RE: Mercedes-AMG C63 vs. BMW M4
Discussion
Wills2 said:
Most of the negative comments you'll find in GG when a new performance car is launched are generally from posters who don't buy new cars at all or have zero interest in the type of car presented, but strangely they can't wait to slag off a car they have no interest in and haven't driven.
Oddly arrogant comment. Can't see any reason why these people's opinions are less valid than anyone else's. How many on here regularly buy a new car? Is there some unwritten rule you have to have driven a car before passing opinion on it? CorvetteConvert said:
Nothing?
You mean not one car from:-
Ford Focus RS. BMW M2. BMW M4. Renault Megane RS275. Mercedes A45AMG. Audi RS3. Or maybe a current Corvette or Camaro. Or a Porsche 991 turbo or GT3RS.
Nothing interests you?
Sounds like you need a Caterham then!
Anything FWD or otherwise transverse-engined or Haldex is out straight off. Anything turbocharged is out. Anything with electric steering is out. Anything that pipes fake noise is out. Anything I can see sod all out of is out. Inline four cylinder engines are out. So, that might leave the Corvette (except it's got electric steering!) - but I've had two V8s and that's enough, I think (barring a daft Bentley or AMG wagon). A sports car, in my book, needs a six- or twelve-cylinder N/A engine. The Corvette is also ludicrous and vulgar. I'd love a DB9, but recent tweaks have spoiled the looks, so (money concerns aside) I'd still buy an old one. A Bentley Mulsanne might interest me (it even has proper boot hinges!) but the Arnage is much nicer (stupid cheapskate boot plungers aside, I'd swap those for some proper hinges). Track-day specials might have interested me 25 years ago, but not now.You mean not one car from:-
Ford Focus RS. BMW M2. BMW M4. Renault Megane RS275. Mercedes A45AMG. Audi RS3. Or maybe a current Corvette or Camaro. Or a Porsche 991 turbo or GT3RS.
Nothing interests you?
Sounds like you need a Caterham then!
RoverP6B said:
CorvetteConvert said:
Nothing?
You mean not one car from:-
Ford Focus RS. BMW M2. BMW M4. Renault Megane RS275. Mercedes A45AMG. Audi RS3. Or maybe a current Corvette or Camaro. Or a Porsche 991 turbo or GT3RS.
Nothing interests you?
Sounds like you need a Caterham then!
Anything FWD or otherwise transverse-engined or Haldex is out straight off. Anything turbocharged is out. Anything with electric steering is out. Anything that pipes fake noise is out. Anything I can see sod all out of is out. Inline four cylinder engines are out. So, that might leave the Corvette (except it's got electric steering!) - but I've had two V8s and that's enough, I think (barring a daft Bentley or AMG wagon). A sports car, in my book, needs a six- or twelve-cylinder N/A engine. The Corvette is also ludicrous and vulgar. I'd love a DB9, but recent tweaks have spoiled the looks, so (money concerns aside) I'd still buy an old one. A Bentley Mulsanne might interest me (it even has proper boot hinges!) but the Arnage is much nicer (stupid cheapskate boot plungers aside, I'd swap those for some proper hinges). Track-day specials might have interested me 25 years ago, but not now.You mean not one car from:-
Ford Focus RS. BMW M2. BMW M4. Renault Megane RS275. Mercedes A45AMG. Audi RS3. Or maybe a current Corvette or Camaro. Or a Porsche 991 turbo or GT3RS.
Nothing interests you?
Sounds like you need a Caterham then!
It certainly looks a million times more attractive than the lardarse tank they call an Arnage, fgs!
Oh well, each to their own.
But the list of things above that you wouldn't have, well, 'doomed' is what you would appear to be!
The Arnage is a big heavy barge, granted, but it's handsome. There has never, in my opinion, been a Corvette that wasn't utterly hideous, gaudy and tasteless. I don't like V8s in sports cars, I particularly don't like pushrods in modern cars, 500bhp in something that light/small is simply too much... GM needs to sack their designers, get Pininfarina to style everything, and come up with a smaller, lighter, six-cylinder sports car.
