RE: Feedback is back: Tell Me I'm Wrong
Discussion
big_rob_sydney said:
Dan, I challenge you to come up with a recognisable metric for feel.
I am one who believes in the stopwatch. For the most basic reason that it is recognisable the world over, in any language.
Failing that you have people hopelessly wallowing and flailing to convey a point poorly defined and even more poorly articulated.
So while I am one who has ever said the stopwatch never lies, as a professional journalist I ask you: give us an alternative
Journalists and humans and convey feel/enjoyment through...words. If you live through numbers you closer to a robot and I honestly can't grasp the point you're trying to make.I am one who believes in the stopwatch. For the most basic reason that it is recognisable the world over, in any language.
Failing that you have people hopelessly wallowing and flailing to convey a point poorly defined and even more poorly articulated.
So while I am one who has ever said the stopwatch never lies, as a professional journalist I ask you: give us an alternative
big_rob_sydney said:
Dan, I challenge you to come up with a recognisable metric for feel.
I am one who believes in the stopwatch. For the most basic reason that it is recognisable the world over, in any language.
Failing that you have people hopelessly wallowing and flailing to convey a point poorly defined and even more poorly articulated.
So while I am one who has ever said the stopwatch never lies, as a professional journalist I ask you: give us an alternative
Hard to quantify feel but you can easily quantify other things that will be detrimental to the stopwatch but improve the involvement of cars. For example, having 3 pedals, no traction or stability control and no ABS will all result in a slower laptime these days, but will certainly offer more driver involvement. The problem is the number of people that don't want to shell out loads of money for a car that would be "beaten" on a trackday by all of its similarly priced competitors.I am one who believes in the stopwatch. For the most basic reason that it is recognisable the world over, in any language.
Failing that you have people hopelessly wallowing and flailing to convey a point poorly defined and even more poorly articulated.
So while I am one who has ever said the stopwatch never lies, as a professional journalist I ask you: give us an alternative
Agreed, for road driving, a light weight car with good feedback and sensible performance is a lot more satisfying than a heavy over tyred monster that only comes alive at 125mph.
I have a Caterham with only 120bhp, and have gone the 160 route by fitting less grippy tyres and it is so much fun on the road at sensible speeds
I admire Toyota and Subaru for putting the BRZ/Gt86 into production, it is the sort of car I really wanted in my 20s and is like a modern replacement for the Capri. If I was buying a 20K + sporting car, that's what I'd buy, I'd let the 300bhp hatch drivers zoom off at the lights and go hunting twisty B roads for some real fun.
I have a Caterham with only 120bhp, and have gone the 160 route by fitting less grippy tyres and it is so much fun on the road at sensible speeds
I admire Toyota and Subaru for putting the BRZ/Gt86 into production, it is the sort of car I really wanted in my 20s and is like a modern replacement for the Capri. If I was buying a 20K + sporting car, that's what I'd buy, I'd let the 300bhp hatch drivers zoom off at the lights and go hunting twisty B roads for some real fun.
There are multiple different layers to the feel question, and of course several physical inputs to the driver that creates that feel.
A simple example often over looked is the seating. If the seat position is not good and your sitting on it rather than in it then your unlikely to get a good feel from the car. Further than that a seat with less padding dramatically increases the drivers awareness of the car moving around underneath, its enough of a reason for fitting bucket seats regardless of considerations for harnesses.
On the steering feel topic I feel its a multi-layered issue with all sorts of things going on. Many older cars have poor geometry which itself causes a lot of the general road imperfections etc. to be fed back through the steering, old 911s with the Porsche strut being an example. It raises the question is steering kick back really feel? Is all that NVH feel? Well it sort of is but is it a good thing? I am not always convinced TBH. My own Megane R26 is a case in point. When I started driving it I was a little let down by the steering feel as for 99% of road driving you just point it and goes where pointed without much drama. It really surprised me on track though coming alive just at the point where you need it when the tyres are scrabbling for grip.
Something not said enough is feel through the brakes. I just can't abide cars that have over-servoed brakes with poor feel in the peddle, its the one thing that will make me hate a car above anything else.
A simple example often over looked is the seating. If the seat position is not good and your sitting on it rather than in it then your unlikely to get a good feel from the car. Further than that a seat with less padding dramatically increases the drivers awareness of the car moving around underneath, its enough of a reason for fitting bucket seats regardless of considerations for harnesses.
On the steering feel topic I feel its a multi-layered issue with all sorts of things going on. Many older cars have poor geometry which itself causes a lot of the general road imperfections etc. to be fed back through the steering, old 911s with the Porsche strut being an example. It raises the question is steering kick back really feel? Is all that NVH feel? Well it sort of is but is it a good thing? I am not always convinced TBH. My own Megane R26 is a case in point. When I started driving it I was a little let down by the steering feel as for 99% of road driving you just point it and goes where pointed without much drama. It really surprised me on track though coming alive just at the point where you need it when the tyres are scrabbling for grip.
