RE: Land Rover Defender 110 Heritage: Driven
Discussion
AW111 said:
I have driven off road a lot, and never yet seen a lane tip a car over - in my experience it is the driver who does that.
I can see the fun of driving an antique land rover, and a few of my friends have them, but LR selling antiques as new "heritage" vehicles is taking the piss, IMO. If you want an old landy, buy an old landy, not a new faux old landy.
Landrovers were once the off-road vehicle of choice for a large part of the world, so in a manner that typifies the British car industry, they said "ok, that's good enough, why bother improving or modernising it", and punched out the same product for 2 or 3 decades past it's use-by date. Add in hopeless unreliability by 1980's standards, and it is no surprise that they lost almost all of the workhorse market to the Japanese.
Several of my friends are into serious outback off-roading, ie crossing deserts, and reliability is critical : none of them drive
Landrovers (or Jeeps) on those trips.
But throw around the words "heritage", "classic", and "icon", and some people will buy anything, and defend it past all rationality.
I take your point about reliability but one of my friends did a solo trip through the outback of Australia in his Defender with not a single prblem. Several others have also done significant overland trips in theirs with no issue (including places like Namibia's deserts). I can see the fun of driving an antique land rover, and a few of my friends have them, but LR selling antiques as new "heritage" vehicles is taking the piss, IMO. If you want an old landy, buy an old landy, not a new faux old landy.
Landrovers were once the off-road vehicle of choice for a large part of the world, so in a manner that typifies the British car industry, they said "ok, that's good enough, why bother improving or modernising it", and punched out the same product for 2 or 3 decades past it's use-by date. Add in hopeless unreliability by 1980's standards, and it is no surprise that they lost almost all of the workhorse market to the Japanese.
Several of my friends are into serious outback off-roading, ie crossing deserts, and reliability is critical : none of them drive
Landrovers (or Jeeps) on those trips.
But throw around the words "heritage", "classic", and "icon", and some people will buy anything, and defend it past all rationality.
Tom Sheppard was a regular user of Land Rovers for his desert trips (he was in the first west to east crossing of the Shara in Land Rover FC101s) but eventually replaced his 300TDi with a G-Wagen not because of reliability issues but because the 300TDi had unpredictable and on occasion excessive fuel consumption when worked hard. Ironically he nearly lost his life in his G-Wagen due to a breakdown when sensors failed for the engine management whilst deep in the desert (he relates this tale in his book "Quiet for a Tuesday" and he also had issues with camshaft timing.
He's now moved onto a Jeep.
Tom is probably one of the most accomplished overlanders on the planet.
My opinion - for what it's worth - I've owned a few Land Rovers over the years and used them as workhorses and in off-road competitions.
I wouldn't buy a new Land Rover Defender now as my motoring needs have changed and I don't want my on-road driving to be done in a (relatively) noisy, unrefined, unergonomic, expensive to service and poorly finished vehicle. I use a specialised vehicle for dedicated off-road now and have a Landcruiser/Grand Cherokee for towing/general off-roading.
I still like the Defender and will be sorry to see them stop building them; my brother-in-law has a 2014 110 and is eagerly awaiting a new one being delivered early 2016 - he loves driving it on the road, says it always puts a smile on his face.
So...horses for courses I guess - if you like them and want one get it, put up with the compromises and enjoy it. If like me they're not for you now then get something else - there's plenty of choice.
I wouldn't buy a new Land Rover Defender now as my motoring needs have changed and I don't want my on-road driving to be done in a (relatively) noisy, unrefined, unergonomic, expensive to service and poorly finished vehicle. I use a specialised vehicle for dedicated off-road now and have a Landcruiser/Grand Cherokee for towing/general off-roading.
I still like the Defender and will be sorry to see them stop building them; my brother-in-law has a 2014 110 and is eagerly awaiting a new one being delivered early 2016 - he loves driving it on the road, says it always puts a smile on his face.
So...horses for courses I guess - if you like them and want one get it, put up with the compromises and enjoy it. If like me they're not for you now then get something else - there's plenty of choice.
