RE: Lotus Elise at 20: PH Heroes
Discussion
It's all very subjective, but I've done a back to back S1 and S2 comparison (at a dealership), plus had experience of both cars over the years and personally I prefer the S2. This is largely dependent on spec though, for example the standard S2 ran 20mm lower than the standard S1, so was much more secure in direction changes for example, but the same was also true of the Lotus Sports Suspension (LSS) option on the S1. The S2 also had a number of things made uniquely for it, for example the tyres, all of which were improvements over the 'off the shelf' items fitted to the S1. As you mentioned, the S1 also produced lift (moreso at the rear), whereas the S2 produced mild downforce (moreso at the rear), so the high speed handling was very different. The S1 was lighter though, and arguably purer, so it remains a matter of personal opinion.
ps: Regarding the seats, that must depend on your bum.
I couldn't spend more than an hour in an S1 without quite a bit of pain, but the S2 was fine - I drove mine around Europe on several occasions. A good friend of mine used his Elise for a motorway commute and permanently used a cushion. Again though, I'm sure upgrades are available on the S1 to fix that.
ps: Regarding the seats, that must depend on your bum.
I couldn't spend more than an hour in an S1 without quite a bit of pain, but the S2 was fine - I drove mine around Europe on several occasions. A good friend of mine used his Elise for a motorway commute and permanently used a cushion. Again though, I'm sure upgrades are available on the S1 to fix that.Edited by RobM77 on Monday 23 November 12:06
Vee12V said:
False I'm afraid, S2s have considerably worse heaters than s1s.
Oh dear! I've read a lot about the VX220 having poor heaters but I thought the S2 had solved that issue. What is it that makes the heaters so poor? I know that logically, the best setup for ease of heating would be having the engine in front of the driver with air pressure feeding the heater matrix and blowing into the cabin, but my MR2 Turbo never struggled to duct hot air through, even without the fan turned up, so obviously it can be done (and some days, my MR2 was frozen shut when I went out to it!).Baryonyx said:
Vee12V said:
False I'm afraid, S2s have considerably worse heaters than s1s.
Oh dear! I've read a lot about the VX220 having poor heaters but I thought the S2 had solved that issue. What is it that makes the heaters so poor? I know that logically, the best setup for ease of heating would be having the engine in front of the driver with air pressure feeding the heater matrix and blowing into the cabin, but my MR2 Turbo never struggled to duct hot air through, even without the fan turned up, so obviously it can be done (and some days, my MR2 was frozen shut when I went out to it!).Baryonyx said:
Oh dear! I've read a lot about the VX220 having poor heaters but I thought the S2 had solved that issue. What is it that makes the heaters so poor? I know that logically, the best setup for ease of heating would be having the engine in front of the driver with air pressure feeding the heater matrix and blowing into the cabin, but my MR2 Turbo never struggled to duct hot air through, even without the fan turned up, so obviously it can be done (and some days, my MR2 was frozen shut when I went out to it!).
The (early) S2 had a smaller heater matrix than the S1 and the fan was also pretty useless. Increasing the speed of the fan just increased the noise levels with no appreciable increase in movement of air. The small matrix means the air never gets hot. It's tepid at best. Compare with my S1, which is able to cook the occupants of the car inside of 10 miles from a cold start.I don't know if the newer HVAC-equipped S2s are any better, but my 2001 S2's heater was an afterthought at best.
There must have been a change in the heaters later on. I had a 2002 Elise sport 135, which never ever warmed up. I remember a particularly cold schlepp down the M1 from work and it was baltic. Bought an Exige new in 2009 and the heating was never an issue with it blowing nice and toasty very quickly. Night and day difference between the two.
Great article...
I've used an Elise as a daily driver for 13 years .. Its just a fabulous way to start and finish every day .. Really lifts your mood.
My first Elise Sport 135 (slightly modified) that I did 122,000miles in 13 years..and sold just 3 months ago, to a nice guy that came all the way from Scotland to buy off me in Warwickshire .. Just goes to show how far people are willing to go for them !!.
