Williams motors on Rogue Traders
Discussion
itcaptainslow said:
AdeTuono said:
Mark Benson said:
But when you sell cars SOR, you're liable to pay the seller once the car's off the lot.
You then have to put your hand in your own pocket if the buyer comes back with warranty work (you're a dealer remember, no 'sold as seen').
There were some high end cars in that showroom, so he could be out a fair amount on repairs pretty quickly.
2 or 3 of those and if you don't have the cash in the bank, you need to find another way to pay your sellers....
'Well when I sell X's car, I'll pay back Y, until then I'll tell Y his car's still here'
Another warranty claim or two and you're into full blown Ponzi territory and your business model relies on you keeping half a dozen sellers waiting while you find a dozen more buyers to fill the financial black hole you're stuck in.
Excuse my ignorance, but why would he be out of pocket on a warranty claim? Isn't that covered by the warranty company?You then have to put your hand in your own pocket if the buyer comes back with warranty work (you're a dealer remember, no 'sold as seen').
There were some high end cars in that showroom, so he could be out a fair amount on repairs pretty quickly.
2 or 3 of those and if you don't have the cash in the bank, you need to find another way to pay your sellers....
'Well when I sell X's car, I'll pay back Y, until then I'll tell Y his car's still here'
Another warranty claim or two and you're into full blown Ponzi territory and your business model relies on you keeping half a dozen sellers waiting while you find a dozen more buyers to fill the financial black hole you're stuck in.
Providing 3rd party warranties with used cars costs a dealer money, which we know this guy is loathe to do.
When I said warranty work, what I was referring to was the kind of thing a disgruntled punter will bring a car back to a dealer for and may take the small claims route if not satisfied.
Given what I saw on the iplayer link earlier, I suspect he didn't bother with 'official' warranty cover and hoped punters will get bored and get their faults fixed themselves, the few who end up going through small claims will probably be the only ones he paid out on.
A few of those may well be enough to nail a cash-poor trader to the wall and result in him needing to 'manage' an increasing queue of sellers.
Mark - I don't think it matters whether cars are SOR or not, the dealer is still in the same position. He's got his margin, and that's it. The margin should stay in the business for the occasional time the dealer needs to back a car when it goes wrong.
This t
t clearly keeps no money in his business, and spends it on cars he can't afford.
This t
t clearly keeps no money in his business, and spends it on cars he can't afford.hornetrider said:
Mark - I don't think it matters whether cars are SOR or not, the dealer is still in the same position. He's got his margin, and that's it. The margin should stay in the business for the occasional time the dealer needs to back a car when it goes wrong.
This tt clearly keeps no money in his business, and spends it on cars he can't afford.
Yep, too many dodgy business people use their businesses account like their own piggy banks.This t
t clearly keeps no money in his business, and spends it on cars he can't afford.Mark Benson said:
itcaptainslow said:
AdeTuono said:
Mark Benson said:
But when you sell cars SOR, you're liable to pay the seller once the car's off the lot.
You then have to put your hand in your own pocket if the buyer comes back with warranty work (you're a dealer remember, no 'sold as seen').
There were some high end cars in that showroom, so he could be out a fair amount on repairs pretty quickly.
2 or 3 of those and if you don't have the cash in the bank, you need to find another way to pay your sellers....
'Well when I sell X's car, I'll pay back Y, until then I'll tell Y his car's still here'
Another warranty claim or two and you're into full blown Ponzi territory and your business model relies on you keeping half a dozen sellers waiting while you find a dozen more buyers to fill the financial black hole you're stuck in.
Excuse my ignorance, but why would he be out of pocket on a warranty claim? Isn't that covered by the warranty company?You then have to put your hand in your own pocket if the buyer comes back with warranty work (you're a dealer remember, no 'sold as seen').
There were some high end cars in that showroom, so he could be out a fair amount on repairs pretty quickly.
2 or 3 of those and if you don't have the cash in the bank, you need to find another way to pay your sellers....
'Well when I sell X's car, I'll pay back Y, until then I'll tell Y his car's still here'
Another warranty claim or two and you're into full blown Ponzi territory and your business model relies on you keeping half a dozen sellers waiting while you find a dozen more buyers to fill the financial black hole you're stuck in.
