RE: Volkswagen Golf GTI Clubsport: Driven

[mat205125]

aka_kerrly said:

hufggfg said:

If they'd lost 150kgs.

Quick question for you, have you ever taken a standard road car, stripped all the interior leaving just 2 seats, removed all the sound deadening, electric gubbins like windows/stereo/air con?

I ask because I have had a couple of track cars based on standard road models and shifting 150kg of weight is no where near as easy as you are making out.

Given the mk7 Golf GTI 3 door manual weighs in at 1,348kg (source VW press release 2015) removing 150kg is not as simple as taking the rear seats & stereo out!

For reference a Renault Megane 275 Trophy is 1376kg (source Renault Technical spec 2015) and a Trophy R weighs 1297kg (same source) - R has no air con, no stereo, no rear seats , polycarbonate front seats, titanium exhaust but offset against bigger wheels/brakes so it's weight distribution in worse than a standard model (+1%)


So taking a Golf and removing 150kg takes it's weight below 1200kg!

Top research skills.

If I'd have guesstimated, I'd have put this Golf as heavier than the regular Megane, and amazed it's only 50kg heavier than the Trophy R.

That's a great achievement.

[aka_kerrly]

hufggfg said:

TBH, I just used 150kgs as an example.

Of course, they can call it whatever they want, and we can all argue semantics, but I think most of us were hoping for something a little bit more towards the "involving" end:

Ok, so the weight reduction was a tad optimistic but how can you already determine that a car is not "involving" based on one article, or have you had a chance to track one ??

Guvernator said:

Yep 150kg isn't really achievable without getting drastic but 50-70kg is which would have been enough to be noticeable.

I wish people would stop talking about ripping out the rear seats on a hot hatch though, totally pointless.

I agree that all the talk of losing the rear seats is a bit silly in the grand scheme of things but it's being used as a benchmark based on other Clubsport models from different manufactures.

Finally I have to say that all this talk of 50-70kg being noticeable in a 1300kg 250hp road car is getting a bit silly.

I struggle to believe the claim that you notice a difference in a cars overall handling/performance when 11 stone is added ( average weight of a woman in uk)!!! Do some of you really believe that your car feels radically different with 2 people sat in it compared to 1?? ( less than that if you consider the average UK male is 13 stone.

If you did back to back comparisons say 10 laps solo and 10 laps with an 11 stone passenger are you really expecting to find seconds per lap?

An extreme example I remember reading ages ago about F1 cars (circa 700kg/900hp)was that an extra 10kg adds 0.3 seconds to a lap time. In Karting the figure is said to be a bit more due to the huge difference in power compared to a F1 car but we are talking about a road car that I bet most owners wouldn't take anywhere near a track.

[hufggfg]

aka_kerrly said:

Ok, so the weight reduction was a tad optimistic but how can you already determine that a car is not "involving" based on one article, or have you had a chance to track one ??

I certainly don't KNOW, but judging by the line in the article which I quoted:

Someone who has actually driven the car said:

Clubsport or not, it's still a Golf GTI and a more mature, rounded, street-biased car than its looks and brief might suggest.

With regards to weight. On the road, no, I probably wouldn't be able to tell the difference 50-70kgs makes most of the time. On track I certainly can, I've tracked several of my cars with and without passengers, and it makes a marked difference to how the car feels, under acceleration, braking, and in particular in direction changes.

[Dr Interceptor]

mat205125 said:

Top research skills.

If I'd have guesstimated, I'd have put this Golf as heavier than the regular Megane, and amazed it's only 50kg heavier than the Trophy R.

That's a great achievement.

Look at the MINI as an example too.... the 1st Gen GP dropped the rear seats in favour of a non-structural strut bar, rear wash wipe delete, aluminium rear arms from the R56, no glovebox, air con was optional, but it gained a larger intercooler, wing and aero parts. The net result was 40kg off the standard car.

[aka_kerrly]

hufggfg said:

With regards to weight. On the road, no, I probably wouldn't be able to tell the difference 50-70kgs makes most of the time. On track I certainly can, I've tracked several of my cars with and without passengers, and it makes a marked difference to how the car feels, under acceleration, braking, and in particular in direction changes.

So we do agree that on a road car driven on the road one average person's weight makes next to know difference.

I think we both know that the bulk of these GTI Clubsports aren't likely to do any racing where times matter and perhaps only a few will venture onto track days (where of course no timing is allowed...)

[hufggfg]

aka_kerrly said:

I think we both know that the bulk of these GTI Clubsports aren't likely to do any racing where times matter and perhaps only a few will venture onto track days (where of course no timing is allowed...)

Agreed. The car they've created would not be the choice if you wanted something to do trackdays in... which is kinda of the point I'm making I guess. I wish they had had a design brief where that 75kgs WAS important, because it was a car designed to be used on track.

I'm not saying they should have literally created a racer, but something more akin to a Trophy-R philosophy (whether with or without back seats doesn't matter to me), rather than a GTI Edition 30 philosophy.