RoverP6B said:
The Arnage is a big heavy barge, granted, but it's handsome. There has never, in my opinion, been a Corvette that wasn't utterly hideous, gaudy and tasteless. I don't like V8s in sports cars, I particularly don't like pushrods in modern cars, 500bhp in something that light/small is simply too much... GM needs to sack their designers, get Pininfarina to style everything, and come up with a smaller, lighter, six-cylinder sports car.
Never in a million years. The Arnage looks like the tank who ate all the pies. The Corvette is sleek and attractive, very menacing from some angles also. The 2008 Z06 is anyway.The LS2/LS3 motor is the perfect engine for just about every single automotive use imaginable!
We've had smaller, lighter American sports cars many times, the Fiero for one. They don't cut it and never have done.
Why the hang-up with pushrods? The basic American V8 is the best overall engine of ALL time, for the reason that it is not just lightweight but incredibly capable. Why do you think that Bentley use the same design for their posh models and Ultima, who could use anything, choose a Yank V8?
I raced Sprint Cars for 2 years in America (for those unaware, we are talking 600 bhp V8s and 130 mph sideways in the turns on a half-mile dirt oval) and no other engine ever came close to the V8s. Exactly like Formula 1 Stock Car racing out there and here. V12s were tried and abandoned.
The same as Drag racing here and worldwide. V8 pushrod engines rule. V6s and V12s were tried and shelved.
6 THOUSAND bhp from an 8 litre V8 with pushrods is might impressive, as is the 0-110 mph in ONE second that they are capable of, en route to 0-300 in under 5 seconds.
I know people with boats in California with 2 Chevvy V8 engines. There isn't another engine on the planet to compete for price/power capability/easy servicing.
Like someone else suggested on another thread, a lightly tuned 6.2 litre LS3 with 500 bhp would make an awesome Westfield or similar.
Edited by CorvetteConvert on Friday 30th October 10:40
Wills2 said:
Guvernator said:
I've bought new performance cars previously, I've bought German cars before too, in fact my car history is almost exclusively German with a brief foray into Japanese performance so both of these should be right up my street. I however have little interest in the current batch of new German performance cars so what does that make me?
Someone that likes to spent their time posting about things they have no interest in? RoverP6B said:
The original had a small I6 and that's the way it should be. A big sod-off pushrod V8 in a lightweight sports car is absurd.
But those LS3 motors aren't really 'big sod-off' engines. They are pussy cats as standard, easy to use, lovely power band and they are lightweight too. What's a lot sillier is the heavy 3.5 Rover V8 they shoehorned into everything from kit cars to TVRs with their appalling 165 bhp (unless you made them a lot bigger and highly tuned like the Griffith).
The current Corvette is a very nice 460 bhp/460lb ft car with around 1450 kgs. 30 mpg on a run and a very useable engine, fast or slow. In America i would happily have one as my only car.
Guvernator said:
Wills2 said:
Guvernator said:
I've bought new performance cars previously, I've bought German cars before too, in fact my car history is almost exclusively German with a brief foray into Japanese performance so both of these should be right up my street. I however have little interest in the current batch of new German performance cars so what does that make me?
Someone that likes to spent their time posting about things they have no interest in? Small capacity V8 which revs for England, but ever so user-friendly as a daily, ie.
Edited by CorvetteConvert on Friday 30th October 10:53
ORD said:
Not sure it's fair to say anything other than the big US V8s are remarkable engines. Not mechanically terribly interesting or exotic (and they sound dull), but they are very impressive power plants.
I am not sure I would look elsewhere if I wanted a crate engine for a build.
Versatile is the word i think, Ord.I am not sure I would look elsewhere if I wanted a crate engine for a build.
Boats, drag racing, sprint car racing, stock car racing, tarmac circuit racing, kit cars, muscle cars, sports cars, 4x4s, station wagons, campers, trucks, lorries, everything basically is done well with a Yank V8.
Up to 6,000 bhp too. Yet i can work on even the latest ones to quite an extent and the earlier ones i owned with carbs i would regularly rebuild the top end in a weekend.
