Inspire me.. (With a hint of a dreaded what car)
Discussion
boobles said:
C70R said:
boobles said:
People are deluded if they think any petrol car over lets say a 2.0 will achieve 30mpg or close in the real world!
Unless you drive like a complete wimp or only do motorway driving, then I don't believe some of these quotes. Sorry.
Self-certified 'wimp' here, it would seem. Averaging 28-29mpg in a 330ci, based on a couple of thousand town and motorway miles.Unless you drive like a complete wimp or only do motorway driving, then I don't believe some of these quotes. Sorry.
To add my 2p's worth, I've owned the following:
E36 325i (I took it from 80k miles to 154k miles)
E36 328i (67k to ~93k)
E46 330ci (28k miles to ~33k miles)
Z4 Coupé (10k miles to ~20k miles IIRC) - note this has a low ratio back axle.
All averaged 29-32mpg (mainly A and B roads with some motorway), 35-36 on longer runs (which I would define as mainly motorway and long A roads with few junctions), and around 40-43mpg if I was super careful late at night (i.e. able to flow along without too many changes of speed). The figures of 30mpg and 35-36 include plenty of fast driving using all the revs freely, although I should say that in terms of driving style I rarely brake, preferring to back off and carry speed instead. I'm not one of these people who drives towards a red light or a queue and then brakes 50 yards beforehand, or who tailgates the person in front and is constantly on and off the throttle to maintain the gap.
In conclusion, I think 30mpg+ is easily possible from a BMW over 2 litres if you drive quickly but sympathetically and don't drive in towns too much. On that last point, a friend of mine has a 330ci auto and lives in a city and he's getting 17mpg I think
Conversely, like a lot of people I hardly ever drive in towns and the above are my experiences.Blanchimont said:
I will admit that the 130i is becoming a better proposition. Is it worth getting a facelift (I believe these had oil temp gauges?) over a non?
And as I've owned 2 cars (1 N/A with no power, and 1 turbo'd car) is all the power at the top end, or do they have useable torque too? (I understand that dropping a gear or two will make the progress quicker, I'm just curious about where the torque is)
It's actually better IMO to go for the pre facelift (LCI) as you have slightly better steering. The lack of oil temp isn't an issue really. They are supposed to be slightly better on fuel, I wouldn't know. The N52 is very smooth and totally linear, it sounds lovely at the top. Lots of torque and they feel quite a bit more lively than the 3 series. And as I've owned 2 cars (1 N/A with no power, and 1 turbo'd car) is all the power at the top end, or do they have useable torque too? (I understand that dropping a gear or two will make the progress quicker, I'm just curious about where the torque is)
RobM77 said:
boobles said:
C70R said:
boobles said:
People are deluded if they think any petrol car over lets say a 2.0 will achieve 30mpg or close in the real world!
Unless you drive like a complete wimp or only do motorway driving, then I don't believe some of these quotes. Sorry.
Self-certified 'wimp' here, it would seem. Averaging 28-29mpg in a 330ci, based on a couple of thousand town and motorway miles.Unless you drive like a complete wimp or only do motorway driving, then I don't believe some of these quotes. Sorry.
To add my 2p's worth, I've owned the following:
E36 325i (I took it from 80k miles to 154k miles)
E36 328i (67k to ~93k)
E46 330ci (28k miles to ~33k miles)
Z4 Coupé (10k miles to ~20k miles IIRC) - note this has a low ratio back axle.
All averaged 29-32mpg (mainly A and B roads with some motorway), 35-36 on longer runs (which I would define as mainly motorway and long A roads with few junctions), and around 40-43mpg if I was super careful late at night (i.e. able to flow along without too many changes of speed). The figures of 30mpg and 35-36 include plenty of fast driving using all the revs freely, although I should say that in terms of driving style I rarely brake, preferring to back off and carry speed instead. I'm not one of these people who drives towards a red light or a queue and then brakes 50 yards beforehand, or who tailgates the person in front and is constantly on and off the throttle to maintain the gap.