AW111 said:
I have driven off road a lot, and never yet seen a lane tip a car over - in my experience it is the driver who does that.
I can see the fun of driving an antique land rover, and a few of my friends have them, but LR selling antiques as new "heritage" vehicles is taking the piss, IMO. If you want an old landy, buy an old landy, not a new faux old landy.
Landrovers were once the off-road vehicle of choice for a large part of the world, so in a manner that typifies the British car industry, they said "ok, that's good enough, why bother improving or modernising it", and punched out the same product for 2 or 3 decades past it's use-by date. Add in hopeless unreliability by 1980's standards, and it is no surprise that they lost almost all of the workhorse market to the Japanese.
Several of my friends are into serious outback off-roading, ie crossing deserts, and reliability is critical : none of them drive
Landrovers (or Jeeps) on those trips.
But throw around the words "heritage", "classic", and "icon", and some people will buy anything, and defend it past all rationality.
The saga you speak of is rather interesting. Sales declined each time a colony obtained independence. The British Govt was always the largest customer and they locked out much of the growing competition from the colonies and so supported the local private demand for Land Rovers while also buying them for all their colonial departments to use. I can see the fun of driving an antique land rover, and a few of my friends have them, but LR selling antiques as new "heritage" vehicles is taking the piss, IMO. If you want an old landy, buy an old landy, not a new faux old landy.
Landrovers were once the off-road vehicle of choice for a large part of the world, so in a manner that typifies the British car industry, they said "ok, that's good enough, why bother improving or modernising it", and punched out the same product for 2 or 3 decades past it's use-by date. Add in hopeless unreliability by 1980's standards, and it is no surprise that they lost almost all of the workhorse market to the Japanese.
Several of my friends are into serious outback off-roading, ie crossing deserts, and reliability is critical : none of them drive
Landrovers (or Jeeps) on those trips.
But throw around the words "heritage", "classic", and "icon", and some people will buy anything, and defend it past all rationality.
As a colony became independent then the local departments became free to buy from countries other than Britain and so did the private buyers. Those countries also seized on this opportunity to get their products into these new markets.
It was the same story with the utility companies, while they were State owned they had Land Rovers bought for them but from the moment they were privatised in the 80s/90s they were free to switch to cheaper alternatives.
And that really just left the MOD as the last big customer and the recent wars in the ME brought that account to a close.
Whether negligence can be angled at Land River is open for debate as the general consensus was that those in Land Rover saw this change and tried to take action but never once had the cash released to them to do anything other than the bare minimum to keep the product legally sellable.
So, in the history of the Land Rover almost all sales have been from the British Government one way or another until we reach today when what is left of Landy sales is mostly private individuals buying a bit of fun as a lifestyle choice as much as anything.
That being the case you can see why JLR will probably bring the car back as a pure lifestyle vehicle as that has really been what its major sales have been for the last decade. And it is what their dealerships are located and set up for.
It's sad but understandable.
skyrover said:
Yes independent suspension technically superior for day to day on-road driving however it simply can not compare with live axle offroad.
Of course it can. What actually matter is the cross axle roll stifness of the system, and you can ultimately engineer an independent suspension system to provide any cross axle roll stiffness you require, just like you can with a beam........... Whilst men with beards like to mumble into them about articulation down t'pub, the other issue is that unless you have an infinitely low spring rate, by the time your axle has articulated, the tyre load is so disparate that the articulation isn't providing any more traction. For example, some systems even unseat the spring to allow greater droop, at which point the only thing keeping the tyre pressed against the ground is the weight of the wheel/tyre itself, so it's providing an absolutely minute amount of extra traction.....Have a look, all the vehicles with high articulation axles also have modified long travel springs (And jelly on a plate dampers), not something easy to do to a defender (not to mention the lack of clearance in the small wheelhouses)
However, what we are talking about is STD vehicles, and as std, a Modern defender, has poor ultimate articulation because (quite sensibly) JLR have ramped up the cross axle stiffness to make it much more tolerable on the road......... (and then added 'lecy cross axle biasing to put back some capability, generally more than most users require)
Max_Torque said:
Of course it can. What actually matter is the cross axle roll stifness of the system, and you can ultimately engineer an independent suspension system to provide any cross axle roll stiffness you require, just like you can with a beam........... Whilst men with beards like to mumble into them about articulation down t'pub, the other issue is that unless you have an infinitely low spring rate, by the time your axle has articulated, the tyre load is so disparate that the articulation isn't providing any more traction. For example, some systems even unseat the spring to allow greater droop, at which point the only thing keeping the tyre pressed against the ground is the weight of the wheel/tyre itself, so it's providing an absolutely minute amount of extra traction.....
