RE: Feedback is back: Tell Me I'm Wrong
Discussion
My current car (RX8) has less than half the power of my previous and doesn't seem to lack much in terms of outright pace on UK roads. IMO 200bhp is enough to have fun up to 80mph anything faster and you risk of losing your licence if you decide to have some fun and go through the gears.
The most fun I have ever had in a car (on road or track) was in my much missed Caterham Superlight. I felt like I was hard-wired to that car - it was a real extension of me. Of course, large manufacturers making sensible sporting road cars (M135i, Golf R etc) can't hope to get close to the feeling of a 500kg Caterham, but cars of its ilk should be held up as a reference to what they should be capturing the essence of...
Edited by toys on Monday 16th November 16:22
Agree, if you want a manual gearbox, natural aspiration, and hydraulic steering there isn't much being sold now that you could use as a daily driver and buy for a reasonable price. Up to 82k miles in my Z4MC, not sure what I'll replace it with, something older probably. Be interesting to chart the increase in classic car ownership in recent years. I'm sure there must be lots of people buying up alfa 105s and other interesting usable classics and pushing them out of my budget, presumably because they don't want a boring new car as their weekend toy.
smilo996 said:
Another advert sponsored for the Church of PH by VW Sports Cars Div - Porschar.
Getting very tiresome PH - Dan especially.
Erm, you missed the bit where I was prattling on about McLaren then? Or said the Porsche range - bar two notable examples - was in danger of forgetting the need to communicate with its drivers? Or the bit where I said Lotus, Toyota, Ford, Renaultsport and Jaguar also seem to get it? Getting very tiresome PH - Dan especially.
I think the Cayman GT4 IS an important car to single out though, if only because it's the first tentative admission by Porsche that perhaps there is another way to go and the huge reaction to it suggests there is a significant body of people left cold by the current range and craving greater interaction over outright grip and performance. For a mainstream brand I think that's a pretty significant step. A small one. But in the right direction. And where they go others are likely to follow. Love Porsche or hate them, it's a brand with huge influence in this corner of the market both on punters and rivals.
So, yes, I singled out the Cayman as an example. But I also wrote an article titled 'The problem with Porsche' you might also want to check out!
Dan
I agree entirely Dan. It's the simple things like real noise (let's not go there again), the car actually changing gear when you want, rather than when it thinks you should, a steering wheel that is actually connected to the wheels without a dead safety space in the middle, and an throttle pedal that responds proportionately to your input.
I drive a 220bhp Caterham and it is as beautifully progressive and responsive as every cliche ever written about them says. I know exactly what it is doing and it knows exactly what I am doing (or even thinking). My wife's Abarth 500 terrifies me when in Sport mode. It lurches all over the place if you so much as look at the throttle pedal whilst managing the turning circle of the Space Shuttle due to the short gearing of the rack presumably spec'd in an attempt to make it feel 'sporty'. Does sound good though!
I drive a 220bhp Caterham and it is as beautifully progressive and responsive as every cliche ever written about them says. I know exactly what it is doing and it knows exactly what I am doing (or even thinking). My wife's Abarth 500 terrifies me when in Sport mode. It lurches all over the place if you so much as look at the throttle pedal whilst managing the turning circle of the Space Shuttle due to the short gearing of the rack presumably spec'd in an attempt to make it feel 'sporty'. Does sound good though!
hallelujah if the car manufacturers are actually going to go down this route and bring back feel.
as an example:
my wife and I have a 2016 Golf TSi - great little car - very fast for what it is and truly impressive, but......the steering is lifeless, completely and utterly, absolutely no connection to the road whatsoever (thanks, electric power steering). this takes away from the enjoyment of throwing the little hatch around, and squanders much of what is good in the car.
then we get into our '95 993, and life is transformed...the steering is intimately connected to the road and sends messages continually to your hands. life is fun.
point to point, on real roads, the 2016 Golf is probably not significantly slower than the 20-year old Porker. might even be quicker due to the low-rev impetus from the turbo. but in terms of enjoyment, there's no comparison, it's the 993 every time.
as an example:
my wife and I have a 2016 Golf TSi - great little car - very fast for what it is and truly impressive, but......the steering is lifeless, completely and utterly, absolutely no connection to the road whatsoever (thanks, electric power steering). this takes away from the enjoyment of throwing the little hatch around, and squanders much of what is good in the car.
then we get into our '95 993, and life is transformed...the steering is intimately connected to the road and sends messages continually to your hands. life is fun.
point to point, on real roads, the 2016 Golf is probably not significantly slower than the 20-year old Porker. might even be quicker due to the low-rev impetus from the turbo. but in terms of enjoyment, there's no comparison, it's the 993 every time.
TWPC said:
P.S. Re. roads not getting any wider, note the way the Morgan 3W is small enough that you can (well, heaven knows if I could (!) but Monkey Harris can) get the rear end to step out without even crossing the white dividing line in the middle of the road...
See 3:53 of this vid: https://youtu.be/htI3weS49cc
It's pronounced Katerem and not cat er ham? Only took 40+ years to find that one out, haha.See 3:53 of this vid: https://youtu.be/htI3weS49cc
Dan Trent said:
smilo996 said:
Another advert sponsored for the Church of PH by VW Sports Cars Div - Porschar.
Getting very tiresome PH - Dan especially.