Providing 3rd party warranties with used cars costs a dealer money, which we know this guy is loathe to do.
When I said warranty work, what I was referring to was the kind of thing a disgruntled punter will bring a car back to a dealer for and may take the small claims route if not satisfied.
Given what I saw on the iplayer link earlier, I suspect he didn't bother with 'official' warranty cover and hoped punters will get bored and get their faults fixed themselves, the few who end up going through small claims will probably be the only ones he paid out on.
A few of those may well be enough to nail a cash-poor trader to the wall and result in him needing to 'manage' an increasing queue of sellers.
http://www.williamsmotor.co.uk/warranty
Theres a lot of bile on this thread even for a PH thread! Tarring all of us dealers with the same brush. I have a few cars in on SOR at the moment. They are tucked up safe and will be settled on the day of purchase when they do go. I have a proven track record with SOR and a good relationship with customers that have bought and sold.Certainly havent had any panicked phone calls with people wanting their cars back! This will be the case for many traders up and down the country who do try hard would never indulge in the kind of dishonest and underhand tactics employed by Williams.
Outfits like Williams are bad for all of us but I'm sure each and every person on this thread will have had many positive experiences with dealers.
Outfits like Williams are bad for all of us but I'm sure each and every person on this thread will have had many positive experiences with dealers.
hornetrider said:
Mark - I don't think it matters whether cars are SOR or not, the dealer is still in the same position. He's got his margin, and that's it. The margin should stay in the business for the occasional time the dealer needs to back a car when it goes wrong.
This tt clearly keeps no money in his business, and spends it on cars he can't afford.
If he has stock, he has assets he can sell. A Showroom full of other people's cars however.....This t
t clearly keeps no money in his business, and spends it on cars he can't afford.AdeTuono said:
So were the people who left their cars for him to sell. Dishonest dealer is dishonest.I've had a bombsite dealer 'forget to post' my warranty registration before, so it's not unheard of.
In the interest of balance though, the last small trader I dealt with when buying the Jag was exemplary.
Mark Benson said:
hornetrider said:
Mark - I don't think it matters whether cars are SOR or not, the dealer is still in the same position. He's got his margin, and that's it. The margin should stay in the business for the occasional time the dealer needs to back a car when it goes wrong.
This tt clearly keeps no money in his business, and spends it on cars he can't afford.
If he has stock, he has assets he can sell. A Showroom full of other people's cars however.....This t
t clearly keeps no money in his business, and spends it on cars he can't afford.sa_20v said:
MrFappyFappy said:
sa_20v said:
Some but not all. 
>semi retired; 34Lottery winner (at best)
Criminal
Inheritance
jonah35 said:
What business did you set up and run/sell stephen?
Could you share your success story please
I ran online marketing related ventures (built some of the first price comparison websites and then built one of the first automated marketing platforms). Could you share your success story please
hornetrider said:
Mark Benson said:
hornetrider said:
Mark - I don't think it matters whether cars are SOR or not, the dealer is still in the same position. He's got his margin, and that's it. The margin should stay in the business for the occasional time the dealer needs to back a car when it goes wrong.
This tt clearly keeps no money in his business, and spends it on cars he can't afford.
If he has stock, he has assets he can sell. A Showroom full of other people's cars however.....This t
t clearly keeps no money in his business, and spends it on cars he can't afford.AdeTuono said:
And maybe you are making an assumption that he puts a warranty on every car. Wouldn't be surprised if he's purchased no more than one of those rac warranties! eliot said:
And maybe you are making an assumption that he puts a warranty on every car. Wouldn't be surprised if he's purchased no more than one of those rac warranties!
