RE: Feedback is back: Tell Me I'm Wrong

[RobM77]

NDNDNDND said:

I've not yet driven a power rack that I prefer to a good unassisted rack - PAS will never give you as much information or confidence - but they're not coming back. Most people would think driving a car without PAS is insane.

I agree with you, nothing's better than a good unassisted rack, and in the mid/rear engine Elise up to 1000kg steering weight isn't an issue at all (the S2 Exige's steering is considerably lighter than the steering on my E90 320d for example) but it's worth pointing out that PAS can be better than an unassisted rack due to the weird geo that unassisted steering can sometimes need to keep it light. The mk2 Nissan Micra is a good example - I once did a back to back drive of the PAS and non-PAS models and the PAS was far more linear and with better feel; there was no question at all which was better. Even the Elise has this problem, but cleverly it's only apparent when making very tight turns at low speeds.

[ORD]

NDNDNDND said:

I'd like to see the return of unassisted steering - although in reality this is already a template for the 'future of feedback' i.e. only available in a few niche models (Elise, Exige, Evora (?) and 4C) and marketed out of existence in everything else, even the crappiest hatchbacks.

I've not yet driven a power rack that I prefer to a good unassisted rack - PAS will never give you as much information or confidence - but they're not coming back. Most people would think driving a car without PAS is insane.

Sadly, recent changes to MOT regulations mean you can't remove power steering from a car that was never available without it - so you're not allowed to strip the PAS out of either a Mk3 or Mk4 MX5 for instance, which is a pity. Given Mazda have made a great virtue out of the lightweight of the Mk4 MX5, an unassisted rack option would be terrific. It would also go some way to helping resolve the issues with the chassis - which EVO said was made deliberately softer to roll in corners in lieu of actual feedback.

I drove a 987 Cayman on 19 inch tyres for a mile or two with PAS having failed, and I can tell you that fat tyres and a 1400kg kerb weight does not for pleasant unassisted steering make. I am sure that there was feel in there somewhere, but it was rather difficult to detect while applying huge forces to the wheel!

[RobM77]

ORD said:

I drove a 987 Cayman on 19 inch tyres for a mile or two with PAS having failed, and I can tell you that fat tyres and a 1400kg kerb weight does not for pleasant unassisted steering make. I am sure that there was feel in there somewhere, but it was rather difficult to detect while applying huge forces to the wheel!

Don't forget that the suspension and steering geometry (caster, king pin inclination etc) wouldn't have been tuned for use without PAS on the Cayman. With the engine in the middle, the Cayman might just get away without PAS, but it would have to have totally different geometry to enable it.

[T0MMY]

RobM77 said:

Don't forget that the suspension and steering geometry (caster, king pin inclination etc) wouldn't have been tuned for use without PAS on the Cayman. With the engine in the middle, the Cayman might just get away without PAS, but it would have to have totally different geometry to enable it.

Yep, a car with its PAS disabled doesn't give the same experience as a car designed without PAS. Same with servo assisted brakes.

These days, whenever there are complaints about electric power steering the default response is that the manufacturers have no choice as hydraulic PAS is too inefficient. The standpoint seems to be that PAS is just a necessity, and it rarely seems to be argued that having no PAS uses less fuel than either! Problem is with the desire for enormous tyres on even the most mundane of cars, plus the sheer weight of vehicles nowadays, it would be difficult to get light enough steering to make it viable.

[RobM77]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

As I said above, often you'll find that totally unassisted steering requires geo that feels a bit odd. PAS can relax this and allow tuning potential for better feel and linearity. It's misleading to say that "no PAS rack is as good as a good unassisted rack" (as many do), because whilst that's true, the wonderful steering of an Elise is not an option for a 1300kg coupé and it's unfair to compare the two - such a car may get better feel than unassisted steering by having a nicely tuned hydraulic rack, as with the Evora. The Esprit is another good example.

[NDNDNDND]

RobM77 said:

As I said above, often you'll find that totally unassisted steering requires geo that feels a bit odd. PAS can relax this and allow tuning potential for better feel and linearity. It's misleading to say that "no PAS rack is as good as a good unassisted rack" (as many do), because whilst that's true, the wonderful steering of an Elise is not an option for a 1300kg coupé and it's unfair to compare the two - such a car may get better feel than unassisted steering by having a nicely tuned hydraulic rack, as with the Evora. The Esprit is another good example.

It's interesting that you reference the Mk2 Micra - I own one of these (that I keep largely out of bloody-mindedness!) which has an unassisted rack, and it's one of my favourite things about the car. I took it to work on Monday and threaded it down wet country roads. The steering communicated beautifully the threshold of grip at the front tyres, and I could safely and easily surf round many corners on the absolute limit of grip, which was still quite slow, I'll admit! One of the things I miss when I switch back to an assisted car, is the way the steering loads up as you corner. This gives you a huge amount of confidence, the steering telling you there's grip to be had and allowing you to push and dig into the corner. With assistance the steering doesn't really weight up, and you have to wait for that intangible loosening and graining sensation as the limit is reached.

