UK Head of Tesla.... Impressive
Discussion
bodhi said:
That's kind of inferred from such grandiose statements as "It's the future" and "They will make petrol stations obsolete".
Hmm, I wouldn't say the former means the same as "it's what everyone will be driving in the future"; just "it's what will become the norm in the future" which I suspect is true (although exactly when is anyone's guess). The latter, I've never heard anyone say, at least not without tongue firmly in cheek. bodhi said:
London424 said:
Nobody is claiming everyone should want one!!
That's kind of inferred from such grandiose statements as "It's the future" and "They will make petrol stations obsolete". To think that EV's aren't going to be a big part of the automotive world in the years to come is pretty silly. At the moment Tesla have a car that competes in the 50 - 100k bracket. If you are in a market for a car of that type then you would be silly not to consider them.
However, if you:
- regularly drive 300+ miles in one stretch
- don't currently have off street parking
- want to have a convertible
- want to hear a V8/V10/V12 engine
- etc etc
Then looking at a Tesla isn't really for you. And guess what, no one is trying to force you in to one.
bodhi said:
Or maybe, just maybe people are raising valid concerns with the car and being rebuffed by the fanboys who can't understand why everyone doesn't want one?
Lots of people aren't raising valid concerns though, are they? Lots of people are raising knee-jerk dismissals based on assertions of fact that they either don't have evidence for or which have been actively rebuffed by counter-evidence.On the contrary, the 'fanboys' seem to consistently say 'These have potential and suit a surprising number of needs, but are limited in XYZ'. Whereas the 'sensible'
The fact that a luxury saloon costs £50-80k is not a valid concern, and is irrelevant to the principle of EVs.
The fact that it contains motors rather than an ICE is not a valid concern as electric motors are significantly more reliable than ICEs.
Why bother labouring the point?
The fact that EV subsidies are not guaranteed is a valid concern, and has been discussed in this thread - mainly by supporters of EVs.
The fact that infrastructure is still very much in development is a valid concern, but plugging something in once a week strangely seems to be significantly more of a chore for those who don't like EVs. I presume hoovering is equally more tiresome for these folk.
There are plenty of others, but you get my point.
luckystrike said:
bodhi said:
Or maybe, just maybe people are raising valid concerns with the car and being rebuffed by the fanboys who can't understand why everyone doesn't want one?
Lots of people aren't raising valid concerns though, are they? Lots of people are raising knee-jerk dismissals based on assertions of fact that they either don't have evidence for or which have been actively rebuffed by counter-evidence.On the contrary, the 'fanboys' seem to consistently say 'These have potential and suit a surprising number of needs, but are limited in XYZ'. Whereas the 'sensible'
The fact that a luxury saloon costs £50-80k is not a valid concern, and is irrelevant to the principle of EVs.
The fact that it contains motors rather than an ICE is not a valid concern as electric motors are significantly more reliable than ICEs.
Why bother labouring the point?
The fact that EV subsidies are not guaranteed is a valid concern, and has been discussed in this thread - mainly by supporters of EVs.
The fact that infrastructure is still very much in development is a valid concern, but plugging something in once a week strangely seems to be significantly more of a chore for those who don't like EVs. I presume hoovering is equally more tiresome for these folk.
There are plenty of others, but you get my point.
Strange how you say that price isn't an issue, then go on about only having to plug in once a week with a Tesla - which was never an issue riased - my issue raised was that with the EV's that aren't 80k a year, like the Leaf, Zoe etc WOULD require plugging in every day, and unless batteries get massively cheaper, that is still going to be the case.
I see many of the concerns people raise as showing interest in the Tesla and in the technology, at least that's the case for me. I find it fascinating and exciting that EV tech is now mainstream and you can walk into a Nissan, VW or Tesla dealership and order a completely normal road car that just happens to be 100% electric.
bodhi said:
Yes, I do get your point. It's kind of backing up my original statement, so thanks for that!
... my issue raised was that with the EV's that aren't 80k a year, like the Leaf, Zoe etc WOULD require plugging in every day, and unless batteries get massively cheaper, that is still going to be the case.
And is that really such a big problem?... my issue raised was that with the EV's that aren't 80k a year, like the Leaf, Zoe etc WOULD require plugging in every day, and unless batteries get massively cheaper, that is still going to be the case.
