg, it'll never be as efficient and therefore is rubbish.

Since when did you set those bounds on your question? You asked whether anyone gets 50+mpg in a normal car (other than a Frugal diesel, Prius etc), and my response was yes, plenty do, me included (I drive one of the most common/normal cars on the road).

If you're talking about large luxury cars then yes, you're quite right, and that's one of the brilliant things about the Tesla - they've chosen a very good sector of the market as the economy stands out against the competition.

[otolith]

yonex said:

I do, but I find it ironic when the chief motivator seems to be 'zero fuel costs' when, in comparison a £30K mile muncher affords one hell of a lot of fuel all things considered (depreciation, purchase price) and based upon 15K miles a year how long will it take to even break even?

Is that a brand new vs second hand argument you are making?

[lostkiwi]

yonex said:

kambites said:

So what you're saying is that you don't see the point in big luxury performance saloons? Nothing directly to do with the Tesla at all?

For what it's worth, I pretty much agree. I have no wish to own a model-S or an AMG E/S-class or an M5, or any other car in this sort of market. That doesn't mean I don't find such cars enormously impressive, though.

Edited by kambites on Thursday 15th October 09:54

I do, but I find it ironic when the chief motivator seems to be 'zero fuel costs' when, in comparison a £30K mile muncher affords one hell of a lot of fuel all things considered (depreciation, purchase price) and based upon 15K miles a year how long will it take to even break even?

It is an impressive piece of engineering I totally agree as is the Prius.

But you aren't comparing apples with apples then are you?
If you were in the market for a new high performance luxury saloon then the Tesla stacks up well price wise against its competition. As a side benefit you get very good running costs (in fuel terms).
Yes we all know that if you buy a mile muncher from a lower segment or secondhand the savings will buy a lot of fuel but thats the same for petrol or diesel as well.
People buy diesels to save money on fuel costs (lets face it there is little there reason to buy them) and the Tesla is just an extension of that with the added benefit over a diesel of hypercar performance. Handling should be pretty good (not speaking from experience here) as well as all the batteries and motors are mounted very low down and fairly centrally between the wheels.

[ILoveMondeo]

RobM77 said:

Since when did you set those bounds on your question? You asked whether anyone gets 50+mpg in a normal car (other than a Frugal diesel, Prius etc), and my response was yes, plenty do, me included (I drive one of the most common/normal cars on the road).

If you're talking about large luxury cars then yes, you're quite right, and that's one of the brilliant things about the Tesla - they've chosen a very good sector of the market as the economy stands out against the competition.

ILoveMondeo said:

A fair comparison to a Tesla S is NOT a 50Mpg econo-box... (and does anyone actually get 50MPG average in ANY car, ever? Maybe the most frugal diesel...)

It's a 5-series/XF/a6 class of car surely (maybe even 7/xj/a8??), so 35Mpg AT BEST for the diesel variants is the best comparison... more like 20Mpg for the V8/V10 petrol beasts of each model to compare to the tesla in performance.

There...... I was being a bit facetious, sorry, but 50MPG in a 5-series a like car doesnt happen, not if it's a vaguely "warm" version, which is needed to compare to the tesla even slightly... XF S, 335D, etc... my XF 3.0D just about get's 40mpg at speed on the motorway, we're not talking triple figures just high-ish doubles, on a long run... sitting behind an artic doesnt count.

[anonymous-user]

lostkiwi said:

But you aren't comparing apples with apples then are you?
If you were in the market for a new high performance luxury saloon then the Tesla stacks up well price wise against its competition. As a side benefit you get very good running costs (in fuel terms).
Yes we all know that if you buy a mile muncher from a lower segment or secondhand the savings will buy a lot of fuel but thats the same for petrol or diesel as well.
People buy diesels to save money on fuel costs (lets face it there is little there reason to buy them) and the Tesla is just an extension of that with the added benefit over a diesel of hypercar performance. Handling should be pretty good (not speaking from experience here) as well as all the batteries and motors are mounted very low down and fairly centrally between the wheels.

What can it be compared to like for like, it's in a niche. Very rapid, a bit bland in the flesh, £100K.

S Class, 7 series or smaller, i8?

[ILoveMondeo]

topless360 said:

Most diesel 5 series/XF etc will comfortably get near 45-50mpg on a motorway drive. Petrol powered cars maybe nearer 40mpg, the Ford Ecoboost (not a direct comparison I know) gives us 60mpg during summer. There are plenty of ICE cars that will give you very good economy.

Also, in my book you can't really compare the performance of a 400bhp EV to a 400bhp ICE car. Even a 700+ bhp Tesla feels underwhelming after 50mph as the linear power delivery exaggerates the drop off in acceleration due to increased wind resistance.

That said the feeling from 0-40mph in Insane mode is, well, insane!

Add to that the interior and refinement of a Model S is nowhere near the same quality as you get in similarly priced rivals e.g. Quattroporte, S Class etc.

Completely agree on the refinement against a Maserati..

What I'm getting at is that to compare the cost of "free" motoring, vs "economic" motoring you have to compare some vaguely similar cars... YES the EV is going to cost more, that's the premium you pay for "not-so-free motoring.."

What I'm getting at is that for a fair comparison, forget the price of the Teslas for a moment, and just just the car, size/comfort/refinement/speed/etc...