Don't get me wrong, I'm always glad faster and more extreme versions exist, but this seems like a massive missed opportunity to create something really special.

[Wish]

The reason I've gone for the Clubsport is I've had a mk7 GTI pp which I loved. It was a good all rounder. Comfortable and tame around town, lively on a B road and good handling and great for popping over to Belgium ever so often.

I then had a brain wave to buy a new s3 ii didn't like it. In fact I sold it after 3 weeks.
The golf is a good car that does everything well. I did consider a focus but it was t really want I was Lookimg for and couldn't see it parked outside a 5 star hotel at the weekend, snobby I know.


I'm looking forward to the Clubsport, I really hope the seats are standard !

[h5lrw]

Even if the seats are an option they will be on my list for the driver enjoyment factor.

Mine will definitely be on-track, in fact it has acquired a bit of a special job already ;-)

[Wish]

The seats will be in mine. Stunning.

[kmack]

I wonder whether its just a remapped GTI engine or a de-tuned Golf R engine?

[va1o]

kmack said:

I wonder whether its just a remapped GTI engine or a de-tuned Golf R engine?

Leon Cupra engine!

[tomv1to]

Just give us an Up GT please with those seats.

Thanks

[T16OLE]

I've no doubt it's a brilliant car, however it just seems pointless when you can buy an R.

[BBS-LM]

Looks a great car, I would properly have this over the Golf R just because it lighter, and the Golf R Haldex 4WD system is just terrible on track, but the package is just let down by the brakes again by VW. But as other people have said the new Focus RS has made a problem for most hot hatches at the £30K price point, and I would take that any day of the week over the GTI.

[Legacywr]

I have a deposit on a Focus RS, but this car is very interesting too!

[epom]

tomv1to said:

Just give us an Up GT please with those seats.

Thanks

Doubt they'd fit how about an up with say 220bhp and any seats they like

[Msportman]

KEdition 40 would be more appropriate

I own a couple of GTI's one is my road GTI which can carry the family in comfort and is still in its current spec very capable. It's an Edition 30 running APR stage 2+ upgraded map fuel pump DP and exhaust DSG box with a Wavetrack slipper in the box AP floating discs and KW Clubsport coil overs White line anti lift and H&R ARB and APR inter cooler
I can run it on track if I want but it comfortably puts out 365-370 bhp and its power delivery is super smooth.
I bought it standard but cheap and it made more sense to modify to my own personal requirements for fast road and occasional track use rather buying a bog standard Golf R getting bored with and then spending another 5-6k on mods.
I costed the car and options and it came in at £36k. Add another £6k for mods and it's a £42k car.....R8 M5 money.
By tastefully modding what was a £9k car and make it into a real sleeper it made more sense. Some the mods I can sell when it comes to resell.

For track I own a VW cup spec MK2 16v which punches way above its weight on sticky Dunlop track rubber. It looks OE for when I bring it out for summer use. It weighs under 1000 kilos and its engined ( the spec is too long to list here) is tuned to road going 205bhp @ 8000. A great light weight package with no ANS. ESP, AR etc etc!

The R is great for road and OK for track but my friends in the tuning industry wiI'll warn issues surrounding turbo failures and DSG boxes over heating on track.

I always believe there are so many compromises in making a common hot hatch quick for track. Anything heavy but powerful RS4 / 6 springs to mind) are very average on track.

I'm looking forward to the new RS and trying it out. I don't want buy new and always buy second hand.

Shame that VW have yet to release the R400!

Edited by Msportman on Thursday 26th November 22:14

[Kolbenkopp]

epom said:

Doubt they'd fit how about an up with say 220bhp and any seats they like

Heh, I'd even settle for 150 from the 1.4 ACT. Should be plenty fast in an Up but still frugal (despite the cheated CO2 values). Not going to happen though, and in the current mess they are in chances are they will be even more risk averse for a few years.

Question about the Clubsport: did they explain why they went with that overboost setup? Fuel economy? Cheaper internals? We know that engine is good for 300+ PS in other applications. Seems strange to restrict a limited edition über-GTI in that way.

[iloveboost]

How much is a similar spec Leon Cupra compared to this? Same powertrain obviously.

[neckarsulm]

Does the 12 o'clock mark on the steering wheel work just as well for understeer as it does for oversteer?

I owned a Mk7 R for 7000 miles and it was technically very good but just didn't feel special.

With bucket seats and those alcantara bits the CS interior will be distinctly different to the TDIs even with your eyes shut which can't be said of the R. I've heard from a respected journalist that the clever GTI PP diff makes the not that great Haldex AWD system of the 7R redundant (apart from off road or on snow) so being lighter and yet with a similar power to weight ratio I can believe it will be give the R a run for its money, Sub 8 Leon does confirm its effectiveness.

Let's hope they tuned some proper induction and exhaust noise this time rather that stupid fake sound device from the 7R. If it's got that I am not buying it, it's the aural equivalent of having an ESP system make up for a chassis's deficiencies.