In conclusion, I think 30mpg+ is easily possible from a BMW over 2 litres if you drive quickly but sympathetically and don't drive in towns too much. On that last point, a friend of mine has a 330ci auto and lives in a city and he's getting 17mpg I think
Conversely, like a lot of people I hardly ever drive in towns and the above are my experiences.I never believe what the MPG dial on the dash is telling me anyway.
yonex said:
The N52 is very smooth and totally linear, it sounds lovely at the top. Lots of torque and they feel quite a bit more lively than the 3 series.
I can second that. It's a beautiful engine, and probably the best all round road car engine I've ever driven when you consider the mpg possible given the bhp and the spread of torque it offers. I can't think of a better engine for someone wanting good economy for reasonable power and nice usability. The lovely straight six sound just tops it off 
As you can see from my list above, I've owned four straight six BMWs and I do miss them, it's just those DBW throttle issue that got in the way eventually - I really tried to adjust but couldn't. That aside, I genuinely think that the 130i is the best all round (i.e. practical for day to day and reasonable running costs) four seater that I've ever driven. The 330i runs it close, but it depends what your priorities are - I went for the 3 series to get a bit of extra space for the things I need to carry around - they also offer more adjustability in driving position, which is something I need due to having a back problem and being very long in the leg.
yonex said:
It's actually better IMO to go for the pre facelift (LCI) as you have slightly better steering. The lack of oil temp isn't an issue really. They are supposed to be slightly better on fuel, I wouldn't know. The N52 is very smooth and totally linear, it sounds lovely at the top. Lots of torque and they feel quite a bit more lively than the 3 series.
Hmm, It may have to be a 130 then, I wanted something that sounded better than a 4cyl, which was why I was initially drawn to the the Focus ST over something like a Mk1 Leon Cupra R, because of the noise it made! But I know that 225hp isn't a huge step up, and that I would end up getting the mountune kit, taking it to 270, which incidentally the BM has already. Plus it's RWD and more fuel efficient than the ST.Edited: To make sense!
Edited by Blanchimont on Tuesday 24th November 16:10
RobM77 said:
yonex said:
The N52 is very smooth and totally linear, it sounds lovely at the top. Lots of torque and they feel quite a bit more lively than the 3 series.
I can second that. It's a beautiful engine, and probably the best all round road car engine I've ever driven when you consider the mpg possible given the bhp and the spread of torque it offers. I can't think of a better engine for someone wanting good economy for reasonable power and nice usability. The lovely straight six sound just tops it off As you can see from my list above, I've owned four straight six BMWs and I do miss them, it's just those DBW throttle issue that got in the way eventually - I really tried to adjust but couldn't. That aside, I genuinely think that the 130i is the best all round (i.e. practical for day to day and reasonable running costs) four seater that I've ever driven. The 330i runs it close, but it depends what your priorities are - I went for the 3 series to get a bit of extra space for the things I need to carry around - they also offer more adjustability in driving position, which is something I need due to having a back problem and being very long in the leg.Blanchimont said:
Hmm, It may have to be a 130 then, I wanted something that sounded better than a 4cyl, which was why I was initially drawn to the the Focus ST over something like a Mk1 Leon Cupra R, because of the noise it made! But I know that 225hp isn't a huge step up, and that I would end up getting the mountune kit, taking it to 270, which incidentally the BM has already. Plus it's RWD and more fuel efficient than the ST.
Edited: To make sense!
I cant see you being disappointed with a 130i and from the owners views on here...they always rave about them, and I like the fact that they have a reasonable sized engine in a small car package. Edited: To make sense!
Edited by Blanchimont on Tuesday 24th November 16:10
cerb4.5lee said:
I cant see you being disappointed with a 130i and from the owners views on here...they always rave about them, and I like the fact that they have a reasonable sized engine in a small car package.
