RE: Feedback is back: Tell Me I'm Wrong
Discussion
Pan Pan Pan said:
For driver feedback, and taking the cash into account, the only real world answer is something like a Caterham.
Even small cars, (sports or otherwise) feel like fairly dull, lard barges in comparison, or possibly take up Karting???
I reckon that the feedback in an Elise is better, provided the geo and tyre pressures are spot on. This is partly due to sitting in the middle, rather than right at the back. A Caterham does give more involvement though, yes. Even small cars, (sports or otherwise) feel like fairly dull, lard barges in comparison, or possibly take up Karting???
As you hint at though, for the ultimate you need to ditch the rubber bushed suspension and rubber engine mounts altogether and drive a single seater. As well as combining the Caterham's weight with a true mid engine layout and fully independent suspension, you also get a huge amount more performance than any Caterham (or any road car) would deliver, but that's getting off topic for this thread!
ORD said:
Even the journos are largely complicit in the direction of travel. They obsess about anti-driving things like 'bags of mid range torque' (drives like a diesel), 'accurate, light steering' (zero feel hateful steering) and 'positive brakes' (over-assisted Audi s
t).
The thing is, after you've written a couple of dozen reviews you get tired of pointing out that almost every modern car has negligible steering feedback. t).It's not being complicit in the decline of pure driver's cars, it's being realistic about how you benchmark them. I'd love it if every car out there bore comparison to a Caterham or an Elise, but they're dinosaurs. Glorious dinosaurs, but totally irrelevant to mass produced 21st century cars. The only realistic thing you can do is compare the car to what's out there in a similar class in 2015.
Emissions targets mean turbocharging and electric power steering. It's sad but it's true. I much prefer the induction bark of carbs to fuel injection, but there's no point lamenting that change 30 years after it happened either.
I find it ironic that my son's 2007, 1.25 Fiesta has great steering feel (relatively of course). If it can be done on a budget, why not in cars with so much time and effort invested in them?
Another thing: Anyone noticed how much of a difference removing a standard steering wheel can make? On an Impreza, for example, fitting a smaller aftermarket feel brings masses more feedback. Of course, modern cars have buttons for just about everything on them so it's not an option but it does make you wonder to what extent these huge, heavy, padded wheels are part of the problem.
Another thing: Anyone noticed how much of a difference removing a standard steering wheel can make? On an Impreza, for example, fitting a smaller aftermarket feel brings masses more feedback. Of course, modern cars have buttons for just about everything on them so it's not an option but it does make you wonder to what extent these huge, heavy, padded wheels are part of the problem.
Edited by macky17 on Tuesday 17th November 10:09
Chris71 said:
ORD said:
Even the journos are largely complicit in the direction of travel. They obsess about anti-driving things like 'bags of mid range torque' (drives like a diesel), 'accurate, light steering' (zero feel hateful steering) and 'positive brakes' (over-assisted Audi st).
The thing is, after you've written a couple of dozen reviews you get tired of pointing out that almost every modern car has negligible steering feedback. t).It's not being complicit in the decline of pure driver's cars, it's being realistic about how you benchmark them. I'd love it if every car out there bore comparison to a Caterham or an Elise, but they're dinosaurs. Glorious dinosaurs, but totally irrelevant to mass produced 21st century cars. The only realistic thing you can do is compare the car to what's out there in a similar class in 2015.
Emissions targets mean turbocharging and electric power steering. It's sad but it's true. I much prefer the induction bark of carbs to fuel injection, but there's no point lamenting that change 30 years after it happened either.
cmoose makes a good point that it's partly about marketing to an audience. Most people only see numbers as a way to judge a car. There's some plonker who's written to evo this month saying how Mazda shouldn't have made the MX5 because it doesn't have 300bhp and massive wheels. I do worry that marketing departments listen to these people instead of those who prefer driving their cars to bragging about them down the pub.
macky17 said:
I find it ironic that my son's 2007, 1.25 Fiesta has great steering feel (relatively of course). If it can be done on a budget, why not in cars with so much time and effort invested in them?
Because no amount of clever tuning can overcome the basic laws of physics. A light car with narrow tyres has a huge advantage over something like a 1.6 tonne M3 or a 1.9 tonne M5. That said, I'd like to see the weight on the front tyres of a Cayman compared to a Fiesta... I can't comment on the GT4 as I haven't driven one, but the standard Cayman, whilst having nicely weighted and accurate steering, is somewhat devoid of feel. I'll probably get shouted at for saying that, but back when I was looking at buying a Cayman S I turned up for one of the test drives in my E38 328i and the difference in steering feel was immediately apparent.macky17 said:
Another thing: Anyone noticed how much of a difference removing a standard steering wheel can make? On an Impreza, for example, fitting a smaller aftermarket feel brings masses more feedback. Of course, modern cars have buttons for just about everything on them so it's not an option but it does make you wonder to what extent these huge, heavy, padded wheels are part of the problem.
