RE: Feedback is back: Tell Me I'm Wrong

[Chris71]

NDNDNDND said:

Chris71 said:

ORD said:

Even the journos are largely complicit in the direction of travel. They obsess about anti-driving things like 'bags of mid range torque' (drives like a diesel), 'accurate, light steering' (zero feel hateful steering) and 'positive brakes' (over-assisted Audi st).

The thing is, after you've written a couple of dozen reviews you get tired of pointing out that almost every modern car has negligible steering feedback.

It's not being complicit in the decline of pure driver's cars, it's being realistic about how you benchmark them. I'd love it if every car out there bore comparison to a Caterham or an Elise, but they're dinosaurs. Glorious dinosaurs, but totally irrelevant to mass produced 21st century cars. The only realistic thing you can do is compare the car to what's out there in a similar class in 2015.

Emissions targets mean turbocharging and electric power steering. It's sad but it's true. I much prefer the induction bark of carbs to fuel injection, but there's no point lamenting that change 30 years after it happened either.

When I read Evo, I do mentally add a subheading at the start of every review that goes 'like all new cars, this has no steering feel, no throttle response and over-servoed brakes' and assume that all reasoning behind the review is within this context.

cmoose makes a good point that it's partly about marketing to an audience. Most people only see numbers as a way to judge a car. There's some plonker who's written to evo this month saying how Mazda shouldn't have made the MX5 because it doesn't have 300bhp and massive wheels. I do worry that marketing departments listen to these people instead of those who prefer driving their cars to bragging about them down the pub.

Yep. As someone said previously, I suspect this is why the GT86/BRZ isn't selling brilliantly. It's got one of the best EPAS systems around and enough power (just) to make those skinny tyres earn their keep, but so-so statistics make it a niche choice in a mainstream market.

[RobM77]

NDNDNDND said:

When I read Evo, I do mentally add a subheading at the start of every review that goes 'like all new cars, this has no steering feel, no throttle response and over-servoed brakes' and assume that all reasoning behind the review is within this context.

That's so true. There are so many things that they seem to miss, so given the vast level of experience and ability people like Richard, Henry and Jethro have, I can only assume the same as you. The other thing I always assume is that they review cars for what they are and score it in relative terms, not absolute terms. For example, a 'four star' lightweight sports car will almost certainly drive better than a 'five star' super saloon.

[ORD]

It's all about "fitness for purpose", which is obviously the right approach.

[Conscript]

framerateuk said:

chiark said:

But wasn't this the great hope for the GT86/BRZ and the first thing people say is "needs more power"... ;-)

Depends on the car though.

A Caterham, regardless of how much power you put in it, is hilarious to drive. There's a sense of occasion along with the feel of being directly connected to everything which brings the car alive - even if it's only got 100bhp.

I've haven't driven a GT86, but the impression I've had from those that have (my dad drove a BRZ) is that it needed a little extra drama to really bring it alive.

Perhaps it's a matter of experience. The only times I've felt it could do with more power (or rather, torque) are when overtaking or during motorway driving. But in general when just out for a drive on smaller more exciting roads, it's rarely a problem. But then it's the most powerful car I've owned so far.

There are lots of upgrade options for increasing power (forced induction especially) and I have pondered them. But I'm not sure I want to spend the money, especially as I can almost fully exploit the power the car has on UK roads without going absolutely mad. Which I guess is the advantage this article was getting at.

Chris71 said:

NDNDNDND said:

Chris71 said:

ORD said:

Even the journos are largely complicit in the direction of travel. They obsess about anti-driving things like 'bags of mid range torque' (drives like a diesel), 'accurate, light steering' (zero feel hateful steering) and 'positive brakes' (over-assisted Audi st).

The thing is, after you've written a couple of dozen reviews you get tired of pointing out that almost every modern car has negligible steering feedback.

It's not being complicit in the decline of pure driver's cars, it's being realistic about how you benchmark them. I'd love it if every car out there bore comparison to a Caterham or an Elise, but they're dinosaurs. Glorious dinosaurs, but totally irrelevant to mass produced 21st century cars. The only realistic thing you can do is compare the car to what's out there in a similar class in 2015.

Emissions targets mean turbocharging and electric power steering. It's sad but it's true. I much prefer the induction bark of carbs to fuel injection, but there's no point lamenting that change 30 years after it happened either.