It seems to match the old muscle car ethos of shoehorning the biggest engine possible into a car, make sure it doesn't melt and then sell it. Plus, how many other cars out there can do a geniune 30+mpg on a run, yet make a glorious noise and keep pace with some much more expensive metal, and look so subtle doing it?Blanchimont said:
Plus, how many other cars out there can do a geniune 30+mpg on a run, yet make a glorious noise and keep pace with some much more expensive metal, and look so subtle doing it?
Most M3s with the straight six will do over 30mpg on a run or Z4 coupe with the 3lr (z4m versions have a shorter final drive so I get about 28mpg on a run in mine). 130i is good but not as special as a E46 m3 though cost about half as much to run and almost as quick up to sensible road speeds.300bhp/ton said:
C70R said:
boobles said:
People are deluded if they think any petrol car over lets say a 2.0 will achieve 30mpg or close in the real world!
Unless you drive like a complete wimp or only do motorway driving, then I don't believe some of these quotes. Sorry.
Self-certified 'wimp' here, it would seem. Averaging 28-29mpg in a 330ci, based on a couple of thousand town and motorway miles.Unless you drive like a complete wimp or only do motorway driving, then I don't believe some of these quotes. Sorry.
And that's just the stuff that has a direct affect on a real figure, let alone the numerous claims online that are either lies or massive calculation failures.
I'm of course not saying yours are, but its amazing how much bad data is out there.
For the record, in something like my Roadster I've recorded a low of 38mpg and a high of 67mpg. That's a huge difference, not just in numbers, but percentage too. But claiming either as a Mode average would be pretty stupid. And that's the crux of it, just because one person gets something, doesn't mean you will. So if you are basing your car purchase partly on mpg claims, then you need to consider how 'realistic' it is to achieve them.
A bit of fag-packet maths on a single tank suggests that the trip computer isn't far off the money (within tolerances of my mental maths). Most of my driving time is spent in the city in stop/start traffic, and there isn't really much way to mitigate for that with driving style. Long runs on the motorway usually see the cruise set at 80-85mph, which allegedly returns 30mpg+.
Blanchimont said:
cerb4.5lee said:
I cant see you being disappointed with a 130i and from the owners views on here...they always rave about them, and I like the fact that they have a reasonable sized engine in a small car package.
It seems to match the old muscle car ethos of shoehorning the biggest engine possible into a car, make sure it doesn't melt and then sell it. Plus, how many other cars out there can do a geniune 30+mpg on a run, yet make a glorious noise and keep pace with some much more expensive metal, and look so subtle doing it?Like the 330, the 130 is a decent enough car (marginally more so). But there's no need to suddenly start pretending it's 'greased lightning' quick, nor that it drivers or sounds as good as something truly sporty. It's a compromise car, and a decent one at that, so let's not go OTT.
C70R said:
Blanchimont said:
cerb4.5lee said:
I cant see you being disappointed with a 130i and from the owners views on here...they always rave about them, and I like the fact that they have a reasonable sized engine in a small car package.
It seems to match the old muscle car ethos of shoehorning the biggest engine possible into a car, make sure it doesn't melt and then sell it. Plus, how many other cars out there can do a geniune 30+mpg on a run, yet make a glorious noise and keep pace with some much more expensive metal, and look so subtle doing it?Like the 330, the 130 is a decent enough car (marginally more so). But there's no need to suddenly start pretending it's 'greased lightning' quick, nor that it drivers or sounds as good as something truly sporty. It's a compromise car, and a decent one at that, so let's not go OTT.
most of us get excited about potentially getting a new car...so let him have his glory I say. C70R said:
Steady on there. You're on the verge of canonising a family hatchback with a fairly mainstream engine that you've never driven. The amount of hyperbole on some Readers Cars threads here would make Quentin Wilson blush, so there's no need to add to it.
Like the 330, the 130 is a decent enough car (marginally more so). But there's no need to suddenly start pretending it's 'greased lightning' quick, nor that it drivers or sounds as good as something truly sporty. It's a compromise car, and a decent one at that, so let's not go OTT.
