RE: Land Rover Defender 110 Heritage: Driven

[300bhp/ton]

ELothian said:

Does anybody else hanker after a basic series 1 discovery? It's just about acceptable on road, great off road and a design icon, which really did create a new niche.

They're also very cheap in comparison!

Off to the classifieds now!!!

I think these will pick up in value as the years roll by, especially the 3 door, as tidy ones are rare now.


Under the body, they are almost exactly the same as a Defender, so they have the same on road and off road abilities. The body is bigger and heavier, so a Disco is usually slower, more wallowy and less nimble, but not to any amount that matters.

The difference is, a Defender body is made up or lots of pieces, lots of joins (and gaps) and mounts metal to metal on the chassis. this gives poor NVH. A Disco body is largely one piece and sits on rubber donuts to isolate it from the chassis. They also have far more sound proofing. This gives them a much lower NVH level and much higher refinement.

The Disco also has things like harmonic balancers to reduce noise and vibrations further on the axles and body.


But yes, if you want a Defender that is more roomy, quieter, more refined and more elbow room, but the same rugged off road ability, then the Discovery is exactly that!

[thiscocks]

300bhp/ton said:

Because I've driven them a lot on the road and simply don't agree with you, based on my observations.

A D90 might not be the smoothest ride, but that's due to the short wheelbase. They ride better than a Pug 106 however.

What a 106 which has had all of its suspension removed?

[300bhp/ton]

MadDog1962 said:

Landies retain a poor name for reliability and mechanical durability

I think a lot of this is the typical lets bash British and slate our own products.

It's fair to say Defender can have niggles, some very annoying. But generally they have been very durable and dependable. It's rare one won't get you home. Seriously how did people manage to drive them across most of the globe if they couldn't be depended on.

They all leak, oil out and water in. And electrics light the headlights can play up. But the oily bits and the nuts and bolts, generally they'll hold up very well and even when something fails, they'll still have the ability to make it back.

[300bhp/ton]

drmark said:

My daughter sells these and I considered buying a Heritage - until I drove it. Anachronistic is one thing, but plain awful is quite another. Its departure is about 20 years overdue. Great if you live on a farm, but if you drive one mainly on the road you need your head read

Yet comparatively no worse than using a track car for town driving. Lets face it, if you use a screw driver to hammer a nail in, well it's the wrong tool for the job.

[300bhp/ton]

skyrover said:

Lets not forget that when it comes to the quality of the drivetrain, land rover severely dropped the ball.

Replace the engine, gearbox and axles with toyota equivalents and you have a car that will literally last forever.

I'm actually swapping my engine for a jeep example, and the gearbox for a chevrolet automatic.

I sort of agree.

Land Rover knew their axles were too weak, instead of beefing them up (this was for the 1970's Range Rover), they opted to split the drive between both axles, thus reducing the stress on each axle. Problem solved!

That said, standard Defender axles are generally not too bad with standard size normal MT tyres. It's when you upsize with the extreme treads and then really use it off road that they get their bad rap from.

What I don't understand is, I believe Dana Axles actually build the axles for Land Rover for a number of years. So why on Earth did they never say to Dana,, look lets junk the Rover axle, and you supply a Dana44 with the correct attachment points. The Dana 44 is what you'll find on a JK Jeep or many other trucks and is more than capable of what a Land Rover is used for.

[300bhp/ton]

rouge59 said:

I borrowed my FILs Land Rover to pick up a sofa the other day, & after 9 miles in stop-start traffic I honestly wanted to set fire to it.

Unless you live up a mountain, there really is no good reason to own one of these hateful vehicles.

Why? What was wrong with it? Obviously it served a purpose of getting your sofa, that your Forrester and Porsche couldn't do.

What was wrong with it in traffic? If you say the clutch you are just being a wuss, as the clutch is no heavier than that of a TVR or Triumph TR7.

[Charlie1986]

Deerfoot said:

I had a particularly poor trip from Drawsko Pomorskie training area to Gutersloh, around 400 miles of utter agony in a 110.

I was ready to burn it just outside Hanover.

Try doing that in a FFR in convoy with 16 Dafs towing FEPS generators with some drops!

[skyrover]

woollyjoe said:

Deerfoot said:

They are awful on the road. Hopeless ergonomics, dreadful turning circle and comfort that would be unacceptable to a nomadic goat herder.