My MX5 runs a depowered power steering rack (i.e. an unassisted, high ratio rack) and the transformation of the car was profound - again that loading up of the steering gives you the confidence to push and dig in, and the weight of the steering making the transition from grip to slip extremely obvious. The steering effort is high with this setup, I'll admit unmarketably high, but the car is so much better for it.

You're right that heavier car are going to become, to an extent, unwieldy with unassisted steering, particularly with modern tastes for quick ratios and lightness, but it is annoying that every tiny city car has to come with numbing PAS too.

[big_rob_sydney]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

I think if a discussion is to be had, it may be worthwhile to actually define the topic, before attempting to answer it. If you start out with a poorly defined question, the likelihood is, you will get a poorly defined answer.

In IT, this is known as "garbage in garbage out."

By all means, proceed through life using poorly defined problems. I just hope the next time you come to an intersection you don't just proceed through it without worrying about the detail, like, oncoming cars...

[ORD]

I find overly assisted and numb steering positively frightening. I dont know how people drive cars like that as quickly as they do. I feel completely lost in most modern cars - no idea what grip I have and where. I respond to that by driving slowly. Others seem to respond by putting the hammer down, though, as the fastest cars I see on most roads are those with zero feedback - the driver has no idea that he is pushing the limits. I have never had any driver's car harass me on twisty roads, only ever things like diesel Insignias and Audis that merrily understeer around every bend and are kept on the road by electronic aids.

[Redline 8000]

Not wrong Dan; excellent piece. Totally agree about the sophisticated – in real terms – appeal of the McLaren approach. It makes their cars so usable and enjoyable in a wide range of conditions. I had a similarly enjoyable wet drive in an MP4-12C and was thankful for its rounded blend of virtues. So, yes, more feel, feedback, and handling that's balanced by a compliant ride, please.

[ORD]

Bob's either joking or very much on the spectrum. No great surprise he works in IT.

[RobM77]

ORD said:

I find overly assisted and numb steering positively frightening. I dont know how people drive cars like that as quickly as they do. I feel completely lost in most modern cars - no idea what grip I have and where. I respond to that by driving slowly. Others seem to respond by putting the hammer down, though, as the fastest cars I see on most roads are those with zero feedback - the driver has no idea that he is pushing the limits. I have never had any driver's car harass me on twisty roads, only ever things like diesel Insignias and Audis that merrily understeer around every bend and are kept on the road by electronic aids.

I know exactly what you mean and it's a good point, but it is possible to learn to drive using other senses. One needs to do this for example to drive on a simulator, and to some extent to drive a racing car in fireproof gloves, which remove a huge amount of feel. I do both quite a bit, so consequently find I can jump into a modern car with lifeless ePAS and drive it flat out, although yes, it's fairly unnerving at first, particularly if you've spent a while driving a proper car with bare hands (e.g. my Lotus on a trackday). I should swiftly add that I'm not claiming to be a 'PHDG' (got to get that disclaimer in!), but it's something that comes with practise.

[WilsonLaidlaw]

I have not driven a 570S but the 650S I did drive had the best power steering of any car I have driven, so the views on the 570 come as no surprise. It was even better than my 997 Turbo, which to date, I thought was the pinnacle of power steering. For unpowered steering, I have yet to drive anything that has the delicacy, feel and accuracy of a BRM Elan, preferably on narrow Dunlop M section vintage race tyres.

[iloveboost]

ORD said:

I find overly assisted and numb steering positively frightening. I dont know how people drive cars like that as quickly as they do. I feel completely lost in most modern cars - no idea what grip I have and where. I respond to that by driving slowly. Others seem to respond by putting the hammer down, though, as the fastest cars I see on most roads are those with zero feedback - the driver has no idea that he is pushing the limits. I have never had any driver's car harass me on twisty roads, only ever things like diesel Insignias and Audis that merrily understeer around every bend and are kept on the road by electronic aids.

I disagree that a driver has 'no idea he's pushing the limits', they just aren't driving near them. The fact that most car manufacturers don't care about driver feedback, shows that most customers don't care about driver feedback. Therefore most customers aren't pushing the limits.
Also how do you know that some of these drivers you claim are driving mundane cars fast, are bad drivers?! Just because it's a s**t car, doesn't mean it's a s**t driver. Surely if you put an average driver in a car with a great chassis it will flatter them, and the opposite is true?!

[iloveboost]

WilsonLaidlaw said:

I have not driven a 570S but the 650S I did drive had the best power steering of any car I have driven, so the views on the 570 come as no surprise. It was even better than my 997 Turbo, which to date, I thought was the pinnacle of power steering. For unpowered steering, I have yet to drive anything that has the delicacy, feel and accuracy of a BRM Elan, preferably on narrow Dunlop M section vintage race tyres.

It's good that they have sorted all the early EPAS issues out, so if a manufacturer wants a car to have real elastic weight and feedback it can have it. I read a lot of steering feel comes from the calibration of the motor, the internal friction of the EPAS (worst on column, best on rack) and the stiffness of the steering rack bushes. With modern EPAS it's maybe more miss than hit, but there have been many rubbish hydraulic racks.

[big_rob_sydney]

ORD said:

Bob's either joking or very much on the spectrum. No great surprise he works in IT.