My Current Elise S Club racer (with all the right options, except the forged wheels) that I bought a month ago to carry on me Elise adventure. Really missed driving one in the 2 month gap as I looked for the right new one !!
I've used an Elise as a daily driver for 13 years .. Its just a fabulous way to start and finish every day .. Really lifts your mood.
My first Elise Sport 135 (slightly modified) that I did 122,000miles in 13 years..and sold just 3 months ago, to a nice guy that came all the way from Scotland to buy off me in Warwickshire .. Just goes to show how far people are willing to go for them !!.
My Current Elise S Club racer (with all the right options, except the forged wheels) that I bought a month ago to carry on me Elise adventure. Really missed driving one in the 2 month gap as I looked for the right new one !!
Baryonyx said:
I did have a rather interesting chat with an ex-Lotus lead vehicle engineer. Quite an interesting chap, with a lot to say about the Elise. The big revelation that I never expected to hear was that the M100 Elan was considered a better car by the Lotus test team. Faster round a track, better made, better engines, better suited to British roads and near-as comparable in terms of driver feedback and handling. However, the Elise project was pushed on because buyers thought they knew best and the M100 wasn't going to save the company, especially as it was getting older. I lived with my mam and dad at the time and was thinking about buying an M100 or an Elise, but the case for the M100 was pretty strong as they were really cheap at the time.
Surprised anyone from Lotus would say that. Complete car (interior comfort wise) yes but it was very poorly built and poor design to build. Styling was compromised (Stevens hates it)warranty claims put the company on its knees and GM put it up for sale. They are quick and great fun especially for a fwd but nothing like an Elise. Resin transfer lamination of grp was about the only interesting thing the engineers seemed to take from it.AL5026 said:
There must have been a change in the heaters later on. I had a 2002 Elise sport 135, which never ever warmed up. I remember a particularly cold schlepp down the M1 from work and it was baltic. Bought an Exige new in 2009 and the heating was never an issue with it blowing nice and toasty very quickly. Night and day difference between the two.
I had the same 'poor heater' problem on my 2001 S2 Elise Sport 135 ... The way I got round this problem was to slow the air flow going into the heater matrix.. I did this by just removing the grill and squeezing 2 washing up sponges into the 2 inlets just behind the front grill .. get black ones or at least with the dark gren ones so they are not so visible .. Worked a treat, though a bit more whistly !!Lawrence5 said:
Baryonyx said:
I did have a rather interesting chat with an ex-Lotus lead vehicle engineer. Quite an interesting chap, with a lot to say about the Elise. The big revelation that I never expected to hear was that the M100 Elan was considered a better car by the Lotus test team. Faster round a track, better made, better engines, better suited to British roads and near-as comparable in terms of driver feedback and handling. However, the Elise project was pushed on because buyers thought they knew best and the M100 wasn't going to save the company, especially as it was getting older. I lived with my mam and dad at the time and was thinking about buying an M100 or an Elise, but the case for the M100 was pretty strong as they were really cheap at the time.
Surprised anyone from Lotus would say that. Complete car (interior comfort wise) yes but it was very poorly built and poor design to build. Styling was compromised (Stevens hates it)warranty claims put the company on its knees and GM put it up for sale. They are quick and great fun especially for a fwd but nothing like an Elise. Resin transfer lamination of grp was about the only interesting thing the engineers seemed to take from it.PeterGadsby said:
Years ago I had a Lotus Elise S1 in the exact same colour as the car in the article (mustard yellow) ... I wonder where R417 FAV is now
- Pete
According to the MOT history site its still going strong, passing MOTs with aplomb and doing around 1000 mile pa (up to 48k now)- Pete
otolith said:
Lawrence5 said:
Baryonyx said:
I did have a rather interesting chat with an ex-Lotus lead vehicle engineer. Quite an interesting chap, with a lot to say about the Elise. The big revelation that I never expected to hear was that the M100 Elan was considered a better car by the Lotus test team. Faster round a track, better made, better engines, better suited to British roads and near-as comparable in terms of driver feedback and handling. However, the Elise project was pushed on because buyers thought they knew best and the M100 wasn't going to save the company, especially as it was getting older. I lived with my mam and dad at the time and was thinking about buying an M100 or an Elise, but the case for the M100 was pretty strong as they were really cheap at the time.
