RE: Land Rover Defender 110 Heritage: Driven
Discussion
MadDog1962 said:
As many said already, Land Rovers are the classic "marmite" car. I think it's sad to see end of the line for the Defender, and I'm hoping that JLR will have a suitable modern replacement somewhere in the pipeline. It's clearly economics that's finally led to the end of production.
By modern standards the Defender is a bit of a dinosaur. Sure it's capable off-road, but then so is a LandCruiser or Nissan Patrol or a Jeep Wrangler. Landies retain a poor name for reliability and mechanical durability (although some of this may be unfair as they often also cop a lot of abuse). As at least one person mentioned they tend to record a high number of owners as poseurs buy them to tool around 'burbs and cities and find the day to day driving experience in reality very tiresome (not to mention the high running costs).
Unless you're farmer in an upland area, or a serious green lane enthusiast, there no rational argument for owning a Landie. But then there's no rational argument for owning a supercar either. Some people just like them.
Well written. By modern standards the Defender is a bit of a dinosaur. Sure it's capable off-road, but then so is a LandCruiser or Nissan Patrol or a Jeep Wrangler. Landies retain a poor name for reliability and mechanical durability (although some of this may be unfair as they often also cop a lot of abuse). As at least one person mentioned they tend to record a high number of owners as poseurs buy them to tool around 'burbs and cities and find the day to day driving experience in reality very tiresome (not to mention the high running costs).
Unless you're farmer in an upland area, or a serious green lane enthusiast, there no rational argument for owning a Landie. But then there's no rational argument for owning a supercar either. Some people just like them.
I would add that as a general rule the less rational argument for owning any car the better it is as a car.
The world is full of identikit blandness, full of electric motors that ensure the modern princess doesn't have to do anything, full of convenience, practicality and just plain insipid, uninspiring transport devices.
Modern utility transport boxes have more in common with an iPhone on wheels than the traditional concept of a car being a machine that is worked.
And that arguably is what is sad about the end of this car. It is one of the few modern vehicles that links back to an era that has gone.
Today, we live in a world of abject luxury in the UK where no one is cold, no one is hungry and our cars keep us cosseted, distanced, isolated from all around us. The displayed hatred of a product that doesn't comply with the modern expectations, demands of luxury is quite interesting.
DonkeyApple said:
Well written.
I would add that as a general rule the less rational argument for owning any car the better it is as a car.
The world is full of identikit blandness, full of electric motors that ensure the modern princess doesn't have to do anything, full of convenience, practicality and just plain insipid, uninspiring transport devices.
Modern utility transport boxes have more in common with an iPhone on wheels than the traditional concept of a car being a machine that is worked.
And that arguably is what is sad about the end of this car. It is one of the few modern vehicles that links back to an era that has gone.
Today, we live in a world of abject luxury in the UK where no one is cold, no one is hungry and our cars keep us cosseted, distanced, isolated from all around us. The displayed hatred of a product that doesn't comply with the modern expectations, demands of luxury is quite interesting.
The honest truth is that is was never any good on the road - even by the standards of the time - and that is my issue. No problem on farms and in jungles - indeed great - but if is the modern trend to use it as a road car that I don't get. Nowt to do with progress and all to do with triumph of fashion over common sense. IMO anyway I would add that as a general rule the less rational argument for owning any car the better it is as a car.
The world is full of identikit blandness, full of electric motors that ensure the modern princess doesn't have to do anything, full of convenience, practicality and just plain insipid, uninspiring transport devices.
Modern utility transport boxes have more in common with an iPhone on wheels than the traditional concept of a car being a machine that is worked.
And that arguably is what is sad about the end of this car. It is one of the few modern vehicles that links back to an era that has gone.
Today, we live in a world of abject luxury in the UK where no one is cold, no one is hungry and our cars keep us cosseted, distanced, isolated from all around us. The displayed hatred of a product that doesn't comply with the modern expectations, demands of luxury is quite interesting.
PS indeed the "Heritage" sums up everything that is wrong with the car - a cynical marketing ploy and it looks ridiculous next to the real thing.
drmark said:
DonkeyApple said:
Well written.
I would add that as a general rule the less rational argument for owning any car the better it is as a car.
The world is full of identikit blandness, full of electric motors that ensure the modern princess doesn't have to do anything, full of convenience, practicality and just plain insipid, uninspiring transport devices.
Modern utility transport boxes have more in common with an iPhone on wheels than the traditional concept of a car being a machine that is worked.
And that arguably is what is sad about the end of this car. It is one of the few modern vehicles that links back to an era that has gone.