When I read Evo, I do mentally add a subheading at the start of every review that goes 'like all new cars, this has no steering feel, no throttle response and over-servoed brakes' and assume that all reasoning behind the review is within this context.

cmoose makes a good point that it's partly about marketing to an audience. Most people only see numbers as a way to judge a car. There's some plonker who's written to evo this month saying how Mazda shouldn't have made the MX5 because it doesn't have 300bhp and massive wheels. I do worry that marketing departments listen to these people instead of those who prefer driving their cars to bragging about them down the pub.

Yep. As someone said previously, I suspect this is why the GT86/BRZ isn't selling brilliantly. It's got one of the best EPAS systems around and enough power (just) to make those skinny tyres earn their keep, but so-so statistics make it a niche choice in a mainstream market.

I agree. I'd also speculate that uncompetitive lease deals aren't helping, when you can get cars with bigger numbers for the same monthly outlay.

[Alex]

I totally agree, so two years ago, I bought a BRZ.

No regrets.

[RobM77]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

I completely agree. Plenty miss this point though, as you can see from reading through plenty of threads on Pistonheads.

[DonkeyApple]

otolith said:

I read a good book recently, would an objective count of the number of pages be a good review?

An interesting point. And yet, those who build a book collection to impress visitors will always go for recognised titles and larger books while also ensuing the book case is in a prominent position. . So for many, the higher the page count the better, along with the right title.

[Vee12V]

Chris71 said:

Yep. As someone said previously, I suspect this is why the GT86/BRZ isn't selling brilliantly. It's got one of the best EPAS systems around and enough power (just) to make those skinny tyres earn their keep, but so-so statistics make it a niche choice in a mainstream market.

It has some major issues though: mainly a st engine, far too tall gearing and stty tyres. Granted those things can be sorted, but it doesn't wow you from the test drive.

[BRR]

Until there is a metric for feel that allows Johnny power bks to tell everyone in the pub why he's better than them it will be a characteristic only relevant to the few

[otolith]

DonkeyApple said:

otolith said:

I read a good book recently, would an objective count of the number of pages be a good review?

An interesting point. And yet, those who build a book collection to impress visitors will always go for recognised titles and larger books while also ensuing the book case is in a prominent position. . So for many, the higher the page count the better, along with the right title.

Yes, I dare say there are people who buy their books by the yard!

[Axionknight]

robt350c said:

I absolutely adore driving my 1979 MG Midget, as slow as a snail yet much more fun to drive on the way in to work than my Nissan GTR!

I have an old Mini my Dad and I did a refurb job on - it's nippy enough but not even remotely fast by todays standards, despite a fairly comprehensive set of modifications, but 30mph feels like 60mph and 60mph feels like 90mph when pressing on for a laugh, what a great way to have fun on a quiet Sunday morning

Getting rid of the front drum brakes was a revelation though, I'd had a few brown trouser moments before we fitted the discs

[EF Ian]

Agree with that.

Only proper petrolheads understand or care about how a car feels as much as or more than the stats.

Can't stand some modern car which may be capable and silly quick but have no feel, leaving you feeling detached from the experience, I especially hate really light steering with no feel or feedback what so ever, that and poor driving position and manual cars that have the pedals setup in such a way that you can't heel toe.

One of the reasons I love my 260Z, its light, very fast thanks to a RB26 and has a perfect driving position, pedal setup and complete lack of driving aids to get in the way, plus the steering feels great and you always know what the front end is doing.

[big_rob_sydney]

Its been very interesting to see people arguing to and fro. And this to me is the essence of the problem. Its not easy to define, unlike the performance metric.

Its also been quite amusing to see people decry the performance metric, and yet they have nothing to replace it with.

We are still conspicuously absent with our journalistically challenged friend coming to the rescue. So nice to pose the question, then bugger off when you get challenged in reply...

[RobM77]

big_rob_sydney said:

Its been very interesting to see people arguing to and fro. And this to me is the essence of the problem. Its not easy to define, unlike the performance metric.

Its also been quite amusing to see people decry the performance metric, and yet they have nothing to replace it with.

We are still conspicuously absent with our journalistically challenged friend coming to the rescue. So nice to pose the question, then bugger off when you get challenged in reply...

Does enjoyment of a car have to be measured? I've never felt the need to measure my enjoyment of my other passions in life: music, sports, travelling etc.

[TWPC]

Evilex said:

TWPC said:

Dan,

Can you ask the McLaren people to go and build something that is road legal in the UK, that they would enjoy and is powered by an engine with less than 200hp, or less than 150hp if they want a real challenge? That should focus their minds...

