Golf GTI laid bare
VW dynamics man Karsten Schebsdat on GTI Clubsport, rivals and potential for a proper track-focused Golf
So, why isn't the GTI Clubsport the stripped out track car we thought it might be, how does it compare with the all-conquering R and exactly how does that fangled and much misunderstood VAQ front axle actually work? Over to Karsten...
PH: Is the VAQ system, as many people think, a Haldex four-wheel drive front axle with the rear drive assembly blanked off?
Karsten: "Definitely not; it is a unique component because you're connecting the left and the right wheel, not the front and the back."
From Ford to VW to Porsche back to VW
"It's another system, let's say it this way. The big advantage is you can implement a type of torque vectoring and introduce some yaw motions into the car."
Which, presumably, you can't do in the R with its less sophisticated, brake-based XDS+ 'electronic diff'?
"You can do it with the XDS+ system and you can do it in a certain way with the transfer of the traction forces to the rear. But it is not a classic case of torque vectoring; torque vectoring means you have different forces on the left and the right hand side of the car."
So VAQ gives you true torque vectoring ability?
"I think the definition is a little bit different but if you have different drive forces on the inner and outer wheel then it is, in a certain way, a function that significantly alters the yaw motion of the car."
Given VAQ takes information from steering angle, throttle input, dampers and all manner of other sensors have you tuned it differently for the GTI Clubsport?
"Generally the software status is exactly the same. But there is a lot of interaction of the chassis set-up and the behaviour of the tyres with VAQ, so it feels different; the car feels more neutral.
R is heavier and less sophisticated in chassis tech
"To be honest we did not compare them 100 per cent on the same track; we know for instance on the Nordschleife the GTI Performance will lap at around 8min 26sec and the R is about 8min 14sec. We will test the Clubsport there and we think it is at least as quick as the R."
Are you going to go chasing records like your colleagues at SEAT?
"Let's wait and see!"
The Brembo brake option on the SEAT is critical to its circuit ability; why is it not on the GTI Clubsport, given this is supposedly the most track focused Golf we've ever seen?
"We discussed this. And we decided when you look at the customer who is driving this car it is not often on the racetrack."
Should be as quick as the R on the Norschleife
"I think you can use it as you have today [at Portimao], you can do some very very hot laps and I think if you look at the lap times you would be surprised, even with those brakes. Yes you can be even better with different brakes but we think that is enough right now for that car."
What difference do the lightweight 18-inch wheels make?
"With the base tyre and with the lighter wheel it's definitely more comfortable and you can feel it a little bit in the steering because the rotating mass is reduced as well. The personality of the car with the Bridgestone 18-inch tyre is very similar but it's another level of performance with the Cup tyre with respect to lateral acceleration and steering angle."
What kind of difference would this make on a lap of the 'ring?
"About five seconds."
Less understeer than standard GTI Performance
"My personal choice? I'm a fan of manual gearboxes and I would like just two doors and as light as possible."
So would you have the 18-inch wheel?
"That depends where I would like to use the car for; just for the roads every day 18-inch is fine. But I am a big fan too of the Cup tyres. So maybe at least I would take the Cup tyres, but this is my personal taste. I would like to have the active dampers too."
You don't agree that passive dampers are the more purist option?
"I would have said this 10 years ago when we started with adaptive dampers. But now there are so many advantages; there's a lot of interaction with steering and VAQ but on the other hand passive dampers are very nice as well. Even on British roads the standard set-up will work very nicely because we did a lot of work on the balance between rebound and compression cycles, especially on very uneven roads."
Cupra still has the edge in track hardware
"It's very difficult to say but it's very similar to the Normal setting. To explain it further, we have a big spread with the adaptive damper so we can be softer than the normal configuration, much softer, on the one hand. But on the other, when you drive in the Comfort mode, it can in some situations be stiffer than the standard set-up. It's always depending on the status of the car because we can very quickly increase the amount of damping."
How does it actually work?
"It's a hydraulic system with a bypass valve we can open and close very quickly."
Is the spring rate the same?
"It's a little bit higher with the adaptive dampers."
Type R has a rather more extrovert aero package
"Compared to the base GTI? Definitely. We have changed the roll stiffness distribution so we have more neutrality. We have softened the front bump stops and increased the spring rate on the rear to give the car more mechanical grip on the front end so we have less understeer."
How important is the multi-link rear axle compared with the twist beams used by most rivals?
"I think it's a big advantage, especially when you compare the range you can implement into the car. With respect to lateral dynamics with a twist beam you have only two bushes that connect the axle to the body and you have a lot of functions to implement into those bushes. Right now with multi-link you have separation of the lateral control to the longitudinal control so the spread is much, much bigger and the stability level is a little bit higher generally. We have reached a very high level with the twist beam on our other cars but we would not do the multi-link if it was not better! There is more lateral stiffness and you can reduce the slip angle on the tyres - in the comfort mode it's even better because you are softer in a longitudinal direction."