RobM77 said:
I see many of the concerns people raise as showing interest in the Tesla and in the technology, at least that's the case for me. I find it fascinating and exciting that EV tech is now mainstream and you can walk into a Nissan, VW or Tesla dealership and order a completely normal road car that just happens to be 100% electric.
For me the Tesla is the game changer, they are a huge step ahead from the Nissan/Mitsu/etc offering. EV Gen2 if you like....and its that that is exciting. BMW i3 gets close to that too, but still a generation behind Tesla.The lesser 'Gen1' EVs, are at least in part compromised from their ICE counterpart. The Tesla takes the fight fairly and squarely to it's ICE contemporaries and bloodies a lot of exec noses in doing so. Same cost, lots of upsides. Only for the high-non-motorway-mileage/park away from the house drivers are they in no way a viable option (....and the pedantic ludites that want to smell the fuel on their hands and will use whatever argument to prove it is not just subjective ;-) )
I've had a test drive in a couple of Teslas, and a mate of mine in California has one. He switched from years of performance BMWs and seems to love it. I'm looking at a possible new job with a long commute, and the maths works out something like:
150 miles round trip per day, 5 days a week, 47 weeks per year, mostly on fast A roads or motorway.
Current car (2003 XJ6) does about 30MPG on a run, so lets take this as a target for a nice riding car with adequate performance. I'll ignore servicing as the costs look similar to the Tesla.
Petrol:
150 miles @ 30mpg = 5 gallons per day = 22l
22 litres @ £1.15 = £25.30 per day
This is £5945 a year
Tesla:
Fuel costs zero or negligible (there's a Supercharger near home and reachable at lunch times from the office)
Lease cost about £800 per month, or £9600 a year
That means a new Tesla costs me about £300 a month net, which I think is reasonable for a luxury performance saloon. When I have to replace the Jag, I'm looking at spending £15-25K on something used, which equates to about £700 a month if I use savings and "pay it back" to myself - plus the petrol costs! I'm assuming depreciation to zero of course - actually the Tesla would be worth 50% of new price (Tesla guarantee) while a used car would lose more with 90K extra miles on it.
Man maths? Maybe, but it seems to work. Add on some non-commuting mileage and it's even better.
150 miles round trip per day, 5 days a week, 47 weeks per year, mostly on fast A roads or motorway.
Current car (2003 XJ6) does about 30MPG on a run, so lets take this as a target for a nice riding car with adequate performance. I'll ignore servicing as the costs look similar to the Tesla.
Petrol:
150 miles @ 30mpg = 5 gallons per day = 22l
22 litres @ £1.15 = £25.30 per day
This is £5945 a year
Tesla:
Fuel costs zero or negligible (there's a Supercharger near home and reachable at lunch times from the office)
Lease cost about £800 per month, or £9600 a year
That means a new Tesla costs me about £300 a month net, which I think is reasonable for a luxury performance saloon. When I have to replace the Jag, I'm looking at spending £15-25K on something used, which equates to about £700 a month if I use savings and "pay it back" to myself - plus the petrol costs! I'm assuming depreciation to zero of course - actually the Tesla would be worth 50% of new price (Tesla guarantee) while a used car would lose more with 90K extra miles on it.
Man maths? Maybe, but it seems to work. Add on some non-commuting mileage and it's even better.
bodhi said:
Yes, I do get your point. It's kind of backing up my original statement, so thanks for that!
Strange how you say that price isn't an issue, then go on about only having to plug in once a week with a Tesla - which was never an issue riased - my issue raised was that with the EV's that aren't 80k a year, like the Leaf, Zoe etc WOULD require plugging in every day, and unless batteries get massively cheaper, that is still going to be the case.
It was more of a general comment rather than a specific rebuttal to your post and several have used range as a specific downside to the Tesla, which is what I was referring to above Strange how you say that price isn't an issue, then go on about only having to plug in once a week with a Tesla - which was never an issue riased - my issue raised was that with the EV's that aren't 80k a year, like the Leaf, Zoe etc WOULD require plugging in every day, and unless batteries get massively cheaper, that is still going to be the case.
FWIW I'm not an EV car fan - I like good cars, and I dislike bad cars.
Lots of EVs are 'bad' cars in terms of their limitations to ICE equivalents - the G-Whiz is the clear poster child here, but Leafs, Zoes, i3s etc. have clear limitations from both purchase cost and practicality points of view, which I completely understand and appreciate.