Today, we live in a world of abject luxury in the UK where no one is cold, no one is hungry and our cars keep us cosseted, distanced, isolated from all around us. The displayed hatred of a product that doesn't comply with the modern expectations, demands of luxury is quite interesting.
The honest truth is that is was never any good on the road - even by the standards of the time - and that is my issue. No problem on farms and in jungles - indeed great - but if is the modern trend to use it as a road car that I don't get. Nowt to do with progress and all to do with triumph of fashion over common sense. IMO anyway I would add that as a general rule the less rational argument for owning any car the better it is as a car.
The world is full of identikit blandness, full of electric motors that ensure the modern princess doesn't have to do anything, full of convenience, practicality and just plain insipid, uninspiring transport devices.
Modern utility transport boxes have more in common with an iPhone on wheels than the traditional concept of a car being a machine that is worked.
And that arguably is what is sad about the end of this car. It is one of the few modern vehicles that links back to an era that has gone.
Today, we live in a world of abject luxury in the UK where no one is cold, no one is hungry and our cars keep us cosseted, distanced, isolated from all around us. The displayed hatred of a product that doesn't comply with the modern expectations, demands of luxury is quite interesting.
PS indeed the "Heritage" sums up everything that is wrong with the car - a cynical marketing ploy and it looks ridiculous next to the real thing.
The Rangie Classic is perfectly good on road but then it was what was built to meet the demand from LR users who wanted a more road orientated vehicle and one that had creature comforts.
I actually think the Defender is fine in the road. But at speeds which are appropriate to its design. I have to say that the ones I see cruising at 90 on the M40, well, suffice to say that I don't think that is prudent.
One point to make is that they are the most neglected and abused vehicle on the road. Huge numbers of owners have a 'that'll do' attitude and it is extremely common to drive one which has far too much play in the steering, bad tyre pressures and knackered suspension.
I wouldn't look at them as fashion purchases either. Not completely. Many are bought because they are a cheap, reliable, comfortable, practical and brand new classic car. A lot are bought precisely because they have more in common with a classic car than they have in common with a seat, VW, name, Mercedes, Toyota bore machines of the modern world.
Lets not forget that when it comes to the quality of the drivetrain, land rover severely dropped the ball.
Replace the engine, gearbox and axles with toyota equivalents and you have a car that will literally last forever.
I'm actually swapping my engine for a jeep example, and the gearbox for a chevrolet automatic.
Replace the engine, gearbox and axles with toyota equivalents and you have a car that will literally last forever.
I'm actually swapping my engine for a jeep example, and the gearbox for a chevrolet automatic.
skyrover said:
Lets not forget that when it comes to the quality of the drivetrain, land rover severely dropped the ball.
Replace the engine, gearbox and axles with toyota equivalents and you have a car that will literally last forever.
I'm actually swapping my engine for a jeep example, and the gearbox for a chevrolet automatic.
I never had a gearbox failure in any of my Land Rovers (Defender, RRC, 2 x FC101) but my automatic Toyota Land Cruiser spectacularly failed and needed the gearbox rebuilt. Replace the engine, gearbox and axles with toyota equivalents and you have a car that will literally last forever.
I'm actually swapping my engine for a jeep example, and the gearbox for a chevrolet automatic.
The Land Cruiser Colorado also has a known weakness with teh front differential and the rear diff lock is a continuous source of problems.
In my experience the Land Rover transmission was absolutely fine if a little industrial.
coppice said:
Well I have spent the last 30 odd years in the North York Moors - I see you are in Milton Keynes ? - and rest assured 95% of Land Rovers I see are used for..ahem..lifestyle. Most farming people I know woludn't have a LR given - it's Nissan, Toyota and Mitsubishi all the way
Same story down in Dorset. Our farm for example.Farm beater: 54 Plate double cab D4D Hilux
"Going out" vehicle : 54 plate Land Cruiser
General hack: SWB Pajero
The only people that have LR's are the rather wealthy city crowd that come down on shoots, usually in immaculate Series I or II's to be fair, but still. No thanks.
vtecyo said:
coppice said:
Well I have spent the last 30 odd years in the North York Moors - I see you are in Milton Keynes ? - and rest assured 95% of Land Rovers I see are used for..ahem..lifestyle. Most farming people I know woludn't have a LR given - it's Nissan, Toyota and Mitsubishi all the way
Same story down in Dorset. Our farm for example.Farm beater: 54 Plate double cab D4D Hilux
"Going out" vehicle : 54 plate Land Cruiser
General hack: SWB Pajero
The only people that have LR's are the rather wealthy city crowd that come down on shoots, usually in immaculate Series I or II's to be fair, but still. No thanks.