No, it is indeed true; I do need to understand a problem before trying to solve it.

How do you do it?

[ORD]

big_rob_sydney said:

ORD said:

Bob's either joking or very much on the spectrum. No great surprise he works in IT.

No, it is indeed true; I do need to understand a problem before trying to solve it.

How do you do it?

Not by trying to reduce something complex and, to some extent, subjective with a simple number metric. It will give you something almost completely meaningless.

[John Galt]

RobM77 said:

big_rob_sydney said:

Its been very interesting to see people arguing to and fro. And this to me is the essence of the problem. Its not easy to define, unlike the performance metric.

Its also been quite amusing to see people decry the performance metric, and yet they have nothing to replace it with.

We are still conspicuously absent with our journalistically challenged friend coming to the rescue. So nice to pose the question, then bugger off when you get challenged in reply...

Does enjoyment of a car have to be measured? I've never felt the need to measure my enjoyment of my other passions in life: music, sports, travelling etc.

+1

You've hit the nail on the head with that response.

[NJH]

ORD said:

big_rob_sydney said:

ORD said:

Bob's either joking or very much on the spectrum. No great surprise he works in IT.

No, it is indeed true; I do need to understand a problem before trying to solve it.

How do you do it?

Not by trying to reduce something complex and, to some extent, subjective with a simple number metric. It will give you something almost completely meaningless.

Your not an engineer then because that is how all engineering of large complex systems is done. Designing and building stuff like military aircraft, ships and submarines (and cars for that matter) is exactly that, an enormously large set of small simple well defined steps that have measurable performance criteria associated with them (decomposed requirements). It is right at the heart of the disciplines known as Systems Engineering and Performance Engineering.

Trying to understand what is going on in "steering feel" in objective terms is really important. I made a posting earlier which seems to have escaped the posters since about the different things which cause the steering wheel to move, kickback for example caused by non-optimal geometry. Many cars suffer from this including IMHO many older Porsches that used struts up front combined with stiff bushing and offset wheels, I asked the question if this is really "steering feel" or just "noise" as a lot of the time older cars will be telling you stuff through the wheel you don't really need to know or is helpful. Engineers can and will separate all these things and measure them.

Another reason why I feel the above point is important. Yes I agree that it is great that companies are now looking to put some feel back into the cars, but this is the kicker, no one can believe they will ever go back to ancient suspension design which ends up making the steering wheel writhe about all over the place, it just won't happen.

[CABC]

NJH said:

Your not an engineer then because that is how all engineering of large complex systems is done. Designing and building stuff like military aircraft, ships and submarines (and cars for that matter) is exactly that, an enormously large set of small simple well defined steps that have measurable performance criteria associated with them (decomposed requirements). It is right at the heart of the disciplines known as Systems Engineering and Performance Engineering.

Trying to understand what is going on in "steering feel" in objective terms is really important. I made a posting earlier which seems to have escaped the posters since about the different things which cause the steering wheel to move, kickback for example caused by non-optimal geometry. Many cars suffer from this including IMHO many older Porsches that used struts up front combined with stiff bushing and offset wheels, I asked the question if this is really "steering feel" or just "noise" as a lot of the time older cars will be telling you stuff through the wheel you don't really need to know or is helpful. Engineers can and will separate all these things and measure them.

Another reason why I feel the above point is important. Yes I agree that it is great that companies are now looking to put some feel back into the cars, but this is the kicker, no one can believe they will ever go back to ancient suspension design which ends up making the steering wheel writhe about all over the place, it just won't happen.

fair point.
it's interesting how the first epas on a 911 was criticised. i wonder how much was purists' revolt and how much was 1st gen problems.
the GT86 has a well regarded epas with a lot of feel. it certainly is a little remote compared to a non-pas Elise and clearly not connected with full NVH from bygone days, as per your point. If feedback is back then maybe the engineers can make cars rewarding to drive? The Audi guys and others are going in a different direction though and satisfying their customers' needs to be as remote from the outside road as possible.

[NJH]

I certainly hope so, the two modern cars I have the most experience of however did have one common trait (Megane R26 & Fiat Panda). Both of those cars don't have much feel at normal road speeds but both give all the feedback you need when pushing the tyres to the limit and this is in itself part of the problem. The limits of the Megane R26 are crazy high, it rides bumps and stuff so well that those same insane limits are there on pretty much all UK roads as well. That was perversely what made the Panda a fun car to drive, the grip limits of the standard little wheels and tyres were really low so you got to the point where the steering was more interesting fairly easily and fairly often.

I have a 944 S2 race car without PAS (something Porsche only did on the early 944s and their factory 944 race cars). For one year back in 2010 I drove that car on the road and the steering feel and level of feedback reminded me of old minis from years ago, really amazing level of feel but TBH in normal road driving it could be a bit to much sometimes and having raced the same car with the PAS on (and vastly less feel consequently) I am not 100% convinced it made much difference to either my enjoyment of the car or ability to feel its limits. I think there is a balance in this and agree it is unlikely they will ever go back to the levels of steering wheel movement found in really old non PAS cars.