Thank you

Ford did it 18 years ago. With a silly little Fiesta-based parts-bin special that someone let Jackie Stewart do the suspension set-up for.
The Puma.
123hp in 1037kg. I took the spare, carrier, jack and toolkit from mine, so call it a metric ton.
Not perfect. But the grip, feedback, lack of torque steer (equal length driveshafts!) and zingy little VTC lump were a potent combination. I miss mine.
The ability to carry momentum through corners, roundabouts and other deviations is a great strength, and leads to a less "binary" experience than in statistically superior cars.

Thanks for that, Evilex.
I didn't know Jackie Stewart was involved in the suspension set-up of the Puma - interesting...

[RobM77]

TWPC said:

Evilex said:

TWPC said:

Dan,

Can you ask the McLaren people to go and build something that is road legal in the UK, that they would enjoy and is powered by an engine with less than 200hp, or less than 150hp if they want a real challenge? That should focus their minds...

Thank you

Ford did it 18 years ago. With a silly little Fiesta-based parts-bin special that someone let Jackie Stewart do the suspension set-up for.
The Puma.
123hp in 1037kg. I took the spare, carrier, jack and toolkit from mine, so call it a metric ton.
Not perfect. But the grip, feedback, lack of torque steer (equal length driveshafts!) and zingy little VTC lump were a potent combination. I miss mine.
The ability to carry momentum through corners, roundabouts and other deviations is a great strength, and leads to a less "binary" experience than in statistically superior cars.

Thanks for that, Evilex.
I didn't know Jackie Stewart was involved in the suspension set-up of the Puma - interesting...

Jackie was a consultant for Ford for many years. He walked out (literally!) when they started all the drive by wire over served nonsense, but up until then he had a hand in most Ford cars.

[Crusoe]

Potential there with the Honda S1000 around 1000kg, rear wheel drive and 130ish bhp with a manual gearbox. Toyota S-FR 128bhp, natural aspiration, manual only and 980kg in what they plan as a fun rear wheel drive car. The Fiat 124 basic drivers version being talked about with the light mx5 chassis, steel wheels, manual, stripped interior and rear wheel drive.

All might make great fun interactive cars for daily and weekend use.

[NDNDNDND]

I'd like to see the return of unassisted steering - although in reality this is already a template for the 'future of feedback' i.e. only available in a few niche models (Elise, Exige, Evora (?) and 4C) and marketed out of existence in everything else, even the crappiest hatchbacks.

I've not yet driven a power rack that I prefer to a good unassisted rack - PAS will never give you as much information or confidence - but they're not coming back. Most people would think driving a car without PAS is insane.

Sadly, recent changes to MOT regulations mean you can't remove power steering from a car that was never available without it - so you're not allowed to strip the PAS out of either a Mk3 or Mk4 MX5 for instance, which is a pity. Given Mazda have made a great virtue out of the lightweight of the Mk4 MX5, an unassisted rack option would be terrific. It would also go some way to helping resolve the issues with the chassis - which EVO said was made deliberately softer to roll in corners in lieu of actual feedback.

[JakeT]

TWPC said:

Evilex said:

TWPC said:

Dan,

Can you ask the McLaren people to go and build something that is road legal in the UK, that they would enjoy and is powered by an engine with less than 200hp, or less than 150hp if they want a real challenge? That should focus their minds...

Thank you

Ford did it 18 years ago. With a silly little Fiesta-based parts-bin special that someone let Jackie Stewart do the suspension set-up for.
The Puma.
123hp in 1037kg. I took the spare, carrier, jack and toolkit from mine, so call it a metric ton.
Not perfect. But the grip, feedback, lack of torque steer (equal length driveshafts!) and zingy little VTC lump were a potent combination. I miss mine.
The ability to carry momentum through corners, roundabouts and other deviations is a great strength, and leads to a less "binary" experience than in statistically superior cars.

Thanks for that, Evilex.
I didn't know Jackie Stewart was involved in the suspension set-up of the Puma - interesting...

The fiesta it is based on is a quality little thing too. I bought one as a stop gap two years ago and can't bring myself to get rid. Never breaks, handles beautifully and cost me £900 from its first owner with a years MOT. I can utilise all of it's 75 rampant horses in the first 4 gears and not be over 90mph. Crazy fun.

[Alex]

The best steering feel in a "modern" car that I have experienced was in a mk1 Ford Ka. Superb.