It's pretty similar to a well specced 5-series/XF ? No? One of those in well-specced guise will be 50k-ish... right? So that's where I think we should compare the tesla too, ok it's 30k more expense, how much (if anything) does it save over a 50k XF 3.0V6 S if you do XYZ number of miles a week?

So we're not talking 2.0 5-series/A6, boggo spec. We're talking 335D with lots of options, S6 maybe, or S5, or 3.0D minimum, XF S probably, that sort of thing?

I just dont think it's fair to compare the tesla to a ecoboost/prius/50cc moped and say they are cheaper to run so therefore the EV is a st idea. It's got to be a car that's similar in the usual benchmarks for the model/class of car.

[RobM77]

ILoveMondeo said:

RobM77 said:

Since when did you set those bounds on your question? You asked whether anyone gets 50+mpg in a normal car (other than a Frugal diesel, Prius etc), and my response was yes, plenty do, me included (I drive one of the most common/normal cars on the road).

If you're talking about large luxury cars then yes, you're quite right, and that's one of the brilliant things about the Tesla - they've chosen a very good sector of the market as the economy stands out against the competition.

ILoveMondeo said:

A fair comparison to a Tesla S is NOT a 50Mpg econo-box... (and does anyone actually get 50MPG average in ANY car, ever? Maybe the most frugal diesel...)

It's a 5-series/XF/a6 class of car surely (maybe even 7/xj/a8??), so 35Mpg AT BEST for the diesel variants is the best comparison... more like 20Mpg for the V8/V10 petrol beasts of each model to compare to the tesla in performance.

There...... I was being a bit facetious, sorry, but 50MPG in a 5-series a like car doesnt happen, not if it's a vaguely "warm" version, which is needed to compare to the tesla even slightly... XF S, 335D, etc... my XF 3.0D just about get's 40mpg at speed on the motorway, we're not talking triple figures just high-ish doubles, on a long run... sitting behind an artic doesnt count.

My apologies, I was responding to your quote in the ongoing discussion - I hadn't read your original post.

[bodhi]

Colonial said:

Smart phones are not suitable for older people used to traditional phones.

Computers require use to become familiar with.

Planes originally only had a limited range and were hugely expensive to fly on.

On and on and on.

What is one piece of technology THAT DOES ACTUALLY SUIT EVERYONE?

Um, at a guess, the ICE? Suitable for everything from Mavis popping to the shops to getting all the stuff in the shops for Mavis to buy in the first place. From powering the equipment that built the roads that Mavis drove on to get there to the F1 cars that the roadworkers watch when they're not working. It's got such a massive breadth of abilities that anything claiming to be "the future" is going to have to be pretty versatile to replace it.

Which is half my problem with the Tesla and EV's in general - some of the hype and hubris around them is laughable, and really does make the proponents look a little bit silly - it's almost as if the Tesla fanboys have inherited Musk's complete inability to take any criticism of the big idea whatsoever. They may be a part of the future, and for built up areas they do make a lot of sense, but come on folks, let's not get too carried away.

[walm]

yonex said:

I do, but I find it ironic when the chief motivator seems to be 'zero fuel costs' when, in comparison a £30K mile muncher affords one hell of a lot of fuel all things considered (depreciation, purchase price) and based upon 15K miles a year how long will it take to even break even?

I think you have that wrong.
You need to be in the market for an exec saloon around £50-80k.
Then you might consider the Tesla S.
Then if you do decent mileage, you would notice that a Tesla could save you several thousand a year on fuel and that might sway you from a Jag/BMW/Merc/Audi.
Although if you are spending that much on a car the odd thousand here and there on fuel over three years may well not make much of a difference.

However, what we are really talking about is if/when Tesla launch something around £30k.
i.e. a more mass-market car.
Hopefully one that doesn't look like a ridiculous i3.
Just a normal Mondeo/Golf/A4/3-series type thing.

The people in that market will care a LOT more about fuel costs.
Hence the Tesla will have a real edge on a total-cost-of-ownership perspective and I suspect be very popular.

[J4CKO]

I wonder how much it costs Tesla to build a Model S versus say how much it costs Jaguar to produce an XF ?

[kambites]

J4CKO said:

I wonder how much it costs Tesla to build a Model S versus say how much it costs Jaguar to produce an XF ?

I think that's a very difficult question to answer because at the moment Tesla are pouring money into refining their production process so the Tesla's production cost will be constantly changing (hopefully falling). I would guess at the moment that, including the battery cost, the Tesla is a lot more expensive to produce.

[Guvernator]

J4CKO said:

I wonder how much it costs Tesla to build a Model S versus say how much it costs Jaguar to produce an XF ?

I'd imagine a Tesla would actually be cheaper to build as it's a simpler car in terms of the moving bits, what pushes the price up is the cost of all those batteries which are still quite expensive and the cost of all the R&D of designing a whole new way of propelling a car as well as all the supporting infrastructure.

[London424]

For those that are interested Tesla have released their new software update

http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/your-autopilot-has...

I can't remember if it was this or another thread talking about autonmous vehicles and some pronouncing it won't happen in their life time. Well here's another step down the road.

Also, in case some weren't aware. Apple are going to be launching an EV (probably 2019), and just think what that will do for the market with all their 'fan boys'

http://www.macrumors.com/2015/09/21/apple-car-deve...