I don`t understand how you can think they anything other than woeful on the road.

The worst aspect for me is the pain in my left knee from operating a clutch so heavy and at such an angle it's ridiculous. Clearly people who think it is good have never lived with one. I'm still a fan.

automatic conversion... job jobbed

Vera's land rover is an automatic as the actress can't drive a manual... she pretends to change gear when on screen. BTW all that rust is hand painted

[skyrover]

woollyjoe said:

Why hand paint the rust - just leave it 5 mins surely and it's instant rust.

Even better was that the special effects artists had painted most of the rust onto aluminium panels

[300bhp/ton]

woollyjoe said:

The worst aspect for me is the pain in my left knee from operating a clutch so heavy and at such an angle it's ridiculous. Clearly people who think it is good have never lived with one. I'm still a fan.

My first car was a 300Tdi 90. So yes lived with one. I currently own 2 Series Land Rovers and a Range Rover.

[lostkiwi]

300bhp/ton said:

woollyjoe said:

The worst aspect for me is the pain in my left knee from operating a clutch so heavy and at such an angle it's ridiculous. Clearly people who think it is good have never lived with one. I'm still a fan.

My first car was a 300Tdi 90. So yes lived with one. I currently own 2 Series Land Rovers and a Range Rover.

I had a Defender for 7 years and used it as a daily for a good part of that. I think that qualifies as living with it. And like 300 never found it bad on the road or a chore to live with either.
I also had two FC101s. If you want poor ergonomics thats the vehicle for you. Cramped (made for people no taller than 5ft 6), with a gear shift throw thats three feet long from first to second or third to fourth and longer still second to third (and don't even think about reverse!), steering thats so heavy the steering wheel cant be turned unless moving forward at better than 10mph and with the worlds shortest crumple zone to your legs if you hit anything. I'd have one again in a heartbeat mind!


ETA: My boss came over from the US and he's a dedicated Jeep man. I took him for a ride and he was impressed at how smoothly it rode on the tarmac.

Edited by lostkiwi on Wednesday 18th November 14:39

[coppice]

300bhp/ton said:

I'm willing to bet if you drive about, you'll see a working Defender on the, especially on market days and often with an Ifor Williams top on.

My uncle is a farmer and I grew up on the farm. Not all, but most farmers I know in the local area have Land Rovers.

The road I live on, not a big road and in a village, excluding me, there are 4 other Land Rovers. One is owned by a farm worker/tractor driver, one is owned by a tree surgeon and one is used as a utility vehicle. The last, ok it probably is lifestyle, youngish lad. But it's a Series 3 diesel full tilt, so not a Defender anyhow, just a "classic car".


As a for instance, Google "Welsh hill farm", the first two pics with 4x4's in are of Land Rover's. Not Jap trucks.

Cannot trust a picture which shows anywhere in Wales where the visibility is more than 100m when we all know it is always shrouded by sheets of rain. Admit it - you googled "LR advert on Heartbeat set"....

[Axionknight]

Great vehicles, without a doubt - had some great times with a mate tooling about the woods and hills in one, wouldn't want one as my sole vehicle, though.

[Mave]

300bhp/ton said:

Yet comparatively no worse than using a track car for town driving. Lets face it, if you use a screw driver to hammer a nail in, well it's the wrong tool for the job.

So which is it? Fine and comfortable to drive on the road, or the wrong tool for the job?

[skyrover]

It's a good hobbyist vehicle.

Easy to work on, simple and very versatile.

Think of it as a factory built kit car, but rather than go fast can go anywhere.

You can make them drive well on the road with a little bit of fettling

[RoverP6B]

So what is involved in making a Defender go, steer and stop acceptably?

[DonkeyApple]

RoverP6B said:

So what is involved in making a Defender go, steer and stop acceptably?

In short, a recognition that it isn't a sportscar designed to cruise at 100 on the motorway or pull 1G in a corner.

There isn't anything wrong with the brakes. They are after all designed to work while towing pretty much the biggest weight possible for a PLG.

Steering is fine. When people refer to wandering on motorways etc, that is almost always due to wear in the steering box or off-road tyres.

