Manufacturer cannot find defect - experiences?
Discussion
Ladies and Gents,
I'm hoping that you have some first hand experience of something similar to the below.
The long and short of it is that a major French car manufacturer known for their hot/record breaking hatches over the last 10/15 years (I'm sure you can figure it out), has not been able to repair a major defect of my 2013 'car' with 25,000kms on the clock, despite this issue being ongoing since May 2015 with 7 attempted repairs, the last two resulting in the car being in the garage for a total of 9+(ongoing) weeks. The car is now un driveable.
Note: I do live in Australia, but I'm looking for (and would appreciate to hear) personal experiences of dealing with car manufacturers head office, and/or knowledgeable advice on how to handle and go forward with this.
It's a long read (Apologies), but I would appreciate any first hand experience and what the outcome was from that experience as there's just not the 'forums' in Auz to get such advice.
Thanks for any help and advice that you may be able to offer!
1. September 2014 - Purchased Ex Demo car (registered June 2013) with 11,000kms for $25,000.
2. On or around 18 May 2015 the car developed several issues which include;
a) Taking a long time to start the car, often requiring several attempts;
b) Cutting out when off throttle such as changing gear, slowing for red light;
c) Sudden power lose when cruising or accelerating; and
d) Sudden and violent power surges.
3. 5 June 2015 Repair (1): Car is taken in for repair to main dealership.
No fault found, car returned but the issues were still present.
4. 8 June 2015: Video evidence (taken that day) of the issues (sudden power loss / power surge and stalling) sent to main dealership, who advised their technical specialists in France would review and propose a solution.
5. 12 June 2015: Further email sent to the main dealer where I advised the issues remained, and I also stated that the issues appeared to be getting progressively worse.
6. 25 June 2015 Repair (2): Car taken in for diagnosis and repair, however no fault could be found. Car returned to me on the same day with the issues still present.
7. 1 July 2015 Repair (3): After posting my issue on the forum, many people suggested changing a CAM sensor which was replaced on 1 July 2015. Car returned with the stalling issue appearing to be resolved – surging remained.
8. 8 July 2015 Repair (4): Further part of the sensor replaced. The surging of the car remained.
9. 8 July 2015 – 18 August 2015: Despite the car not running 100%, I was moving inter-state and completing professional exams so the car was not a priority. I did not seek repair in this period.
10. 18 August 2015: Driving from Perth – Melbourne and the ‘stalling’ issue becomes consistent, as well as the power surging / power loss becoming increasingly violent and consistent. The car lost approx. 50% power to the extent I could not overtake, would stall whenever off throttle and used approx. 600-800ml of oil in 800kms which was evident by oil deposit on the exhaust tip.
11. 18 August 2015: I called the local main dealership (Adelaide) explaining the situation, and asked if the car could be looked at later that day – they could not assist.
12. 18 August 2015: Car breaks down on several occasions (out of range of mobile phone signal), stalled off throttle, violently surged and lost power, and also developed a backfire. Car collected by roadside assistance (who provided a report detailing the back-fire issues etc.) and the car was taken to a local dealership.
13. 18 August 2015: Hire car required – Cost incurred $350.
14. 21 August 2015: I offered to provide video evidence of the surging and back-firing, this was declined.
15. Early Sep: Hire car required whilst car was in for repair – Cost incurred $700
16. 18 August 2015 – 17 September 2015 (Repair 5): The car was in for repair for four weeks, no fault could be found. I was assured the car ran 100% and the car was delivered to my address in Melbourne.
17. 18 September 2015: Took the car for a drive – ALL issues remained present. My wife and I were left stranded on the freeway for several minutes attempting to start the car and we could not overtake due to a loss of power.
18. 18 September 2015: Whilst parking in garage, the engine ‘surged’ causing me to jolt into a wall, with the car sustaining minor damage to the rear bumper.
19. 21 September 2015: Extensive (5 page) letter sent to the manufacturers head office, outlining all the issues. Within that letter, I requested a refund or replacement. (Age of vehicle - approx. 29 month, Mileage - 26,000kms)
20. 22 September 2015: The manufacturer (via phone) confirmed they will not offer a refund or replace, and requested that I take the vehicle to their highest trained tech in Australia for further investigation.
21. 25 September 2015 (Repair 6): Car dropped off to ‘technical specialist’, with a courtesy car being provided.
22. 9 October 2015: I was advised the car had been repaired. I drove approx. 20metres from the garage, when the car power surged and again cut-out off throttle. This was observed by the technician.