Multi-link rear an advantage over twist-beam rivals
"I think when you drive the Clubsport versus the normal one you will feel the difference above 70mph. The quicker you are the more difference you feel!"
Can you tell us how much downforce there is?
"I know those figures but to be honest we have made lots of comparison tests in different wind tunnels and the wind tunnel at Wolfsburg works differently from other ones, so you get different figures."
The Civic Type R makes a big selling point of its aero and it looks a lot wilder...
"Much wilder, yes. We have not measured that car, I've driven it but do not have comparison figures, not even relative. I'm sure it has downforce though."
Have you had demand from enthusiasts for a genuinely stripped out car?
"I think there are some guys who are looking for that, if we would get the task to do it we would like to."
Is there potential for VW to take some of that business that might otherwise go to the aftermarket?
"Maybe, we wait and see. I cannot look too close to the future."
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It's a niche to fill a space you have to think. This is a niche not only in space but in time, with the 10 second niche now introduced.
Niche, sorry, nice seats though.
Expecting the 18 inch wheel cup tyred version with 15 second boost to be called the GTIiS
"We discussed this. And we decided when you look at the customer who is driving this car it is not often on the racetrack."
"We discussed this. And we decided when you look at the customer who is driving this car it is not often on the racetrack."
"We discussed this. And we decided when you look at the customer who is driving this car it is not often on the racetrack."
"We discussed this. And we decided when you look at the customer who is driving this car it is not often on the racetrack."
So if I summarise the contradictions:
- They don't think their customers track their cars much yet they call it Clubsport.
- They offer smaller/lighter/better wheels but not the Cup tyres on them.
- Its brakes will be great for a couple of hot laps but presumably it will cook its pads beyond that compared to the Brembos on the Cupra.
- It has down force but mainly usable on the motorway.
- It has harness compatible buckets but no harness.
It sounds like a great project probably spoilt by marketing pressures who wanted just about enough bragging rights yet still cocoon your average VW driver.
(BTW, when it comes to active drive dynamics, what actually matters is the ability to overspeed an wheel or wheels. A system that just apportions torque, but cannot overspeed can maximise traction, but cannot ever directly control yaw. i.e. the reason you can drift a rwd car is because the you can overspeed the rear wheels, and so increase their slip value compared to the front wheels. The more the tyres are slipping, the less capability they have to provide lateral loads, and so the ar*e of your car can be waved all over the shop in a pleasing manner ;-)
Amazing, you clicked on a story about Golf GTIs and it turned out to be about Volkswagens! Who'd have thunk. Seriously though, yes, we have a bit of a run of VW stories in the last 24 hours but I'd like to think 1) we were among just five UK media outlets to get invited on this launch event so we're inclined to make a fuss about that 2) if a Golf GTI claims itself a true 'Clubsport' PH should examine that boast and see if it stacks up or not and 3) in doing that I think we've presented some uncomfortable truths about the marketing versus the reality and also that a supposed junior product (GTI) is now potentially faster, lighter and more fun than the senior R one that's been a huge talking point on PH since it first came out. But also embarrassed in its claims by a cheaper product from within the same group.
Today, yes, we have a bit of a run of VW content because it's newsworthy and we've got more in-depth coverage than anyone else on an interesting car aimed squarely at folk like us. Next week we'll be on to something else. In the meantime I'd like to think if you're not a fan the VW stories are easily avoided!
Shall I get off my soapbox now?
Dan
Amazing, you clicked on a story about Golf GTIs and it turned out to be about Volkswagens! Who'd have thunk. Seriously though, yes, we have a bit of a run of VW stories in the last 24 hours but I'd like to think 1) we were among just five UK media outlets to get invited on this launch event so we're inclined to make a fuss about that 2) if a Golf GTI claims itself a true 'Clubsport' PH should examine that boast and see if it stacks up or not and 3) in doing that I think we've presented some uncomfortable truths about the marketing versus the reality and also that a supposed junior product (GTI) is now potentially faster, lighter and more fun than the senior R one that's been a huge talking point on PH since it first came out. But also embarrassed in its claims by a cheaper product from within the same group.
Today, yes, we have a bit of a run of VW content because it's newsworthy and we've got more in-depth coverage than anyone else on an interesting car aimed squarely at folk like us. Next week we'll be on to something else. In the meantime I'd like to think if you're not a fan the VW stories are easily avoided!
Shall I get off my soapbox now?