Surprised anyone from Lotus would say that. Complete car (interior comfort wise) yes but it was very poorly built and poor design to build. Styling was compromised (Stevens hates it)warranty claims put the company on its knees and GM put it up for sale. They are quick and great fun especially for a fwd but nothing like an Elise. Resin transfer lamination of grp was about the only interesting thing the engineers seemed to take from it.Having said that, a lot of highly respected engineers and professional racing drivers don't 'get' the Elise. I've spoken to many well known people in motorsport and R&H who fall into this category (I think it would be unfair to repeat their names here though). Their criticisms are normally based around the weight distribution and/or the lack of straight line performance. In my humble opinion, what these people often don't consider is the relatively low price of the Elise compared with the cars they're comparing against (Pagani, Lola, McLaren etc!!), and the fact that on the public road (probably not the environment they drove the Elise in), feedback, control weighting and involvement mean far more than ultimate handling and performance, and it's feedback, handling and involvement that the Elise truly excels at (pun not intended!).
I test drove one when they first came out, back in the day when you could walk into a Lotus dealer and they'd throw you the keys and ask you to bring it back in an hour or two. Of course it was awesome, and later I had a S1 111S which was every bit as good as the test drive - day in, day out. It's very tempting to get another... but then the Evora is the grown up car (and now we have kids). What a choice - car for me, or car for the family?
j90gta said:
Is there such a thing as a bad Lotus from the last 30 years? Sadly hate to be the messenger of doom again but have it on good authority that they only built 5 (yes five!!!) cars last week. Somebody please save the company before it's too late.
Not sure where the rumours are coming from. According to SMMT they had a perfectly reasonable October, and when we visited them they were producing at a normal rate. Certainly they seemed to be on track for a solid first year under Gales' control.Edited by Tuna on Monday 23 November 15:07
RobM77 said:
otolith said:
Lawrence5 said:
Baryonyx said:
I did have a rather interesting chat with an ex-Lotus lead vehicle engineer. Quite an interesting chap, with a lot to say about the Elise. The big revelation that I never expected to hear was that the M100 Elan was considered a better car by the Lotus test team. Faster round a track, better made, better engines, better suited to British roads and near-as comparable in terms of driver feedback and handling. However, the Elise project was pushed on because buyers thought they knew best and the M100 wasn't going to save the company, especially as it was getting older. I lived with my mam and dad at the time and was thinking about buying an M100 or an Elise, but the case for the M100 was pretty strong as they were really cheap at the time.
Surprised anyone from Lotus would say that. Complete car (interior comfort wise) yes but it was very poorly built and poor design to build. Styling was compromised (Stevens hates it)warranty claims put the company on its knees and GM put it up for sale. They are quick and great fun especially for a fwd but nothing like an Elise. Resin transfer lamination of grp was about the only interesting thing the engineers seemed to take from it.Having said that, a lot of highly respected engineers and professional racing drivers don't 'get' the Elise. I've spoken to many well known people in motorsport and R&H who fall into this category (I think it would be unfair to repeat their names here though). Their criticisms are normally based around the weight distribution and/or the lack of straight line performance. In my humble opinion, what these people often don't consider is the relatively low price of the Elise compared with the cars they're comparing against (Pagani, Lola, McLaren etc!!), and the fact that on the public road (probably not the environment they drove the Elise in), feedback, control weighting and involvement mean far more than ultimate handling and performance, and it's feedback, handling and involvement that the Elise truly excels at (pun not intended!).
It's funny, most modern cars are now very easy to drive fast and totally uninvolving, I think Lotus chose the right direction.