23. 9 October 2015 (Repair 7): The car was taken back in for repair and courtesy car provided.
24. 9 October 2015: I made a formal complaint with Consumer Affairs who advised that I take the matter to small claims court.
25. 14 October 2015: Email sent to the manufacturer advising of my rights as advised by Consumer Affairs, and I further requested a refund or replacement otherwise I would commence with legal proceedings in the small claims court.
26. 19 October 2015: First item of correspondence issued by the manufacturer, stating they will not offer a refund or repair, and will continue to investigate / replace parts (this time being a throttle body).
27. 20 October 2015: I replied stating that I will await a final repair attempt on the condition the damage sustained through the power surge is rectified.
28. 20 October 2015: The manufacturer ‘confirms receipt’ of my request.
Am I totally 'out of touch' to expect that the car be replaced or receive a refund?
THANKS FOR READING.
I'm hoping that you have some first hand experience of something similar to the below.
The long and short of it is that a major French car manufacturer known for their hot/record breaking hatches over the last 10/15 years (I'm sure you can figure it out), has not been able to repair a major defect of my 2013 'car' with 25,000kms on the clock, despite this issue being ongoing since May 2015 with 7 attempted repairs, the last two resulting in the car being in the garage for a total of 9+(ongoing) weeks. The car is now un driveable.
Note: I do live in Australia, but I'm looking for (and would appreciate to hear) personal experiences of dealing with car manufacturers head office, and/or knowledgeable advice on how to handle and go forward with this.
It's a long read (Apologies), but I would appreciate any first hand experience and what the outcome was from that experience as there's just not the 'forums' in Auz to get such advice.
Thanks for any help and advice that you may be able to offer!
1. September 2014 - Purchased Ex Demo car (registered June 2013) with 11,000kms for $25,000.
2. On or around 18 May 2015 the car developed several issues which include;
a) Taking a long time to start the car, often requiring several attempts;
b) Cutting out when off throttle such as changing gear, slowing for red light;
c) Sudden power lose when cruising or accelerating; and
d) Sudden and violent power surges.
3. 5 June 2015 Repair (1): Car is taken in for repair to main dealership.
No fault found, car returned but the issues were still present.
4. 8 June 2015: Video evidence (taken that day) of the issues (sudden power loss / power surge and stalling) sent to main dealership, who advised their technical specialists in France would review and propose a solution.
5. 12 June 2015: Further email sent to the main dealer where I advised the issues remained, and I also stated that the issues appeared to be getting progressively worse.
6. 25 June 2015 Repair (2): Car taken in for diagnosis and repair, however no fault could be found. Car returned to me on the same day with the issues still present.
7. 1 July 2015 Repair (3): After posting my issue on the forum, many people suggested changing a CAM sensor which was replaced on 1 July 2015. Car returned with the stalling issue appearing to be resolved – surging remained.
8. 8 July 2015 Repair (4): Further part of the sensor replaced. The surging of the car remained.
9. 8 July 2015 – 18 August 2015: Despite the car not running 100%, I was moving inter-state and completing professional exams so the car was not a priority. I did not seek repair in this period.
10. 18 August 2015: Driving from Perth – Melbourne and the ‘stalling’ issue becomes consistent, as well as the power surging / power loss becoming increasingly violent and consistent. The car lost approx. 50% power to the extent I could not overtake, would stall whenever off throttle and used approx. 600-800ml of oil in 800kms which was evident by oil deposit on the exhaust tip.
11. 18 August 2015: I called the local main dealership (Adelaide) explaining the situation, and asked if the car could be looked at later that day – they could not assist.
12. 18 August 2015: Car breaks down on several occasions (out of range of mobile phone signal), stalled off throttle, violently surged and lost power, and also developed a backfire. Car collected by roadside assistance (who provided a report detailing the back-fire issues etc.) and the car was taken to a local dealership.
13. 18 August 2015: Hire car required – Cost incurred $350.
14. 21 August 2015: I offered to provide video evidence of the surging and back-firing, this was declined.
15. Early Sep: Hire car required whilst car was in for repair – Cost incurred $700
16. 18 August 2015 – 17 September 2015 (Repair 5): The car was in for repair for four weeks, no fault could be found. I was assured the car ran 100% and the car was delivered to my address in Melbourne.
17. 18 September 2015: Took the car for a drive – ALL issues remained present. My wife and I were left stranded on the freeway for several minutes attempting to start the car and we could not overtake due to a loss of power.
18. 18 September 2015: Whilst parking in garage, the engine ‘surged’ causing me to jolt into a wall, with the car sustaining minor damage to the rear bumper.