I actually purchased a car from the guy, it came with a warranty, he informed me that he no longer used RAC as they were too much trouble. When I read the small print, the warranty he gave me didn't seem to cover performance cars, specifically for me, it covered Mercedes but not AMG models... It did say in the small print "unless specifically agreed". I can only presume that it wasn't specifically agreed after watching this, though I may well be wrong.eliot said:
AdeTuono said:
And maybe you are making an assumption that he puts a warranty on every car. Wouldn't be surprised if he's purchased no more than one of those rac warranties! Im glad they got caught. My brother put his car into them to sell and it took months to get his £11k from them. What was worse is we live around the corner from the family in Cardiff and every day we seen the son driving past in his 911 at the time. The dad is a con man through and through every time we went to the showroom the dad had done a runner leaving the son to face the music.
He makes good money he owns the unit and rebuilt it a few years back. Owns the unit out the back to.
He makes good money he owns the unit and rebuilt it a few years back. Owns the unit out the back to.
We were "burned" by this guy back in 2011 via exactly the same type of transaction as the gentleman on the Watchdog piece.
I think in retrospect, those of you suggesting SOR type transactions should be avoided at all costs have a point. However, the reason our RRS wound up on his forecourt is that I'd previously sold a B7 RS4 through Cardiff Audi in a SOR type transaction that was without hitch and certainly favourable compared to the potential pitfalls associated with a private sale. So my experience up to that point of SOR was good.
However, this guy took our RRS on SOR, then part-exed it for a 997 (without our knowledge or consent), and never sent us any money.
When the Police got involved, they cautioned me against attempting to re-possess the car using a key I had kept back saying I had a civil issue on my hands. The car was clearly still mine (although I had no idea where it was. Nevertheless, unlike Chelsea, there weren't a huge number of black RRS's around in Cardiff so it was only a matter of time before it showed up...and in fact, during the period where we had still not been paid for the car, I saw it driving down Newport Road!)
After scratching our heads for a while, we got Trading Standards involved, and almost overnight we had our money. They were brilliant and certainly sat up and took notice when we told them we were talking about £XX,000 worth of vehicle.
The guy is clearly living off other peoples money, and as mentioned previously in the thread, this type of transaction allows him to do so with minimum financial exposure to both himself and his business.
I'd love to know whether he is categorically doing anything illegal though?
Lastly, a quick call to Trading Standards reference a company you're looking to deal with, may prove fortuitous....
I think in retrospect, those of you suggesting SOR type transactions should be avoided at all costs have a point. However, the reason our RRS wound up on his forecourt is that I'd previously sold a B7 RS4 through Cardiff Audi in a SOR type transaction that was without hitch and certainly favourable compared to the potential pitfalls associated with a private sale. So my experience up to that point of SOR was good.
However, this guy took our RRS on SOR, then part-exed it for a 997 (without our knowledge or consent), and never sent us any money.
When the Police got involved, they cautioned me against attempting to re-possess the car using a key I had kept back saying I had a civil issue on my hands. The car was clearly still mine (although I had no idea where it was. Nevertheless, unlike Chelsea, there weren't a huge number of black RRS's around in Cardiff so it was only a matter of time before it showed up...and in fact, during the period where we had still not been paid for the car, I saw it driving down Newport Road!)
After scratching our heads for a while, we got Trading Standards involved, and almost overnight we had our money. They were brilliant and certainly sat up and took notice when we told them we were talking about £XX,000 worth of vehicle.
The guy is clearly living off other peoples money, and as mentioned previously in the thread, this type of transaction allows him to do so with minimum financial exposure to both himself and his business.
I'd love to know whether he is categorically doing anything illegal though?
Lastly, a quick call to Trading Standards reference a company you're looking to deal with, may prove fortuitous....
Met the guys once after he kept phoning me regarding the Tuscan I had for sale on PH. He was adamant that he had people interested etc etc and as he wasnt that far from us we decided to pop round for a chap. Seemed pleasant enough but both my wife and I felt a little uneasy about the whole thing. My instant question was "if people are interested why don't they just contact me".
Didn't go through with it in the end and sold it privately with no hassle.
Didn't go through with it in the end and sold it privately with no hassle.
Waste of space showed me a clean hpi check and took a deposit for a car. Next day i was warned by work mates that he was a scam dealer. Did my own hpi check, outstanding finance and mileage had been messed with. Refused to refund, currently in the process of trying to get it back. Trading standards are involved too
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