Another thing people forget is that as this is a ladder chassis design there is a panhard rod and any wear at all in the bushes leads to poor handling/stability. The steering is also designed for off-road use where you want to be able to make small changes with large inputs so if you were going to be a pure road car you'd probably swap to an Adwest closer ratio unit.

I don't think Defenders do, but Classics and the Classic based Discos (1&2) have steering dampers. They can leak or bushes wear and that buggers the feel.

Tyres really are hugely important. The car was designed for narrow tyres to cut through mud to where the grip is. Sticking big fat tyres on doesn't really help. Obviously you also want a pure road tyre not a compromise or all terrain or off-road tyre. That makes an enormous difference. As do tyre pressures. They are high profile tyres and massively susceptible to wrong or mismatched pressures.

I would say that most of any bad handling on Defenders is down to not being a road tyre and not having correct pressures. It makes a massive difference.

As a pure road car you'd also consider lowering the height to sit at the level you'd want for motorway speeds. CofG is lower in Defenders than Classics anyway but 25mm drop on either makes a big difference, along with road focused dampers and springs and beefed up arbs although that's not necessary.

As for making it go, then what you need is to hand it over to JE for a Zulu conversion:

http://jemotorworks.co.uk/reimagined/zulu/

[anonymous-user]

RoverP6B said:

So what is involved in making a Defender go, steer and stop acceptably?

Replacing the entire chassis and suspension with an independent set up. Funnily enough, exactly what JLR did with the Disco3 onwards.....


(the unsprung mass on a defender is huge, and the steering box hopeless, and as it rolls (or hits bump...) it steers (due to the leading/trailing arm setup). You can sort of make them handle, but not without completely destroying the, already poor, ride quality)

[lostkiwi]

Max_Torque said:

RoverP6B said:

So what is involved in making a Defender go, steer and stop acceptably?

Replacing the entire chassis and suspension with an independent set up. Funnily enough, exactly what JLR did with the Disco3 onwards.....


(the unsprung mass on a defender is huge, and the steering box hopeless, and as it rolls (or hits bump...) it steers (due to the leading/trailing arm setup). You can sort of make them handle, but not without completely destroying the, already poor, ride quality)

What a load of tosh. Yes the unsprung mass is high but to change to independent suspension is not the answer as that compromises the off road capabilities by reducing ground clearance. As for poor ride quality they are fine as long as they aren't fitted with HD springs. The steering box is also fine and as was mentioned previously does its job admirably even if they are a little prone to weeping oil.
The entire setup of axles, chassis and steering is almost identical to an RRC and Discovery 1 - the only difference being wheelbase and spring rates and a lighter direct mounted body on top yet no one is saying the RRC rides badly.....

[anonymous-user]

lostkiwi said:

Max_Torque said:

RoverP6B said:

So what is involved in making a Defender go, steer and stop acceptably?

Replacing the entire chassis and suspension with an independent set up. Funnily enough, exactly what JLR did with the Disco3 onwards.....


(the unsprung mass on a defender is huge, and the steering box hopeless, and as it rolls (or hits bump...) it steers (due to the leading/trailing arm setup). You can sort of make them handle, but not without completely destroying the, already poor, ride quality)

What a load of tosh. Yes the unsprung mass is high but to change to independent suspension is not the answer as that compromises the off road capabilities by reducing ground clearance. As for poor ride quality they are fine as long as they aren't fitted with HD springs. The steering box is also fine and as was mentioned previously does its job admirably even if they are a little prone to weeping oil.
The entire setup of axles, chassis and steering is almost identical to an RRC and Discovery 1 - the only difference being wheelbase and spring rates and a lighter direct mounted body on top yet no one is saying the RRC rides badly.....

the IRS models have more static ground clearance than the beam axle models (because the diff is tucked up in the subframe, not stuck at wheel CL height!

The reason a classic RR has an ok ride quality (and it's only "ok" by modern stds) is because it's got jelly soft suspension and small tyres. They handle like an elephant on a skateboard, just with more body roll.........

If JLR could have got the beam axled system to a modern level, they would have done that, but they couldn't (as that would mean breaking the laws of physics) so they sensibly took a small reduction in off road ability (although i'd argue that's more to do with the longer wheelbase, addition of things like low sills, front spoilers and large front read overhangs to improve interior space) for a MASSIVE improvement in on-road manners.