GOG440 said:
Sorry but this is b
ks
I am 5ft 8
I didnt fit
Well we aren't all built the same. But I bet I know people bigger and taller than you that use Defenders daily and don't complain about comfort.ksI am 5ft 8
I didnt fit
GOG440 said:
I had to lower the window so as to have somewhere to put my right elbow
No you don't. Yes the door is close, but as I explained above, there is good reason for it. But tbh the door is no closer than it is on my smart Roadster.GOG440 said:
first gear was so far away from me that I seriously considered asking my passenger to put it in first for me
Can't say I've ever notice this. Most 90/110 models use the LT-77 5 speed box, you'll find these in some TVR's. Latter ones use the R380, which is just an evolution of the box and used in many low volume production sports cars, such as the MGRV8, HMC's and the like. Latter Defenders use the same 6 speed box you'll find a 2005+ s197 Ford Mustang GT.The only exception is the factory V8's that used the Santana LT-85 gearbox. Now these do have a long throw I agree. But it is a truck afterall. And if you've ever driven any kind of heavy plant or agri machinery of similar era, you really wouldn't think anything of it.
GOG440 said:
the handbrake is so low down it was unusable for me
No it wasn't. It is low, but it is perfectly usable, you just lean forwards a bit. Being able to reach and use the handbrake is an item that is scrutineered for off road competitions and regulated by the MSA. I'm scrutineer for our club and all stock Land Rover's apart from the earliest of Series 1's (1948-50) pass this fine. GOG440 said:
the brakes were absolutely fking scary completely incapable of slowing the vehicle down until you got down under 30 (by a combination of fear and willpower) then they would suddenly grab and turn it left (a bloody sight quicker than the steering)
Definitely something wrong with it. My 300Tdi 90 had enough braking force to easily lock all 4 wheels at 50mph in the dry. Older 90's have drums on the rear, these are more than up to the job, but if neglected might not work very well, so you may have to pump the pedal a bit to get a good feel. But that isn't the vehicles fault, just lack of basic maintenance.king scary completely incapable of slowing the vehicle down until you got down under 30 (by a combination of fear and willpower) then they would suddenly grab and turn it left (a bloody sight quicker than the steering)GOG440 said:
The seat was reasonably comfortable but the steering wheel was like something from a barge and was about 1/2 an inch from your chest.
I did have fun in it once I realised that the only way to drive it was like a big quad, back off, get the front end to bite then get back on the power and balance it in a drift and use the gears not the brakes until you are at walking speed. And this was a meticulously maintained roughly 5 year old example that had just had a brake rebuild (at the dealers).
I wanted to love this car, I have always wanted one, the one I drove was a td5 so sounded pretty good and it was really the only good thing about it.
I drove a mates shed of an L200 and on the road the landrover wouldnt have seen which direction it went, it had a gearbox that you didnt have to be an orangutang to use and it stopped and steered about a million times better.
If the brakes are as you describe, it most definitely had an issue. Most Defenders run bigger better or the same brakes as a Range Rover Classic or Disco 1/2, and those stop fine.I did have fun in it once I realised that the only way to drive it was like a big quad, back off, get the front end to bite then get back on the power and balance it in a drift and use the gears not the brakes until you are at walking speed. And this was a meticulously maintained roughly 5 year old example that had just had a brake rebuild (at the dealers).
I wanted to love this car, I have always wanted one, the one I drove was a td5 so sounded pretty good and it was really the only good thing about it.
I drove a mates shed of an L200 and on the road the landrover wouldnt have seen which direction it went, it had a gearbox that you didnt have to be an orangutang to use and it stopped and steered about a million times better.
I think overall its legacy has kept it popular, its sort of like the ipod is automatically the best mp3 player due to the first one being better than anything else on the market, and windows being the best operating system for pc's for the same reason. People generally thing landrover - off road farm vehicle.
Saying that it definitely looks the part and does the job it was built to do well. And there is just something great about driving one but in terms of reliability, comfort and all round performance a 90's early 2000's era shogun is the way to go.
Saying that it definitely looks the part and does the job it was built to do well. And there is just something great about driving one but in terms of reliability, comfort and all round performance a 90's early 2000's era shogun is the way to go.
vtecyo said:
coppice said:
Well I have spent the last 30 odd years in the North York Moors - I see you are in Milton Keynes ? - and rest assured 95% of Land Rovers I see are used for..ahem..lifestyle. Most farming people I know woludn't have a LR given - it's Nissan, Toyota and Mitsubishi all the way
Same story down in Dorset. Our farm for example.Farm beater: 54 Plate double cab D4D Hilux
"Going out" vehicle : 54 plate Land Cruiser
General hack: SWB Pajero
The only people that have LR's are the rather wealthy city crowd that come down on shoots, usually in immaculate Series I or II's to be fair, but still. No thanks.