The Tesla, however, by and large does not have these limitations when compared to the market in which is it selling. Thus, my issue is when people flick between lumping the Tesla in with all EVs to manufacture non-sequiturs - 'leafs etc have bad range therefore I have to plug my Tesla in every 5 minutes for 2 days', or 'there's no point running any electric car because this one costs £80k and that's silly for an old lady doing 2,000 miles a year'. Both of those are disjointed arguments which crop up lots in the thread.
The Model S shows that an EV can be very competitive in its market. The fact that other markets (sub £20k hatchback or small exec saloon for example) don't currently contain and effective alternative EV is not an indicator that EVs won't work in the market, as the model 3 will likely soon show for compact executives.
Plugging in something like a Zoe daily is a consideration, you're correct. As others have said though, this isn't necessarily the problem for a lot of people that some are making it out to be, and as people have gone to great lengths to say if it is a problem significant enough to prevent someone from buying one then nobody is expecting them to
Edited by luckystrike on Thursday 15th October 16:37
mr_spock said:
I've had a test drive in a couple of Teslas, and a mate of mine in California has one. He switched from years of performance BMWs and seems to love it. I'm looking at a possible new job with a long commute, and the maths works out something like:
150 miles round trip per day, 5 days a week, 47 weeks per year, mostly on fast A roads or motorway.
Current car (2003 XJ6) does about 30MPG on a run, so lets take this as a target for a nice riding car with adequate performance. I'll ignore servicing as the costs look similar to the Tesla.
Petrol:
150 miles @ 30mpg = 5 gallons per day = 22l
22 litres @ £1.15 = £25.30 per day
This is £5945 a year
Tesla:
Fuel costs zero or negligible (there's a Supercharger near home and reachable at lunch times from the office)
Lease cost about £800 per month, or £9600 a year
That means a new Tesla costs me about £300 a month net, which I think is reasonable for a luxury performance saloon. When I have to replace the Jag, I'm looking at spending £15-25K on something used, which equates to about £700 a month if I use savings and "pay it back" to myself - plus the petrol costs! I'm assuming depreciation to zero of course - actually the Tesla would be worth 50% of new price (Tesla guarantee) while a used car would lose more with 90K extra miles on it.
Man maths? Maybe, but it seems to work. Add on some non-commuting mileage and it's even better.
Add in the tax break (massive if a company purchase) and the brand new exec car with 8yr unlimited warranty Vs £15/25k snotter (and the costs it will come with), costs stack up even more in the Tesla's favour.150 miles round trip per day, 5 days a week, 47 weeks per year, mostly on fast A roads or motorway.
Current car (2003 XJ6) does about 30MPG on a run, so lets take this as a target for a nice riding car with adequate performance. I'll ignore servicing as the costs look similar to the Tesla.
Petrol:
150 miles @ 30mpg = 5 gallons per day = 22l
22 litres @ £1.15 = £25.30 per day
This is £5945 a year
Tesla:
Fuel costs zero or negligible (there's a Supercharger near home and reachable at lunch times from the office)
Lease cost about £800 per month, or £9600 a year
That means a new Tesla costs me about £300 a month net, which I think is reasonable for a luxury performance saloon. When I have to replace the Jag, I'm looking at spending £15-25K on something used, which equates to about £700 a month if I use savings and "pay it back" to myself - plus the petrol costs! I'm assuming depreciation to zero of course - actually the Tesla would be worth 50% of new price (Tesla guarantee) while a used car would lose more with 90K extra miles on it.
Man maths? Maybe, but it seems to work. Add on some non-commuting mileage and it's even better.
....then there is the performance. And the fact it's brand new car.
Ares said:
....but currently opening more at a rate of 1 per week. For an embryonic infrastructure, it's light years ahead of historic infrastructure rollouts.
Cost *may* be rolled into purchase price, although the commercial benefits of host sites suggests that they will be footing at least part of the cost. Regardless, the purchase price of these things is no higher than comparable cars, which makes them even greater economic sense.
Seems as if I am around 70km away from the most northerly charging point in the world... what a claim to fame! Cost *may* be rolled into purchase price, although the commercial benefits of host sites suggests that they will be footing at least part of the cost. Regardless, the purchase price of these things is no higher than comparable cars, which makes them even greater economic sense.