A 330 feels like a barge compared to a 130. Nobody said it's 'greased lightning', they have said smooth, linear, great sounding. It is a 1 series with a great engine, better than the sum of its parts, infinitely more interesting than a Golf etc and a suspension upgrade away from being very tidy. I don't get where you're coming from to be honest?Like the 330, the 130 is a decent enough car (marginally more so). But there's no need to suddenly start pretending it's 'greased lightning' quick, nor that it drivers or sounds as good as something truly sporty. It's a compromise car, and a decent one at that, so let's not go OTT.
otolith said:
boobles said:
People are deluded if they think any petrol car over lets say a 2.0 will achieve 30mpg or close in the real world!
Unless you drive like a complete wimp or only do motorway driving, then I don't believe some of these quotes. Sorry.
Long term average for our 2.3 litre 250bhp Saab 9-5 Aero is a smidge over 29mpg, it gets high thirties on a motorway run. Unless you drive like a complete wimp or only do motorway driving, then I don't believe some of these quotes. Sorry.
As I said before, mpg depends hugely on:
a) the state of tune and efficiency of the engine
b) the type of roads driven on
c) the style of driving
If you live in the countryside (as ~22% of the UK population do) and fly down twisty A, B and C roads at 50-60mph enthusiastically, then a 330i or 130i will easily achieve 30mpg+, because the amount of acceleration is at a minimum and you'll average a fairly economical speed. Throw in the odd motorway at 35-40mpg and it's easy to see how you could average over 30mpg in a 330i. For extra-urban dwellers, there just isn't the opportunity to accelerate much, so degrees of 'enthusiasm' in driving just result in higher cornering speeds, which doesn't hit mpg too much.
On the other hand, two of my friends live in towns and own E46 330cis and one is getting 17mpg and the other low to mid 20s - both drive quite steadily as well!
a) the state of tune and efficiency of the engine
b) the type of roads driven on
c) the style of driving
If you live in the countryside (as ~22% of the UK population do) and fly down twisty A, B and C roads at 50-60mph enthusiastically, then a 330i or 130i will easily achieve 30mpg+, because the amount of acceleration is at a minimum and you'll average a fairly economical speed. Throw in the odd motorway at 35-40mpg and it's easy to see how you could average over 30mpg in a 330i. For extra-urban dwellers, there just isn't the opportunity to accelerate much, so degrees of 'enthusiasm' in driving just result in higher cornering speeds, which doesn't hit mpg too much.
On the other hand, two of my friends live in towns and own E46 330cis and one is getting 17mpg and the other low to mid 20s - both drive quite steadily as well!
yonex said:
C70R said:
Steady on there. You're on the verge of canonising a family hatchback with a fairly mainstream engine that you've never driven. The amount of hyperbole on some Readers Cars threads here would make Quentin Wilson blush, so there's no need to add to it.
Like the 330, the 130 is a decent enough car (marginally more so). But there's no need to suddenly start pretending it's 'greased lightning' quick, nor that it drivers or sounds as good as something truly sporty. It's a compromise car, and a decent one at that, so let's not go OTT.
A 330 feels like a barge compared to a 130. Nobody said it's 'greased lightning', they have said smooth, linear, great sounding. It is a 1 series with a great engine, better than the sum of its parts, infinitely more interesting than a Golf etc and a suspension upgrade away from being very tidy. I don't get where you're coming from to be honest?Like the 330, the 130 is a decent enough car (marginally more so). But there's no need to suddenly start pretending it's 'greased lightning' quick, nor that it drivers or sounds as good as something truly sporty. It's a compromise car, and a decent one at that, so let's not go OTT.
I agree that it's absolutely a decent steer for the cash, but hardly worth getting super-duper-excited about. It's still a family hatch with a mainstream, albeit very competent, engine. At £5-6k I would probably go for the 130 on principle of it being the newer car and marginally quicker; but that doesn't suddenly make it some sort of sports car, or even the best drive for the money.
I realise I've only been here a short while, and may not quite fully understand the protocol. However, some of the journo-esque revisionism of otherwise mediocre cars is frequently cringeworthy.