One of the local farming contractors still uses Land Rovers, but he's an enthusiast and accepts there are better vehicles available but it's partly a hobby, partly sentimentality.
And that's the point; looked at as purely utilitarian they're outshone by pretty much any Japanese competitor, but most of us on PH buy cars with our hearts and accept the consequent shortcomings as a price worth paying to be able to drive what we really want.
I've had Lotuses when I was doing a lot of trackdays even though they were not the best on the commute, V8 barges when I was doing a lot of miles despite the fuel costs and a Land Rover when we had a smallholding despite a double cab Mitsubishi being more reliable and comfortable.
In my youth I worked on a local farm and we had a series of Series Landies which I absolutely loved driving because 90% of the time we were off road and they went where my Mini 850 was never going to get to (and who doesn't love driving through deep water and mud?). When I could justify a 4x4 for the smallholding there was only ever going to be one choice, regardless of how much better the competition may be. Sometimes with cars, heart wins over head.
A.J.M said:
Impressive. Separate cars, over a 15 year age gap in models from 200tdi to Puma and somehow every one is fked.
You should make the drive up and tell them all what's wrong with them.
Reading the rest of your post, yes it does sound like they all have issues and not really a fair reflection on such vehicles. But maybe you are just picky and overly harsh?ked.You should make the drive up and tell them all what's wrong with them.
A.J.M said:
The ride is terrible, the Puma 110 had a front to back pitch as it rode. Standard ride height. It wouldn't settle down and felt like it was constantly finding bumps to trip over.
Certainly doesn't sound right. The suspension on the 110 hasn't really changed since 1984.... Some different dampers and a choice of spring rates.I wonder if it simply at HD springs (OEM ones) and was unladen. Either that or something like a knackered radius arm/trailing arm bush could result in this behaviour.
Remember an RRC or Disco 1 use essentially the same chassis layout, the same shocks, springs and mountings, with the same axles and location items. The only real difference is wheelbase, a 90 is 92.9", an RRC/D1 is 100" and a 110 is 110".
Ride wise, they should all be the same, allowing for the difference in wheelbase, longer usually smoother. Refinement and NVH are totally different to ride and the RRC/Disco are far superior, this is all down to the body tub design and mounting however.
A.J.M said:
The 90 i did a on and off road competition in ( it's in this months LRM, car 16 ) rode badly, unknown 2 lift kit but it would buck front to back off road as well. Very uncomfortable and hard to read OS maps.
Sadly most lift kits are utter tripe and just use HD springs to lift the vehicle. These are all rubbish. But if you put rubbish springs and shocks on a BMW M3, I'm sure it would ride badly too. Doesn't mean it's the fault of the car.A.J.M said:
The 3 other 90s, have similar wallow and ride bounce. Mixture of standard and 2 inch lifts.
Again with the 2" lifts, nearly all are useless. What's amusing is, they are almost completely unneeded too.Wallow.... well it's a 4x4, it will have some lean. But so do all 4x4's. You can't really say this is bad, it's just a fact of it being an off road capable 4x4.
That said, many RRC's and D1's do not have anti roll bars, a Defender is lighter with a lower centre gravity (body design) and will lean less than they do. As a rule the RRC was praised for it's on road behaviour. So it just shows how context changes people opinions.
Latter Defender can be had with anti roll bars too, so will lean less.
And as I said before, they ride no worse than many sports cars or compact hatchbacks. A Pug 106 doesn't ride any better, yet people rarely complain about it. So why single out the Defender for riding the same then moaning about it?
If you want to see how they can corner, they a look at the vids I posted earlier (I'm assuming you didn't).
A.J.M said:
The TD5 rides the best with no front back wallow, it just wallows side to side. Next is a 300tdi, similar to the td5.
As said, the suspension hasn't changed on them, so yes they should ride and handle very similar. Td5 probably worse in the corners as the Td5 engine is longer and heavier and makes the vehicle more nose heavy. But not by a huge amount.A.J.M said:
Steering, vague, one has a very worn steering box so can't judge that. Other's with rebuilt/recon ones are still wandery.
It's a 4x4 and if you've mostly driven ones with 2" lifts, then I think this is you main issue. Lifting alter the pinion angle of the diff and rotates the axle affecting the steering castor. This pretty much fks up the steering straight off.MT tyres likely won't help, if it's steering feel you want. Non standard rims (usually found on lifted vehicles) will be wider and different off set, again all negatives on steering.