J4CKO said:
http://www.teslamotors.com/en_GB/models
I wonder how quick they can make one if they have managed 2.8 to sixty, does the electric AWD format offer advantages in standing start acceleration that still has potential to offer even faster options, the 2.8 to sixty doesn't seem to involve any wheelspin like with IC engined cars.
All a bit pointless but amazing fun.
Getting quick times with IC cars doesn't involve wheelspin either.I wonder how quick they can make one if they have managed 2.8 to sixty, does the electric AWD format offer advantages in standing start acceleration that still has potential to offer even faster options, the 2.8 to sixty doesn't seem to involve any wheelspin like with IC engined cars.
All a bit pointless but amazing fun.
It's just physics. An Audi R8 is about as quick.
Of course there are some advantages with electric motors, they are easier to regulate the torque, but the power is still going to the ground via tyres and there is a limit to that grip.
Ares said:
mr_spock said:
I've had a test drive in a couple of Teslas, and a mate of mine in California has one. He switched from years of performance BMWs and seems to love it. I'm looking at a possible new job with a long commute, and the maths works out something like:
150 miles round trip per day, 5 days a week, 47 weeks per year, mostly on fast A roads or motorway.
Current car (2003 XJ6) does about 30MPG on a run, so lets take this as a target for a nice riding car with adequate performance. I'll ignore servicing as the costs look similar to the Tesla.
Petrol:
150 miles @ 30mpg = 5 gallons per day = 22l
22 litres @ £1.15 = £25.30 per day
This is £5945 a year
Tesla:
Fuel costs zero or negligible (there's a Supercharger near home and reachable at lunch times from the office)
Lease cost about £800 per month, or £9600 a year
That means a new Tesla costs me about £300 a month net, which I think is reasonable for a luxury performance saloon. When I have to replace the Jag, I'm looking at spending £15-25K on something used, which equates to about £700 a month if I use savings and "pay it back" to myself - plus the petrol costs! I'm assuming depreciation to zero of course - actually the Tesla would be worth 50% of new price (Tesla guarantee) while a used car would lose more with 90K extra miles on it.
Man maths? Maybe, but it seems to work. Add on some non-commuting mileage and it's even better.
Add in the tax break (massive if a company purchase) and the brand new exec car with 8yr unlimited warranty Vs £15/25k snotter (and the costs it will come with), costs stack up even more in the Tesla's favour.150 miles round trip per day, 5 days a week, 47 weeks per year, mostly on fast A roads or motorway.
Current car (2003 XJ6) does about 30MPG on a run, so lets take this as a target for a nice riding car with adequate performance. I'll ignore servicing as the costs look similar to the Tesla.
Petrol:
150 miles @ 30mpg = 5 gallons per day = 22l
22 litres @ £1.15 = £25.30 per day
This is £5945 a year
Tesla:
Fuel costs zero or negligible (there's a Supercharger near home and reachable at lunch times from the office)
Lease cost about £800 per month, or £9600 a year
That means a new Tesla costs me about £300 a month net, which I think is reasonable for a luxury performance saloon. When I have to replace the Jag, I'm looking at spending £15-25K on something used, which equates to about £700 a month if I use savings and "pay it back" to myself - plus the petrol costs! I'm assuming depreciation to zero of course - actually the Tesla would be worth 50% of new price (Tesla guarantee) while a used car would lose more with 90K extra miles on it.
Man maths? Maybe, but it seems to work. Add on some non-commuting mileage and it's even better.
....then there is the performance. And the fact it's brand new car.
Even looking at doing it by motorbike, my BMW is really a bit old for that daily mileage, but replacing it would be 10K, plus filling it up every couple of days and 45-50MPG. The Tesla STILL looks like good value.
Interestingly, I've often thought I'd be able to use a Tesla for shorter journeys and maybe up to my folk's in Scotland with planning, but retain an ICE car for trips to France either skiing or visiting my folk's place out there.
However, from where I live in Cambs, I'm easily within range of Supercharger stations for comfortable journey legs to both the Alps and my folk's place in the Charente, but it's the drive to Scotland that's touch-and-go and requires detours to access superchargers.
Yes, I know a normal charger will work too, but it's just surprised me, pleasantly so, that the longer trips I imagined would be tricky or worrisome are actually the easiest to plan.
However, from where I live in Cambs, I'm easily within range of Supercharger stations for comfortable journey legs to both the Alps and my folk's place in the Charente, but it's the drive to Scotland that's touch-and-go and requires detours to access superchargers.