C70R said:
I've driven a 330 Sport coupe and a 5dr 130 (no idea of spec), and I can't really see where the 'barge' comparison comes from. There's only 70kg and 30bhp between them, albeit both in favour of the 130, so we're hardly comparing a family load-lugger with a focused sports car.
I agree that it's absolutely a decent steer for the cash, but hardly worth getting super-duper-excited about. It's still a family hatch with a mainstream, albeit very competent, engine. At £5-6k I would probably go for the 130 on principle of it being the newer car and marginally quicker; but that doesn't suddenly make it some sort of sports car, or even the best drive for the money.
I realise I've only been here a short while, and may not quite fully understand the protocol. However, some of the journo-esque revisionism of otherwise mediocre cars is frequently cringeworthy.
What do you expect, you are on a motoring forum where people discuss their cars?I agree that it's absolutely a decent steer for the cash, but hardly worth getting super-duper-excited about. It's still a family hatch with a mainstream, albeit very competent, engine. At £5-6k I would probably go for the 130 on principle of it being the newer car and marginally quicker; but that doesn't suddenly make it some sort of sports car, or even the best drive for the money.
I realise I've only been here a short while, and may not quite fully understand the protocol. However, some of the journo-esque revisionism of otherwise mediocre cars is frequently cringeworthy.
On the contrary, I think the 130i is worth getting excited about because;
- It's the last of the decent NA BMW engines
- It's a big torquey engine in a compact car
- It looks like a 118d
- Underneath the stroppy runflats and bean counter suspension it has a good chassis - which Birds will help liberate
yonex said:
C70R said:
I've driven a 330 Sport coupe and a 5dr 130 (no idea of spec), and I can't really see where the 'barge' comparison comes from. There's only 70kg and 30bhp between them, albeit both in favour of the 130, so we're hardly comparing a family load-lugger with a focused sports car.
I agree that it's absolutely a decent steer for the cash, but hardly worth getting super-duper-excited about. It's still a family hatch with a mainstream, albeit very competent, engine. At £5-6k I would probably go for the 130 on principle of it being the newer car and marginally quicker; but that doesn't suddenly make it some sort of sports car, or even the best drive for the money.
I realise I've only been here a short while, and may not quite fully understand the protocol. However, some of the journo-esque revisionism of otherwise mediocre cars is frequently cringeworthy.
What do you expect, you are on a motoring forum where people discuss their cars?I agree that it's absolutely a decent steer for the cash, but hardly worth getting super-duper-excited about. It's still a family hatch with a mainstream, albeit very competent, engine. At £5-6k I would probably go for the 130 on principle of it being the newer car and marginally quicker; but that doesn't suddenly make it some sort of sports car, or even the best drive for the money.
I realise I've only been here a short while, and may not quite fully understand the protocol. However, some of the journo-esque revisionism of otherwise mediocre cars is frequently cringeworthy.
On the contrary, I think the 130i is worth getting excited about because;
- It's the last of the decent NA BMW engines
- It's a big torquey engine in a compact car
- It looks like a 118d
- Underneath the stroppy runflats and bean counter suspension it has a good chassis - which Birds will help liberate
As a newbie I quite like this place, as it's less prone than single-marque forums to embarrassing, circlejerk 'love-ins'. However, when you read owners evangelising about the "roadholding and dynamic handling" of their budget tyre-shod 1.6 hatchbacks, it's hard not to cringe a little.
For what it's worth I can think of plenty of things I would class as a better steer than a 130 for £5k, mostly those that aren't 5dr family cars (Z4, Boxster, MR2 mk2, S2000 etc.). None of this diminishes the 130's abilities as a solid all-rounder (which I absolutely don't dispute), but it's surely that's not worth getting all 'frothy of trouser' over.
There are some idiosyncrasies about this place that I'm trying to 'get', so you may need to bear with me. For example, the frequently-panned GT86 is often criticised for its lack of pace; yet its book figures are comparable (half a second on the quarter mile) with the 130 that people laud so highly as being 'sporty'.
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