19. 21 September 2015: Extensive (5 page) letter sent to the manufacturers head office, outlining all the issues. Within that letter, I requested a refund or replacement. (Age of vehicle - approx. 29 month, Mileage - 26,000kms)
20. 22 September 2015: The manufacturer (via phone) confirmed they will not offer a refund or replace, and requested that I take the vehicle to their highest trained tech in Australia for further investigation.
21. 25 September 2015 (Repair 6): Car dropped off to ‘technical specialist’, with a courtesy car being provided.
22. 9 October 2015: I was advised the car had been repaired. I drove approx. 20metres from the garage, when the car power surged and again cut-out off throttle. This was observed by the technician.
23. 9 October 2015 (Repair 7): The car was taken back in for repair and courtesy car provided.
24. 9 October 2015: I made a formal complaint with Consumer Affairs who advised that I take the matter to small claims court.
25. 14 October 2015: Email sent to the manufacturer advising of my rights as advised by Consumer Affairs, and I further requested a refund or replacement otherwise I would commence with legal proceedings in the small claims court.
26. 19 October 2015: First item of correspondence issued by the manufacturer, stating they will not offer a refund or repair, and will continue to investigate / replace parts (this time being a throttle body).
27. 20 October 2015: I replied stating that I will await a final repair attempt on the condition the damage sustained through the power surge is rectified.
28. 20 October 2015: The manufacturer ‘confirms receipt’ of my request.
Am I totally 'out of touch' to expect that the car be replaced or receive a refund?
THANKS FOR READING.
Edited by CountingBricks on Tuesday 20th October 08:12
Edited by CountingBricks on Tuesday 20th October 08:16
CountingBricks said:
Am I totally 'out of touch' to expect that the car be replaced or receive a refund?
Probably yes. If you think you're in the right and can prove it, then take them to court. If they think they're wrong they'll fold, if they don't they won't and they will contest your claim.Edited by CountingBricks on Tuesday 20th October 08:12
Personally I think you're on a hiding to nothing - sell the car & move on. It was almost a year old when you bought it and nearly 3 years old with 25k on...
northwest monkey said:
Probably yes. If you think you're in the right and can prove it, then take them to court. If they think they're wrong they'll fold, if they don't they won't and they will contest your claim.
Personally I think you're on a hiding to nothing - sell the car & move on. It was almost a year old when you bought it and nearly 3 years old with 25k on...
It's just over two years old plus and still within manufacturers warranty so I would take them to court based on the fact it's not fit for purpose and you've taken every reasonable (and beyond) step to resolve the issue with the company.Personally I think you're on a hiding to nothing - sell the car & move on. It was almost a year old when you bought it and nearly 3 years old with 25k on...
Thanks for the response.
I look forward to all points of view, but in my eyes, a car is a purchase just as a high end TV etc.
If a TV had a year's manufacturers warranty and developed issues 7months down the road and after several attempts of repair could not be rectified, I'm sure you'd expect a replacement.
Cars are ofcourse considerably more complex so require a higher degree of understanding and patience, but at what point do you exceed that threshold of 'reasonable'.
The power seems to rest with manufacturers or the small time consumer with enough energy to take them on!
And to clarify, it has approx 15,000 miles on the clock.
I look forward to all points of view, but in my eyes, a car is a purchase just as a high end TV etc.
If a TV had a year's manufacturers warranty and developed issues 7months down the road and after several attempts of repair could not be rectified, I'm sure you'd expect a replacement.
Cars are ofcourse considerably more complex so require a higher degree of understanding and patience, but at what point do you exceed that threshold of 'reasonable'.
The power seems to rest with manufacturers or the small time consumer with enough energy to take them on!
And to clarify, it has approx 15,000 miles on the clock.
CountingBricks said:
Note: I do live in Australia
I doubt many on here have the foggiest idea of consumer protection laws in Oz.Nor do we have any idea of the terms and conditions of whatever warranty/guarantees you were given on the purchase of this one year old second hand car so don't know whether the manufacturer/importer has any liability at all.
CountingBricks said:
Note: I do live in Australia, but I'm looking for (and would appreciate to hear) personal experiences of dealing with car manufacturers head office
So you won't be dealing with the UK importer, or even with Paris, but with the Aussie importer.If you've only got one dealer in Adelaide, then I suspect it may be simply incompetence on their part - but, of course, your next nearest dealer is a long trawl away. Do you have some kind of equivalent to the EU block exemption laws, allowing you to take it to a non-franchise dealer and retain any guarantee? Sure, that'll mean you're paying, but...