Yes, I know a normal charger will work too, but it's just surprised me, pleasantly so, that the longer trips I imagined would be tricky or worrisome are actually the easiest to plan.
Kawasicki said:
J4CKO said:
http://www.teslamotors.com/en_GB/models
I wonder how quick they can make one if they have managed 2.8 to sixty, does the electric AWD format offer advantages in standing start acceleration that still has potential to offer even faster options, the 2.8 to sixty doesn't seem to involve any wheelspin like with IC engined cars.
All a bit pointless but amazing fun.
Getting quick times with IC cars doesn't involve wheelspin either.I wonder how quick they can make one if they have managed 2.8 to sixty, does the electric AWD format offer advantages in standing start acceleration that still has potential to offer even faster options, the 2.8 to sixty doesn't seem to involve any wheelspin like with IC engined cars.
All a bit pointless but amazing fun.
It's just physics. An Audi R8 is about as quick.
Of course there are some advantages with electric motors, they are easier to regulate the torque, but the power is still going to the ground via tyres and there is a limit to that grip.
An R8 V10 is near enough as quick, but the Tesla is a massive barge versus a purpose build mid engined supercar.
I was pondering it and was thinking that to launch an IC car you have to get all that drivetrain up to speed ready to deleiver power to the wheels and that takes some doing, a lot of reciprocating mass, obviously the electric motor has some but there are two smaller ones and it seems to be a more controllable and precdictable method.
I guess the lack of gearchanges helps a little as well.
kambites said:
I suspect the traction control system can be considerably more accurate at controlling wheel slip, especially individual wheel slip, in something like a Tesla than in an ICE powered car.
Thats what I thought, would be interesting to hear from Max Torque on this one,Found some info here,
http://my.teslamotors.com/fr_FR/forum/forums/tract...
Typical electric traction systems in passenger cars modulate the motors phase current, and hence it's torque output, at fundamental frequencies of between 5 and 20 KHz. Typically, torque responses in the order of 50KN/s are available, but will generally be limited to avoid drivetrain oscillation. This really is the limiting factor, but an EV drivetrain can be significantly stiffer coupled to the body shell because the primary out-of-balance forces are so much lower for a pure rotational machine(ie no soft/soggy mounts to absorb the rough idle!).
The issue with "getting off the line fast" is the shape of the tyre curve:
You have to get to the critical slip point in order to maximise tractive effort, but as the shape of the curve is inflective, if you go over that point, it's very difficult to get back to the left hand side again! Here, the low rotating inertia and high speed torque control make life a lot easier (in effect, you can "ace" the start more easily. Then there is the issue of not having a clutch to deal with. For an ICE car, a lot of the inital "surge" off the line comes from the energy stored in the engines rotating inertia, that is dumped through the clutch to the road wheels at launch, and helps to fill-in the gap to when the engine can get to WOT and produce maximum torque. But, managing the clutch, and balancing those two inertias is tricky. Slightly too much slip and you're done for!
Then finally, for a 4wd car,having two entirely separate electric axles give one the chance to phase drive torque to the axle with the most grip. ie, torque can be split in the same ratio as vehicle mass when stationary, to get the best initial launch, and then as the car accelerates and the mass shifts rearwards, the torque can accurately follow that movement to maintain peak tyre friction.
The issue with "getting off the line fast" is the shape of the tyre curve:
You have to get to the critical slip point in order to maximise tractive effort, but as the shape of the curve is inflective, if you go over that point, it's very difficult to get back to the left hand side again! Here, the low rotating inertia and high speed torque control make life a lot easier (in effect, you can "ace" the start more easily. Then there is the issue of not having a clutch to deal with. For an ICE car, a lot of the inital "surge" off the line comes from the energy stored in the engines rotating inertia, that is dumped through the clutch to the road wheels at launch, and helps to fill-in the gap to when the engine can get to WOT and produce maximum torque. But, managing the clutch, and balancing those two inertias is tricky. Slightly too much slip and you're done for!
Then finally, for a 4wd car,having two entirely separate electric axles give one the chance to phase drive torque to the axle with the most grip. ie, torque can be split in the same ratio as vehicle mass when stationary, to get the best initial launch, and then as the car accelerates and the mass shifts rearwards, the torque can accurately follow that movement to maintain peak tyre friction.
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