The steering wheel's inertia will dampen any movements coming back up through the steering column. I've done the same and noticed a difference too.ORD said:
RobM77 said:
That said, I'd like to see the weight on the front tyres of a Cayman compared to a Fiesta... I can't comment on the GT4 as I haven't driven one, but the standard Cayman, whilst having nicely weighted and accurate steering, is somewhat devoid of feel. I'll probably get shouted at for saying that, but back when I was looking at buying a Cayman S I turned up for one of the test drives in my E38 328i and the difference in steering feel was immediately apparent.
Much much bigger tyres on the Cayman, of course, but the 987 has decent steering feel. The 981 has almost none.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Ah... both cars had the larger wheels I think. It doesn't surprise me as BMW are the same (with ride too).On the subject of Porsche steering, I agree, the variorack is the elephant in the room to be honest, I just couldn't get on with it during my test drives. My background is circuit racing, so I always turn in to a corner once at the start and then hold the wheel still until I start the exit phase, rather than feeling my way around. That is one of the most common things that novices get wrong on track and it's one of the most important things I try to maintain when I drive on the road from day to day. For me it's a central principle of good driving and makes driving safer and obviously serves you in much better stead for circuit driving.
To make your initial turn-in accurate enough to not need changing afterwards, you need to learn the rack in a car, which normally takes a corner or two. With the Porsche system, you've actually got two ratios - one for shallow bends and one for tight bends, which I find confusing. Mercedes have the same system on some of their cars, but implement the switchover at a much smaller steering angle, so the lower ratio is only really used for motorway lane changing - all the proper corners are done on the same ratio. The Porsche system has its change right smack bang in the middle of the range of corners you'll take in the car.
I've only spent about an hour with the system (two 30 minute test drives), and it felt wrong for that time. I don't know whether I'd learn it after spending longer with the car, but for me that's too expensive an experiment to carry out!
I don't understand why it's even necessary. The Evora manages fine without it, as do most other sports and GT cars.
The sad fact is that big numbers sell cars to the people who have vast amounts of disposable wealth. They really don't care about how a car might feel on a British B road. Who can blame these car companies for putting profits before the wishes of journos and the majority of the public who will never be able to afford one of these super cars anyway. Spot the trend here... Ferrari...profitable, Lamborghini....profitable, Porsche....profitable. Car manufacturers who build cars displaying some core brand values (Aston/Design, Lotus/Handling) over lap times and BHP, have been struggling for years. Both Aston and Lotus have had to adapt or face bankruptcy (Aston by making a 4x4 and Lotus by offering an auto). For those of us who do appreciate steering feel, involvement and handling, we'll have to be content with an older generation of cars with manual boxes and NA engines. I guess this is one reason the classic and particularly the Porsche market has been flying in recent years.
For me, the difference can be explained in two very telling vids from Youtube. Forget about laptimes and performance figures, forget about respective values etc and focus on the difference in demeanor from each driver as he drives each car on test - old and new.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bziUYnN8Mg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8amcRnmYfM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bziUYnN8Mg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8amcRnmYfM
Evilex said:
macky17 said:
So the choice is terrific acceleration/performance or steering feel/ involvement/fun? Tough choice.
Alternatively:
1) Buy a Noble
2) Have your cake
3) Eat it.
Last one I saw on the road was making ballistic pace.Alternatively:
1) Buy a Noble
2) Have your cake
3) Eat it.
It was also fully locked-up and sliding up onto the grassy centre of a roundabout.
Great cars, but your first mistake might be your last. Forgiving they are not.
robt350c said:
I absolutely adore driving my 1979 MG Midget, as slow as a snail yet much more fun to drive on the way in to work than my Nissan GTR!
The thing is, driving and enjoying a Midget properly requires a degree of skill. Any idiot can sit in a GTR, push the go-pedal, click the gearchange buttons and declare it amazing.Marketing + lowest common denominator = bigger numbers.
chiark said:
But wasn't this the great hope for the GT86/BRZ and the first thing people say is "needs more power"... ;-)
Depends on the car though.A Caterham, regardless of how much power you put in it, is hilarious to drive. There's a sense of occasion along with the feel of being directly connected to everything which brings the car alive - even if it's only got 100bhp.
I've haven't driven a GT86, but the impression I've had from those that have (my dad drove a BRZ) is that it needed a little extra drama to really bring it alive.
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