Tuna said:
I test drove one when they first came out, back in the day when you could walk into a Lotus dealer and they'd throw you the keys and ask you to bring it back in an hour or two. Of course it was awesome, and later I had a S1 111S which was every bit as good as the test drive - day in, day out.
Very well put. This is what I was getting at when I said that I never got bored or fed up of mine. I distinctly remember the magical ride and handling when I first drove an Elise, and that was just as strong in my mind every single time I drove the car (which was 5 days a week when it was my only car).With respect to the other comment about Lotus having never made a bad car in the last 30 years, I agree, and that sensation when driving the Elise has indeed been present in every Lotus model that I've tried from that period (Esprit, Elise S1, Elise S2, Exige S2, 2-Eleven, Exige S3, Evora). Very light but feelsome steering, magic carpet ride but with very little body roll (how do they do that?), immediate reactions, linear responses and that wonderful feeling of being in the car and at one with it, not 'on' it and somehow controlling it. Unlike most manufacturers, Lotus also seem to get better with every passing year. The very latest cars, particularly the Exige S, are astoundingly good. If I was to write down everything I look for in a road car, then the current Exige S not only ticks every box, it goes beyond that. I like to chat about cars (as I'm sure many of you will have noticed!, but the V6 Exige S remains the only car to leave me speechless with its sheer competence in every single area.
On the note of Lotus' tenuous grip on profit, sometimes I do wonder how well Lotus would do if they had the budget or Porsche or Ferrari, but then I realise that the only way to get that sort of budget is to appeal to the same market that buy Porsches or Ferraris, and that would inevitably mean losing most of what makes a Lotus a Lotus (as discussed above). Instead I would like Lotus to continue working at converting whatever percentage of Porsche and Ferrari buyers have no interest in a trinket, a luxury car or a statement of wealth, and instead just love driving.
skatureliya said:
AL5026 said:
There must have been a change in the heaters later on. I had a 2002 Elise sport 135, which never ever warmed up. I remember a particularly cold schlepp down the M1 from work and it was baltic. Bought an Exige new in 2009 and the heating was never an issue with it blowing nice and toasty very quickly. Night and day difference between the two.
I had the same 'poor heater' problem on my 2001 S2 Elise Sport 135 ... The way I got round this problem was to slow the air flow going into the heater matrix.. I did this by just removing the grill and squeezing 2 washing up sponges into the 2 inlets just behind the front grill .. get black ones or at least with the dark gren ones so they are not so visible .. Worked a treat, though a bit more whistly !!
Tuna said:
I test drove one when they first came out, back in the day when you could walk into a Lotus dealer and they'd throw you the keys and ask you to bring it back in an hour or two. Of course it was awesome, and later I had a S1 111S which was every bit as good as the test drive - day in, day out. It's very tempting to get another... but then the Evora is the grown up car (and now we have kids). What a choice - car for me, or car for the family?
Have a good mate who works within the group; the lack of leadership from on high leaves alot to be desired. As previously stated they have reduced their ordering of parts from 70 to 20 cars per week and they are struggling to even pay for those. Cash flow is a huge problem and the owners either haven't the funds or don't seem to went to put their hands in their pockets. They have lost too many good staff who haven't been replaced.
j90gta said:
Is there such a thing as a bad Lotus from the last 30 years? Sadly hate to be the messenger of doom again but have it on good authority that they only built 5 (yes five!!!) cars last week. Somebody please save the company before it's too late.
Not sure where the rumours are coming from. According to SMMT they had a perfectly reasonable October, and when we visited them they were producing at a normal rate. Certainly they seemed to be on track for a solid first year under Gales' control.Have a good mate who works within the group; the lack of leadership from on high leaves alot to be desired. As previously stated they have reduced their ordering of parts from 70 to 20 cars per week and they are struggling to even pay for those. Cash flow is a huge problem and the owners either haven't the funds or don't seem to went to put their hands in their pockets. They have lost too many good staff who haven't been replaced.
Edited by Tuna on Monday 23 November 15:07
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