Something not said enough is feel through the brakes. I just can't abide cars that have over-servoed brakes with poor feel in the peddle, its the one thing that will make me hate a car above anything else.
big_rob_sydney said:
Dan, I challenge you to come up with a recognisable metric for feel.
I am one who believes in the stopwatch. For the most basic reason that it is recognisable the world over, in any language.
Failing that you have people hopelessly wallowing and flailing to convey a point poorly defined and even more poorly articulated.
So while I am one who has ever said the stopwatch never lies, as a professional journalist I ask you: give us an alternative
We manage to not judge restaurants by the weight of the food or nutritional content. We don't judge books by how many words they have. Yet journalists still manage to review both and we use those reviews to judge where to eat or what to read. So why can the same not be done with cars? Why do they need to have an objective metric? What value does being faster than another car add?I am one who believes in the stopwatch. For the most basic reason that it is recognisable the world over, in any language.
Failing that you have people hopelessly wallowing and flailing to convey a point poorly defined and even more poorly articulated.
So while I am one who has ever said the stopwatch never lies, as a professional journalist I ask you: give us an alternative
T0MMY said:
For example, having 3 pedals, no traction or stability control and no ABS will all result in a slower laptime these days, but will certainly offer more driver involvement.
This is one of the problems with getting cars with "feel". People don't know what makes a good car so look for the wrong things and discount the wrong cars. In a modern car traction and sability control and ABS make no difference at all to the feel. There was a time where they would cut in to early, but in a modern car if any of them you WERE going to lose control. Unless you count driver involvement as more risk of ending up in a hedge, I would say the all increase enjoyment, as you can use more of the car without as much risk. They have no effect at all on feel and feedback.Edited by SteveSteveson on Monday 16th November 20:20
Even the journos are largely complicit in the direction of travel. They obsess about anti-driving things like 'bags of mid range torque' (drives like a diesel), 'accurate, light steering' (zero feel hateful steering) and 'positive brakes' (over-assisted Audi s
t).
Take the 991.1, for example. Anyone playing with an absolutely straight bat should really have announced it much less of a driver's car than the 997 (albeit a better motorway mile muncher):-
Steering feel - worse in the 991 (pretty much a deal breaker for me).
Brake feel - much much worse in the 991 (as above);
Gearbox - 7 gears, almost all of which are absurdly long (as above);
Chassis - stiffer etc (like that matters a bit for road driving, but objectively better so a win here)
Size - a bit bigger but, crucially, no longer (to a lot of people) feels small on our roads. This is a matter of a few centimetres.
Performance - who cares? The 997 was already too fast for our roads so it's adding sugar to treacle. Still, I suppose it should be a win for the 991.
The point is am making, albeit badly, is that nobody has the balls to say 'Faster, quieter, easier to drive and worse for it'. You will see mention of these things, but the car is still lauded as progress and gets 5 stars.
See also the old M3 vs new. Probably an even better example. From brilliance to irrelevance for me.
t). Take the 991.1, for example. Anyone playing with an absolutely straight bat should really have announced it much less of a driver's car than the 997 (albeit a better motorway mile muncher):-
Steering feel - worse in the 991 (pretty much a deal breaker for me).
Brake feel - much much worse in the 991 (as above);
Gearbox - 7 gears, almost all of which are absurdly long (as above);
Chassis - stiffer etc (like that matters a bit for road driving, but objectively better so a win here)
Size - a bit bigger but, crucially, no longer (to a lot of people) feels small on our roads. This is a matter of a few centimetres.
Performance - who cares? The 997 was already too fast for our roads so it's adding sugar to treacle. Still, I suppose it should be a win for the 991.
The point is am making, albeit badly, is that nobody has the balls to say 'Faster, quieter, easier to drive and worse for it'. You will see mention of these things, but the car is still lauded as progress and gets 5 stars.
See also the old M3 vs new. Probably an even better example. From brilliance to irrelevance for me.
SteveSteveson said:
We manage to not judge restaurants by the weight of the food or nutritional content. We don't judge books by how many words they have. Yet journalists still manage to review both and we use those reviews to judge where to eat or what to read. So why can the same not be done with cars? Why do they need to have an objective metric? What value does being faster than another car add?
Beautifully put - same applies to film reviews, and many other things.Sadly if you just concentrate on the stark numbers you end up where cars are now, with Golf Rs, Leon Cupras, Focus RS, etc.
But I think it takes most of us some time to realise this - back in my 20s I had a MKII Escort RS2000 and had a bit of a "dice" with a new Capri 2.8 Injection on an NSL road with a roundabout. I got round that quicker but the Capri sailed past on the uphill straight after it, so I then bought a Capri Injection! It's only recently I realised that the Escort had way more fun potential, although the Capri had quite a bit!
Might be why I saw quite a few fabulous old Fords last night at Wimbledon Stadium (brilliant event with Historic Stock Cars and Historic Hot Rods) that were driven by 40/50+ year olds - stand-outs for me were a 105e Anglia with a Lotus Twin-cam and a MKI Escort Mexico with a Zetec running twin Webers. Oh and in a rather different way a MKI Zephyr with a loud V8!