I recall doing the tappets on a 1982 Corvette i owned in an hour flat. Put new valves and springs into it in 2 hours.
NOTHING dull about the sound of a Yank V8 with a nice exhaust either! One of the very best motoring sounds around.
I used to think (for decades) that the very best sound of all was an free-flowing V12 like my friend's Enzo, but the incredible din all the time, at incredibly high pitch, REALLY gets on your t*ts after a while and i was surprised that i came to think that way as i LOVE Italian V12s.
I used to think (for decades) that the very best sound of all was an free-flowing V12 like my friend's Enzo, but the incredible din all the time, at incredibly high pitch, REALLY gets on your t*ts after a while and i was surprised that i came to think that way as i LOVE Italian V12s.
Bradley1500 said:
theboss said:
It's synthesised sound pumped through the speakers. It's not audible to anyone outside the car and it doesn't attempt to alter the sound of the engine in any way. I don't like the principle one bit either - but as it stands I find it imperceptible in my M5. If I turn a window down or open the sunroof I hear the car as it is, without any trickery.
Can this be switched off? Or is it constantly pumping engine noise into the cabin.I haven't experienced it, but imagine that would annoy me.
As stated I find it imperceptible - I can only speak for the M5 so the M3/M4 may be different - but if it were immediately discernible then I would probably find it annoying too. What matters to me is that the car sounds decent without it. BMW's intention (as far as I understand it) was to effectively try and improve audible feedback to the driver because of the relatively insulated nature of the cabin. It's not an inherently bad sounding car - its just relatively muted with the standard exhaust.
I recall being a little bit sick when I originally heard of the fake sound in the M5 but since owning one I can't say I've thought about it in the slightest - maybe I'm just easily tricked. On the other hand the natural 'sound actuator' in the Golf R, which isn't synthesised as far as I'm aware, sounds far faker and more intrusive than the M5.
Edited by theboss on Friday 30th October 11:10
CorvetteConvert said:
Guvernator said:
Wills2 said:
Guvernator said:
I've bought new performance cars previously, I've bought German cars before too, in fact my car history is almost exclusively German with a brief foray into Japanese performance so both of these should be right up my street. I however have little interest in the current batch of new German performance cars so what does that make me?
Someone that likes to spent their time posting about things they have no interest in? Small capacity V8 which revs for England, but ever so user-friendly as a daily, ie.
The 335i was great at doing the daily stuff but not that great at the exciting stuff and while I did enjoy it, I only kept it for 18 months as I got bored of it, should have just manned up and bought the M3 as it was a totally different animal, unlike the current crop which feel too much like my previous 335i IMO. I no longer use my car for work either so would have made even more sense now.
In fact I've thought about revisiting the M3 E9x idea from time to time but I've sort of done the 3 series BMW to death now so feel like I need to look elsewhere.
CorvetteConvert said:
I think the point he may possibly be making is that people with no experience of a given car sector, maybe the sports car market, slag the new model of a car off with no real understanding of it, or likelihood of ever even sitting in one.
Yes, sure, but he's referring to General Gassing. The forum name describes the type of content. There are car specific forums for particular marques, which the OP might find more to his taste. Don't get me wrong, the new M3\M4 and M5\M6 are deeply impressive cars in many ways and I can certainly see why they might appeal to a lot of people. Very fast, refined, full of toys, in fact despite all I've said I'd still consider an M3 or M5 as a practical family run around with a bit of poke.
What I wouldn't do though is pay £55k or £70k for one brand new, they just aren't special enough for that kind of price tag plus I'd still need to buy another car to get my thrills. That's the difference between the new generation M cars and the old, the older cars were fun enough to not require the purchase of a second weekend car, the new ones aren't.
What I wouldn't do though is pay £55k or £70k for one brand new, they just aren't special enough for that kind of price tag plus I'd still need to buy another car to get my thrills. That's the difference between the new generation M cars and the old, the older cars were fun enough to not require the purchase of a second weekend car, the new ones aren't.
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