Erm, you missed the bit where I was prattling on about McLaren then? Or said the Porsche range - bar two notable examples - was in danger of forgetting the need to communicate with its drivers? Or the bit where I said Lotus, Toyota, Ford, Renaultsport and Jaguar also seem to get it? Getting very tiresome PH - Dan especially.
I think the Cayman GT4 IS an important car to single out though, if only because it's the first tentative admission by Porsche that perhaps there is another way to go and the huge reaction to it suggests there is a significant body of people left cold by the current range and craving greater interaction over outright grip and performance. For a mainstream brand I think that's a pretty significant step. A small one. But in the right direction. And where they go others are likely to follow. Love Porsche or hate them, it's a brand with huge influence in this corner of the market both on punters and rivals.
So, yes, I singled out the Cayman as an example. But I also wrote an article titled 'The problem with Porsche' you might also want to check out!
Dan
Modern cars are very powerful, comfortable and can be driven very quickly. Yet they often lack something for me. I've had a BMW M 135i for just over two years and to be honest I've never taken it out for a morning drive. Don't get me wrong, it is very competent and my wife loves it. The acceleration is great too. But the steering is all wrong and the power delivery horrid.
All the extra power doesn't get you that far on the road in any case. I joined a group of PHers in Scotland earlier in the year. Most were driving GT3s . I was in a 40 year old 911 with just 220 bhp (quite light but in road trim with normal tyres). I didn't have any trouble following and I only missed their power a little bit when overtaking. Driving up to Scotland I would have considered swapping cars but not once I got there as mine was brilliant fun to drive. Since then I've gone even further back to basics by ditching two wheels (although at times I'm finding that only one is necessary...)
All the extra power doesn't get you that far on the road in any case. I joined a group of PHers in Scotland earlier in the year. Most were driving GT3s . I was in a 40 year old 911 with just 220 bhp (quite light but in road trim with normal tyres). I didn't have any trouble following and I only missed their power a little bit when overtaking. Driving up to Scotland I would have considered swapping cars but not once I got there as mine was brilliant fun to drive. Since then I've gone even further back to basics by ditching two wheels (although at times I'm finding that only one is necessary...)
I've got a theory about the direction cars have been going in, that I'm sure might be controversial but hey ho
Seems to me that as a broad generalisation, people who buy cars new rather than second hand are on average more likely to be the sort of person that cares about image (although I appreciate there are some rational reasons to pay the large premium for a brand new car other than simply having a suitably new plate). Performance figures are very much a part of a car's image so might be more important to new car buyers than 2nd hand buyers.
On that basis, cars like the GT86 which have poorer performance figures than similarly priced competitors are never going to do well so the manufacturers don't make them. They might appeal to the person who cares only about the way the car drives but they don't appeal to the person that wants a newer and more impressive car than their neighbour.
Seems to me that as a broad generalisation, people who buy cars new rather than second hand are on average more likely to be the sort of person that cares about image (although I appreciate there are some rational reasons to pay the large premium for a brand new car other than simply having a suitably new plate). Performance figures are very much a part of a car's image so might be more important to new car buyers than 2nd hand buyers.
On that basis, cars like the GT86 which have poorer performance figures than similarly priced competitors are never going to do well so the manufacturers don't make them. They might appeal to the person who cares only about the way the car drives but they don't appeal to the person that wants a newer and more impressive car than their neighbour.
Dan, I challenge you to come up with a recognisable metric for feel.
I am one who believes in the stopwatch. For the most basic reason that it is recognisable the world over, in any language.
Failing that you have people hopelessly wallowing and flailing to convey a point poorly defined and even more poorly articulated.
So while I am one who has ever said the stopwatch never lies, as a professional journalist I ask you: give us an alternative
I am one who believes in the stopwatch. For the most basic reason that it is recognisable the world over, in any language.
Failing that you have people hopelessly wallowing and flailing to convey a point poorly defined and even more poorly articulated.
So while I am one who has ever said the stopwatch never lies, as a professional journalist I ask you: give us an alternative
About 10 years ago I owned a mk1 MX-5. It was the fastest special edition model the factory had produced at the time and the pinnacle of the range, but I rapidly grew tired of the mediocre performance. Since then I've grown up and my views on things have changed, so I thought I'd give the MX-5 another go.
I love it. The straightline performance feels even more woeful than it did in 2005, but I see that almost as a virtue now. The sense of connection is right up there and the way it responds is more focused than I remembered - it definitely feels like a proper sports car at 7/10ths.
The thing is, though, I do want more. Push harder and it feels like its on rails - decent tyres and a recent geo setup easily dominate the 130-ish hp it may have once had. So I've kind of come full circle and decided that I'm now completely happy being outdragged by Transits, but I'd still like another hundred horsepower to give the rear tyres something to think about.
I love it. The straightline performance feels even more woeful than it did in 2005, but I see that almost as a virtue now. The sense of connection is right up there and the way it responds is more focused than I remembered - it definitely feels like a proper sports car at 7/10ths.
The thing is, though, I do want more. Push harder and it feels like its on rails - decent tyres and a recent geo setup easily dominate the 130-ish hp it may have once had. So I've kind of come full circle and decided that I'm now completely happy being outdragged by Transits, but I'd still like another hundred horsepower to give the rear tyres something to think about.
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