Should have kept one, or bought one while they were still affordable, as they are very desirable now!
Analogue cars rule.
SteveSteveson said:
T0MMY said:
For example, having 3 pedals, no traction or stability control and no ABS will all result in a slower laptime these days, but will certainly offer more driver involvement.
This is one of the problems with getting cars with "feel". People don't know what makes a good car so look for the wrong things and discount the wrong cars. In a modern car traction and sability control and ABS make no difference at all to the feel. There was a time where they would cut in to early, but in a modern car if any of them you WERE going to lose control. Unless you count driver involvement as more risk of ending up in a hedge, I would say the all increase enjoyment, as you can use more of the car without as much risk. They have no effect at all on feel and feedback.I said it offers more involvement and it clearly does. Driver aids don't increase enjoyment unless enjoyment for you is simply being able to go faster without trying so hard or needing any skill (in which case wouldn't you enjoy a roller coaster more than bombing around a racetrack?). Put it this way...would you enjoy golf more if you had an automatic club which delivers a perfect tee shot if you just hang on to the handle and press a button?
If you view driving as a sport you want it to be a challenge. I don't want braking into a corner to simply be a case of picking a braking point and burying the pedal...I want to have to use judgement and skill. Same with applying the throttle, balancing the car mid-corner, rev matching gear shifts...I want to do it myself, not sit there and have the car do it for me so all I have to do is steer the car and feel like a hero.
SteveSteveson said:
In a modern car traction and sability control and ABS make no difference at all to the feel. There was a time where they would cut in to early, but in a modern car if any of them you WERE going to lose control. Unless you count driver involvement as more risk of ending up in a hedge, I would say the all increase enjoyment, as you can use more of the car without as much risk. They have no effect at all on feel and feedback.
i see your point but don't fully agree.Edited by SteveSteveson on Monday 16th November 20:20
- on many new cars the electronics still kick in too early (for me, not a driving god but i at least try, take it seriously and have some skill)
- where the aids are very subtle drivers aren't always aware of what they did or what the car finished for them. That's unnerving to witness, especially as a passenger.
When you have no aids you respect the car and the road a lot more and seek to feel more (ie try harder) which can be rewarding and makes you a better driver.
i'm in a small minority. Electronics are great for DDs i agree.
TWPC said:
Dan,
Can you ask the McLaren people to go and build something that is road legal in the UK, that they would enjoy and is powered by an engine with less than 200hp, or less than 150hp if they want a real challenge? That should focus their minds...
Thank you
Ford did it 18 years ago. With a silly little Fiesta-based parts-bin special that someone let Jackie Stewart do the suspension set-up for.Can you ask the McLaren people to go and build something that is road legal in the UK, that they would enjoy and is powered by an engine with less than 200hp, or less than 150hp if they want a real challenge? That should focus their minds...
Thank you
The Puma.
123hp in 1037kg. I took the spare, carrier, jack and toolkit from mine, so call it a metric ton.
Not perfect. But the grip, feedback, lack of torque steer (equal length driveshafts!) and zingy little VTC lump were a potent combination. I miss mine.
The ability to carry momentum through corners, roundabouts and other deviations is a great strength, and leads to a less "binary" experience than in statistically superior cars.
macky17 said:
So the choice is terrific acceleration/performance or steering feel/ involvement/fun? Tough choice.
Alternatively:
1) Buy a Noble
2) Have your cake
3) Eat it.
Last one I saw on the road was making ballistic pace.Alternatively:
1) Buy a Noble
2) Have your cake
3) Eat it.
It was also fully locked-up and sliding up onto the grassy centre of a roundabout.
Great cars, but your first mistake might be your last. Forgiving they are not.
My concern is that where feedback used to be the preserve of all analogue cars, the rediscovery of feedback will be limited to niche models and high-end manufacturers. Your McLaren might have great steering, maybe even Porsche might rediscover some tactility, but I suspect more prosaic cars will remain numb. It'll still be harder to have fun in ordinary cars.
Evilex said:
macky17 said:
So the choice is terrific acceleration/performance or steering feel/ involvement/fun? Tough choice.
Alternatively:
1) Buy a Noble
2) Have your cake
3) Eat it.
Last one I saw on the road was making ballistic pace.Alternatively:
1) Buy a Noble
2) Have your cake
3) Eat it.
It was also fully locked-up and sliding up onto the grassy centre of a roundabout.
Great cars, but your first mistake might be your last. Forgiving they are not.
Edited by macky17 on Tuesday 17th November 07:42
Passat Estate - tip runs, holidays, shopping, getting to work
Mini Cooper S Cab - The Mrs, grey day blats, Sunday drives with the Mrs
Westfield SEiW - DRIVING & overtaking supercars and looking at the envy on the drivers kid's faces when they see a noisy orange racing car over take their dads posing pouch that never gets dirty!
Mini Cooper S Cab - The Mrs, grey day blats, Sunday drives with the Mrs
Westfield SEiW - DRIVING & overtaking supercars and looking at the envy on the drivers kid's faces when they see a noisy orange racing car over take their dads posing pouch that never gets dirty!
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