I'm sorry but you just wont find any independent suspension vehicles at a serious offroad event.It lends itself well to high speed dashes over rough terrain i,e sand rails or buggies, but is hopeless when it comes to severe terrain.
Have a watch of top truck challenge
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBDQtcp-Mc0
or ultimate offroad adventure
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n31sUxlvLVk&li...
You wont find a single vehicle with independent suspension.
Edited by skyrover on Monday 23 November 19:30
I don't get why people say they're uncomfy.
My 2015 110 is very comfy. It's not as comfy as my old ML63, but it's more comfy than a lot of cars and it's big, and it's fun, and it's tough. I've taken it off road a number of times and done things you couldn't do in a normal car.
Why there's this negativity I don't know - everyone bums G classes, but has a go at Jeep Wranglers and Defenders on here. It's stupid. They're all essentially very similar cars (and I talk from experience, not just having read about them). Solid axle, decent off roaders that you can bash about and are mechanically very simple.
We are so very negative about our own accomplishments - the Defender has conquered continents, seen places most people fear to tread, and even mine has taken 6 people and all their luggage 200 miles without complaint from any of the occupants. It's also gone over boulders, through streams, up very steep hills, and never failed, never broke, never complained. I slightly scratched the bolt on side steps against a rock going down a thin green lane - now that'd be what.... £2000 in a range rover? On a Defender you can simply paint the side step again, or if you're really fussed, buy a new set for £115....
There are very few tough, basic off roaders you can get in the UK anymore - cars are more and more just "white goods". Buy em, swap em when the finance is up... A Defender isn't like that. You can buy one and keep it forever if you like.
It's a pity so many people want SUV's that are good on the road - if you want a road car... buy a road car. Wtf are you buying an off roader for if you don't want it to be good off the highway or when the weathers s
t?
My 2015 110 is very comfy. It's not as comfy as my old ML63, but it's more comfy than a lot of cars and it's big, and it's fun, and it's tough. I've taken it off road a number of times and done things you couldn't do in a normal car.
Why there's this negativity I don't know - everyone bums G classes, but has a go at Jeep Wranglers and Defenders on here. It's stupid. They're all essentially very similar cars (and I talk from experience, not just having read about them). Solid axle, decent off roaders that you can bash about and are mechanically very simple.
We are so very negative about our own accomplishments - the Defender has conquered continents, seen places most people fear to tread, and even mine has taken 6 people and all their luggage 200 miles without complaint from any of the occupants. It's also gone over boulders, through streams, up very steep hills, and never failed, never broke, never complained. I slightly scratched the bolt on side steps against a rock going down a thin green lane - now that'd be what.... £2000 in a range rover? On a Defender you can simply paint the side step again, or if you're really fussed, buy a new set for £115....
There are very few tough, basic off roaders you can get in the UK anymore - cars are more and more just "white goods". Buy em, swap em when the finance is up... A Defender isn't like that. You can buy one and keep it forever if you like.
It's a pity so many people want SUV's that are good on the road - if you want a road car... buy a road car. Wtf are you buying an off roader for if you don't want it to be good off the highway or when the weathers s
t?
kbf1981 said:
I don't get why people say they're uncomfy.
My 2015 110 is very comfy. It's not as comfy as my old ML63, but it's more comfy than a lot of cars and it's big, and it's fun, and it's tough. I've taken it off road a number of times and done things you couldn't do in a normal car.