CountingBricks said:
Am I totally 'out of touch' to expect that the car be replaced or receive a refund?
I have absolutely no idea how Australian law deals with situations like this. This really is a question you need to ask on an Australian forum - it's not car-specific, and it's not even particularly brand-specific. Where it is brand-specific, it's the local importer whose policies and procedures are relevant.Edited by TooMany2cvs on Tuesday 20th October 08:42
Good luck getting it sorted, sounds like an electrical problem to me.
I'd be asking an independent to diagnose, I suspect it will be one of the following
Coil packs, leads and plugs
Throttle position sensor (could be on the pedal and/or throttle body)
Earthing or shielding problem on cam and/or crank position sensor
Injector wiring harness
I'd be asking an independent to diagnose, I suspect it will be one of the following
Coil packs, leads and plugs
Throttle position sensor (could be on the pedal and/or throttle body)
Earthing or shielding problem on cam and/or crank position sensor
Injector wiring harness
HughG said:
Throttle position sensor (could be on the pedal and/or throttle body)
This , I think, on the pedal itself as you've had the throttle bodies looked at already. I had this on a similar car and the main dealer couldn't diagnose it. I swapped parts with a mate one at a time till we got it and it was a 5 minute fix eventually. I went back to the main dealer and told them and they were grateful as they had had other cars presenting with the same problem that they hadn't been able to diagnose.craigsup said:
northwest monkey said:
Probably yes. If you think you're in the right and can prove it, then take them to court. If they think they're wrong they'll fold, if they don't they won't and they will contest your claim.
Personally I think you're on a hiding to nothing - sell the car & move on. It was almost a year old when you bought it and nearly 3 years old with 25k on...
It's just over two years old plus and still within manufacturers warranty so I would take them to court based on the fact it's not fit for purpose and you've taken every reasonable (and beyond) step to resolve the issue with the company.Personally I think you're on a hiding to nothing - sell the car & move on. It was almost a year old when you bought it and nearly 3 years old with 25k on...
Steps:
I) Get them to agree it shouldn't be like that
... Should it do this?
... Do you agree there is a problem?
... Do you think I'm being reasonable in expecting it to work ok?
Get positive answers to those questions then you're in a strong position
II) Agree an escalating resolution plan
a) Local technician
b) Area tech
c) Country tech
d) Factory/product team tech
e) Main board item (yes == I've done that!)
I) Get them to agree it shouldn't be like that
... Should it do this?
... Do you agree there is a problem?
... Do you think I'm being reasonable in expecting it to work ok?
Get positive answers to those questions then you're in a strong position
II) Agree an escalating resolution plan
a) Local technician
b) Area tech
c) Country tech
d) Factory/product team tech
e) Main board item (yes == I've done that!)
Portsmouth Honda returned my Honda Prelude after a week of having it the second time saying "they exhausted their testing methods and the fault must be the ECU" which cost the price of the car at the time. They had already changed a £400 speed generator it did not need and billed my RAC warranty!
I took it to a Bosch garage up the road who diagnosed a lose wire. fixed it, and charged me £160.
I took it to a Bosch garage up the road who diagnosed a lose wire. fixed it, and charged me £160.
Thanks for the replies!
Bit of a mixed back in terms of responses. I wasn't after a 'legal' position given the obvious likely difference in law between the UK and Australia - more concerned about account where a manufacturer has given a solution to such a problem.
There doesn't seem to be many accounts of a consumer having returned a car countless times - I'm on my 7th in 5 months for the same issue.
I guess that's because a solution is normally found, however in my case the manufacturers solution is simply to keep returning for investigation... Just seems odd that this is just the way it is. Like I've said, this wouldn't be the case with any other product - which is what (in my eyes) a car essentially is, just like a TV.
Anyhow thanks again, and I'll post up the outcome once I've got some form of solution (repair / court).
Bit of a mixed back in terms of responses. I wasn't after a 'legal' position given the obvious likely difference in law between the UK and Australia - more concerned about account where a manufacturer has given a solution to such a problem.
There doesn't seem to be many accounts of a consumer having returned a car countless times - I'm on my 7th in 5 months for the same issue.
I guess that's because a solution is normally found, however in my case the manufacturers solution is simply to keep returning for investigation... Just seems odd that this is just the way it is. Like I've said, this wouldn't be the case with any other product - which is what (in my eyes) a car essentially is, just like a TV.
Anyhow thanks again, and I'll post up the outcome once I've got some form of solution (repair / court).
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