Dan
I would expect VW content on a clickable VW headline and I'm not against this story (why would I be?). I made a general (sarcastic) comment about the volume of VAG content (3 VW, 2 Bentley, 1 Seat and 1 Porsche) on the home page, making up almost half the available slots. They're a big company, I'm sure their PR dept is extremely active at the moment so its no surprise. I was just sayin...
He's obviously a gifted engineer but operating very much from within a VAG straightjacket.
Still think they're missing a trick not offering the 18 lightweight wheel with the sticky tyre option.
They offer smaller/lighter/better wheels but not the Cup tyres on them. Because no one will pay for a smaller lighter wheel that is likely faster with the same tyre. Because it is not the biggest available and charging £1000 for that privilege is good business.
I can see what the marketeers have done here. Lets get a Golf GTI performance pack, add some touches and tweaks to make it different enough, but not measurably better in any respect to the "R". Charge a little more and call it Club Sport as an anniversary special.
What a wasted opportunity. An anniversary is an ideal opportunity to sell a non-mainstream model in such limited numbers that the profit in the model and the effect it will be allowed on the normal range will me minimal.
They could have done a stripped out track focussed 3dr only car with the "R" engine or more, VAQ diff, 19" lightweight alloys if need be and sticky tyres, Brembo brakes and a 'ring lap time that bests all VAG MQB models. Sell a 1040 cars at a premium as an anniversary model and reap the halo effect.
I'm sure it is a nice car but if Chris Harris was bothered about the "R" in Cayman R then he's going to have an aneurism when he sees this car with the "Clubsport" moniker.
And "downforce" in a Golf. come on please.
He talks of owners typically not taking this car on track then states that they'll offer track focussed tyres and forged light weight wheels that cant't be shod with these tyres. Of course you won't be wanting Brembo brakes ideally suited to track driving that you won't most likely do to go with Michelin Cup2 tyres which you will have specified as you most likely not be going on track.
Oh, and you'll need the seats that have harness cut-outs for your not 4 point harness that you didn't specify and won't fit as you won't be going on track with your track focussed tyres that you did buy to fit your heavier wheels because they're cool.
I really hoped that this would have been 'it'. Sadly just trim dress up and one or two pretentious bits of frippery (sorry, good marketing and they'll be desirable add-on's).
I have a feeling that the Focus RS will rule the roost for drivers cars when it gets to retail,especially for £30k.
Customers loyal to the brand will buy this blindly in the face of far more competent machinery.
It will make VW money for sure but it's not the car they think it is.
Aside from this I don't think anyone can accuse Daniel of going soft on the guy (the interview, not his alleged sideline). That is one car crash of an interview, a mass of contradictions, statements that look awful in print and overall it looks like VW are out to flog cars to the sot of people who don't really understand them. I feel for the guy but he obviously is balancing strong inner urges to tel it like it is v tow the party line.
So: 1/2 a haldex, phat seats, and tyres you can't have on the best wheels. Ok let's wait until more have driven it and maybe thins will ad up but anyone looking for anything remotely aligned with a clubsport moniker will be heading to a Ford dealer.
.Regarding the GTI with the nice seats: IMVHO they should change things a bit. Marketing in the way of progress?
If I was in charge (yeah I know) I'd drop the "R" label. Think it is diluting the GTI badge which has more value in my opinion. Keep making AWD "R" models, but name them GTI+R (for Rallye) or something. So that one escapes the dilemma of this artificial internal pecking order.
For the anniversary models, highlight what the GTI does best, i.e. blend performance and practicality. So a limited edition anny would get more power than standard, plus some otherwise unavailable fancy toys -- e.g. from the very top of their exec barges, plus a bit of styling. Don't pretend this is a track focused car. Track focus and mainline VW doesn't fit.
So either keep SEAT to cater to that market (and let them have a real go at it). Or if the VW boys want a shot, buy out an established tuner an let them supply factory backed mods and calibrations that make the cars fun, but also a bit niche/dangerous/unsuitable to mainline VW's sensible pants image.
The Berg Cup and VW Cup racing has had a huge knock on effect for the tuning industry and serious track enthusiasts. Even by today's standards a well sorted MK2 GTI 16v tuned to 200bhp weighing in at 1000 kilos diff and sticky rubber punches well above its weight on circuit. The chassis are sublime! As with most new products and they can always be improved upon for track..... Trouble is .VW have never taken the opportunity for a hardcore track focused GTI.
Even so this Clubsport can be tracked and I'm sure that a few may tweak it here and there.
I find that the new 7R is too compromised in some areas for circuit use compared to a FWD wi h mechanical diff and some more camber but as an everyday road car it's a proper B road blast
I've been looking at the 7R as a 500 bhp manual track car build using the best and latest par s available but also making some compromises for family duties.......there's a lot in the pipeline from APR and Revo , MTM
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