Why there's this negativity I don't know - everyone bums G classes, but has a go at Jeep Wranglers and Defenders on here. It's stupid. They're all essentially very similar cars (and I talk from experience, not just having read about them). Solid axle, decent off roaders that you can bash about and are mechanically very simple.
We are so very negative about our own accomplishments - the Defender has conquered continents, seen places most people fear to tread, and even mine has taken 6 people and all their luggage 200 miles without complaint from any of the occupants. It's also gone over boulders, through streams, up very steep hills, and never failed, never broke, never complained. I slightly scratched the bolt on side steps against a rock going down a thin green lane - now that'd be what.... £2000 in a range rover? On a Defender you can simply paint the side step again, or if you're really fussed, buy a new set for £115....
There are very few tough, basic off roaders you can get in the UK anymore - cars are more and more just "white goods". Buy em, swap em when the finance is up... A Defender isn't like that. You can buy one and keep it forever if you like.
It's a pity so many people want SUV's that are good on the road - if you want a road car... buy a road car. Wtf are you buying an off roader for if you don't want it to be good off the highway or when the weathers st?
All very interesting but ultimately it's not German so must be sMy 2015 110 is very comfy. It's not as comfy as my old ML63, but it's more comfy than a lot of cars and it's big, and it's fun, and it's tough. I've taken it off road a number of times and done things you couldn't do in a normal car.
Why there's this negativity I don't know - everyone bums G classes, but has a go at Jeep Wranglers and Defenders on here. It's stupid. They're all essentially very similar cars (and I talk from experience, not just having read about them). Solid axle, decent off roaders that you can bash about and are mechanically very simple.
We are so very negative about our own accomplishments - the Defender has conquered continents, seen places most people fear to tread, and even mine has taken 6 people and all their luggage 200 miles without complaint from any of the occupants. It's also gone over boulders, through streams, up very steep hills, and never failed, never broke, never complained. I slightly scratched the bolt on side steps against a rock going down a thin green lane - now that'd be what.... £2000 in a range rover? On a Defender you can simply paint the side step again, or if you're really fussed, buy a new set for £115....
There are very few tough, basic off roaders you can get in the UK anymore - cars are more and more just "white goods". Buy em, swap em when the finance is up... A Defender isn't like that. You can buy one and keep it forever if you like.
It's a pity so many people want SUV's that are good on the road - if you want a road car... buy a road car. Wtf are you buying an off roader for if you don't want it to be good off the highway or when the weathers s
t?t. 
lostkiwi said:
Derek Chevalier said:
I was going to make the same point - quite surprising how rubbish articulation is on a modern defender.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NcDw5FW7oU
And of course a D4 is so much better...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NcDw5FW7oU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avh5fm7eDns
The thing is a Defender is easy to improve off road (either disconnect the ARB of fit the unlocking ones available from 3rd party companies). A D4 on the other hand.....
Derek Chevalier said:
Out of interest how would increasing the D4s articulation improve the off road ability? Traction control seems more than capable of distributing power to wheel(s) with traction whatever the conditions
Traction control fitted to modern Land Rovers works well in maintaining forward progress particularly when all wheels are on the ground. However there are disadvantages when the vehicle reaches the limit of its suspension travel and 'cocks' a wheel (or two) in the air - if it's a front wheel then you could lose some ability to steer the vehicle where you want it to go; additionally the vehicle can lurch quickly as weight transfers and the side that was in the air comes down. This can be a bit disconcerting and make for an uncomfortable ride.Sudden movements are best avoided - better to keep all wheels on the ground if you can
. Derek Chevalier said:
lostkiwi said:
Derek Chevalier said:
I was going to make the same point - quite surprising how rubbish articulation is on a modern defender.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NcDw5FW7oU
And of course a D4 is so much better...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NcDw5FW7oU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avh5fm7eDns
The thing is a Defender is easy to improve off road (either disconnect the ARB of fit the unlocking ones available from 3rd party companies). A D4 on the other hand.....