Not too mention there are a lot of balljoints, links and bushes on the steering. If these are in good order, then they steer perfectly fine, no wondering at all! Now you need to remember it does use a box not rack & pinion and is an off roader. So if you are expecting Elise levels of steering, then fool you.
But they steer as well as any other off road capable 4x4, be it a Shogun or a Land Cruiser.
And lets not forget, that again the same steering components are used on the RRC, D1, D2 and p38a Range Rover. All of which steer fine.
A.J.M said:
Every single one has had rust issues, 3 have had to get replacement chassis, the other's have had either a half chassis or crossmembers, A bar, outriggers. Let's not even start on bulkheads.
Well how old or how well looked after are they?My brother has an F reg 90, no welding.
My uncle has a C reg V8 90 original chassis.
And I know of plenty more.
Yes the chassis can rot, but it's easy to replace and usually down to lack of care that they get bad in the first place. And rust isn't exactly uncommon on other vehicles. Have you taken a close look at a Ford Puma, e36 BMW or MK2 MR2 recently????
Pic this year, original crossmember no welding:
The bulkhead??
That's fine too..
A.J.M said:
Every single one bar the Puma has had upgraded seats, RX8 ones bolt in nicely, so do Jeep Grand Cherokee, Saab Turbo, Disco 1 etc.
Standard seats are fine and very comfy, originally designed for a lorry. In fact I find the Puma seats far more uncomfortable than the older ones.Have driven a C plate V8 90 down to Plymouth and back before, plus lots of other trips. About 4 1/2 hours non stop. Was perfectly comfy thank you.
Have some friends that have taken their 90 to Morocco, Tunisia, Portugal and Malta. They also have a Range Rover Sport, which they could use and have toured to the Arctic circle in, but they both prefer the 90 for long distance.
A.J.M said:
It's a design from the 80s and frankly was outdated by the competition years ago. Compare it to a Ranger, Hilux, etc.
It depends how you compare it. Most trucks like the Ranger and other Jap trucks still use leaf rear suspension and ride far worse and handle far worse. And most have lower tow ratings and less suspension travel and comparatively crap off road.They might have more car like interiors, but that's the only thing and something that doesn't really appeal to me anyhow.
A.J.M said:
Better off road, but on road, hopeless and that's it's biggest problem. It has to be better on road adn the current platform can't deliver that.
You see, this is my issue with you. They are not hopeless on road, they'll happily drive about anywhere. My 1970's Series 3 isn't hopeless on road and a Defender is a good step up.I'll give you another example, my Uncle & Aunt when holidaying and touring in Wales a month ago. Did they take their Discovery 2? Nope, they went in their pickup Puma 90, because it's a nicer touring vehicle.
A.J.M said:
For what it's worth, i'm haggling over buying a 53 80" Series 1 that's been imported from New South Wales Australia along with 5 other 80s from a guy in England. Just the small matter of having nowhere to keep it, the purchase price and the fact it needs a rebuild but is pretty much solid, thanks to the nicer climate and them not getting hacked to hell and converted into trialer's like so many 80s here end up. However, that's minor details.
That's great and I applaud it 
But it doesn't alter the fact a Defender is perfectly fine on the road.
skyrover said:
Defender can be very comfortable on the road.
You need a petrol engine for starters, a nice automatic gearbox and air springs.
Camping mats and rubber make good cheap sound insulation and before you know it you have a civilized, practical vehicle.
Very civilised, perhaps a mattress and some egg boxes to complete the look.You need a petrol engine for starters, a nice automatic gearbox and air springs.
Camping mats and rubber make good cheap sound insulation and before you know it you have a civilized, practical vehicle.
coppice said:
Well I have spent the last 30 odd years in the North York Moors - I see you are in Milton Keynes ? - and rest assured 95% of Land Rovers I see are used for..ahem..lifestyle. Most farming people I know wouldn't have a LR given - it's Nissan, Toyota and Mitsubishi all the way
I'm willing to bet if you drive about, you'll see a working Defender on the, especially on market days and often with an Ifor Williams top on.My uncle is a farmer and I grew up on the farm. Not all, but most farmers I know in the local area have Land Rovers.
The road I live on, not a big road and in a village, excluding me, there are 4 other Land Rovers. One is owned by a farm worker/tractor driver, one is owned by a tree surgeon and one is used as a utility vehicle. The last, ok it probably is lifestyle, youngish lad. But it's a Series 3 diesel full tilt, so not a Defender anyhow, just a "classic car".
As a for instance, Google "Welsh hill farm", the first two pics with 4x4's in are of Land Rover's. Not Jap trucks.
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