On a hard dry grippy surface losing grip on one wheel won't create too much of a problem. On an already slippery surface having a wheel in the air reduces the maximum possible remaining grip by 25% meaning a greater risk (especially on a hill) of losing forward momentum as the remaining wheels start to lose grip as the tractive effort exceeds the friction available.
lostkiwi said:
Derek Chevalier said:
lostkiwi said:
Derek Chevalier said:
I was going to make the same point - quite surprising how rubbish articulation is on a modern defender.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NcDw5FW7oU
And of course a D4 is so much better...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NcDw5FW7oU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avh5fm7eDns
The thing is a Defender is easy to improve off road (either disconnect the ARB of fit the unlocking ones available from 3rd party companies). A D4 on the other hand.....
On a hard dry grippy surface losing grip on one wheel won't create too much of a problem. On an already slippery surface having a wheel in the air reduces the maximum possible remaining grip by 25% meaning a greater risk (especially on a hill) of losing forward momentum as the remaining wheels start to lose grip as the tractive effort exceeds the friction available.
Derek Chevalier said:
lostkiwi said:
Derek Chevalier said:
lostkiwi said:
Derek Chevalier said:
I was going to make the same point - quite surprising how rubbish articulation is on a modern defender.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NcDw5FW7oU
And of course a D4 is so much better...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NcDw5FW7oU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avh5fm7eDns
The thing is a Defender is easy to improve off road (either disconnect the ARB of fit the unlocking ones available from 3rd party companies). A D4 on the other hand.....
On a hard dry grippy surface losing grip on one wheel won't create too much of a problem. On an already slippery surface having a wheel in the air reduces the maximum possible remaining grip by 25% meaning a greater risk (especially on a hill) of losing forward momentum as the remaining wheels start to lose grip as the tractive effort exceeds the friction available.
Its about the shear strength of the surface. As soon as you introduce a slope the weight component generates a shearing force at the contact patch. Double the weight and you get double the shearing force. The surface will have a given shear strength before the underlying surface breaks or the tyre exceeds the coefficient of friction and skids.
If 4 wheels are in contact with the ground each individual wheel has less weight so less static shear. If we add power into the equation each wheel also has an amount of power directed to it thus keeping below the shear strength limit. Reduce the number of wheels in contact with the ground and each remaining wheel exerts more shearing force on the terrain below. As the terrain has a fixed shear strength each wheel now operates closer to that limit increasing the possibility of loss of traction.
Note the shear strength is not the coefficient of friction between the tyre and the surface but rather the strength of the underlying surface and its ability to resist the breakdown of the structure. Clay/dirt/mud/gravel/rock/grass all have different shear strengths. The simplest way to see the effect of shear is when on grass. With grass when the shear strength is exceeded the grass will come out by the roots. This is different to when the coefficient of friction is exceeded where the wheel spins on the grass.
Typical 4x4 tyres are designed to maximise traction for a given set of surfaces by use of chunky tread that pushes into the surface beneath them. When the shear strength is exceeded to surface under the tyre that is pushed into the voids in the tread is ripped away from the underlying substrate.
As the shear strength is largely unrelated to the weight of the vehicle more wheels in contact is much more desirable, even if the amount of weight is low. As long as there is enough weight to push some terrain into the voids in the tread the shear strength of the surface will permit traction.
Not sure I've explained that well but hopefully you can see it.
Max_Torque said:
Uhnfortunately as i've tried to point out a few times previously on this thread, as wheel rates are finite (no matter how low) you cannot ever have the same mass on each wheel across an articulated axle........
And as I just pointed out, it doesn't matter as long as you have sufficient weight for the voids in the tyre tread to grip something. Have you ever owned and used a 4x4 off road or are you a theoretical 'expert'?
lostkiwi said:
And as I just pointed out, it doesn't matter as long as you have sufficient weight for the voids in the tyre tread to grip something.
what? If you have a cross axle stiffness larger than zero, you CANNOT ever have the same normal load on the pair of tyres on that axle. Back in the day, tractors would have a completely unsprung front axle for that very reason.Think, properly, about the physical dynamics of the situation.
lostkiwi said:
Have you ever owned and used a 4x4 off road or are you a theoretical 'expert'?
Get you insults in now whilst you have a chance. Read some of my other posts and get back to me on my "expertise"............Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff