Traction control - the good and the bad.

Traction control - the good and the bad.

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Discussion

Hafod

Original Poster:

46 posts

103 months

Friday 27th November 2015
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Does any OEM car manufacturer provide good traction control? I ask because I've never found it any good. In my 500bhp Audi S4 track car, it cuts power so drastically it really bogs the car down - I only ever use it when warming slicks up or if I'm on a narrow mountain roads with zero margin for error. In my 184bhp Octavia VRS, it seems to drastically miss the mark, allowing too much slip then cutting back way too abruptly. Surely some manufacturers have cracked it by now?

loose cannon

6,029 posts

240 months

Friday 27th November 2015
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My Megane has the least intrusive traction control of any car I have driven with traction control
Unlike my e46 which flashes away at the nearest hint of damp wet manhole cover etc

Kawasicki

13,041 posts

234 months

Friday 27th November 2015
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Hafod said:
Does any OEM car manufacturer provide good traction control? I ask because I've never found it any good. In my 500bhp Audi S4 track car, it cuts power so drastically it really bogs the car down - I only ever use it when warming slicks up or if I'm on a narrow mountain roads with zero margin for error. In my 184bhp Octavia VRS, it seems to drastically miss the mark, allowing too much slip then cutting back way too abruptly. Surely some manufacturers have cracked it by now?
Yes, it has been cracked, but it will usually be optimised to operate well on a range of surfaces and with a range of tyres.

Audi didn't build a 500bhp S4, so the effect of the traction control interventions will not be as they intended.

Fastdruid

8,623 posts

151 months

Friday 27th November 2015
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Traction control or the whole stability management package?

Mazda IMO got it pretty spot on with the RX-8, would let you "play" and get the back end out about a foot or so but would rein you in if you went further.

I don't turn it off on the Mondeo, with it off it's very noticeable it's a powerful FWD car, too much throttle mid corner will see it massively understeering but with it on it's a totally different beast.

OTOH on the MPS when the TCS kicks in it loses boost massively and then there is a distinct lag before it builds again.

mwstewart

7,554 posts

187 months

Friday 27th November 2015
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BMW M and Ferrari.

kambites

67,461 posts

220 months

Friday 27th November 2015
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I haven't tried it, but reviews imply that the system in the Exige V6 is very good.

As others have said, traction control will be set up for the OEM engine performance. If you've significant increased power and/or torque it's probably not going to work entirely as the manufacturer intended.

R8Steve

4,150 posts

174 months

Friday 27th November 2015
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loose cannon said:
My Megane has the least intrusive traction control of any car I have driven with traction control
Unlike my e46 which flashes away at the nearest hint of damp wet manhole cover etc
E46's are bad, the E46 M3 i had would cut the power for a couple of seconds until it regained it's composure. The E39 M5 i had on the other hand was really good allowing for a bit of slip before softly cutting the power.

fossilfuelled

293 posts

106 months

Friday 27th November 2015
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Ferrari side slip. Amazeballs.
Find Porsche PSM to be pretty good too. Never feel held back, and lets you play nicely.

Fastdruid

8,623 posts

151 months

Friday 27th November 2015
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R8Steve said:
loose cannon said:
My Megane has the least intrusive traction control of any car I have driven with traction control
Unlike my e46 which flashes away at the nearest hint of damp wet manhole cover etc
E46's are bad, the E46 M3 i had would cut the power for a couple of seconds until it regained it's composure. The E39 M5 i had on the other hand was really good allowing for a bit of slip before softly cutting the power.
The E46 had different makes of DSC depending on year, IIRC the early ones were Continental Teves while the later ones were Bosch.

RobM77

35,349 posts

233 months

Friday 27th November 2015
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Fastdruid said:
Mazda IMO got it pretty spot on with the RX-8, would let you "play" and get the back end out about a foot or so but would rein you in if you went further.
The standard BMW E90 stability control system allows this, so much so that even if it's raining and I'm slithering around as usual I don't generally bother to switch it off. I'm not sure it's intentional, it's just that the computer is a bit sleepy - the reason I say this is that the amount you can get out of shape seems to be based on time and slip angle rather than just slip angle alone. The E46 system that preceeded it was more annoying - there would be a similar delay before it cut in, but it would operate more harshly and then give you a dead throttle pedal for several seconds afterwards. The E36 before that just had TC with no SC at all.

To answer the OP, as others have said, if you're using the standard Audi system then it won't be designed for the power, tyres and suspension that your car is running. User configurable aftermarket TC systems are available though for the few categories of motorsport that allow electronic aids, although from what you (the OP) say it sounds like it might not be worth investing the money and time into such a system.

Hafod

Original Poster:

46 posts

103 months

Friday 27th November 2015
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Good point on the tuning throwing the old Audis system into conservative mode. I suppose powerful RWD cars from BMW would be lethal (to the lead-footed masses) with abrupt power cuts so they had to crack it. :-)

Al U

2,311 posts

130 months

Friday 27th November 2015
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Fastdruid said:
Traction control or the whole stability management package?

Mazda IMO got it pretty spot on with the RX-8, would let you "play" and get the back end out about a foot or so but would rein you in if you went further.

I don't turn it off on the Mondeo, with it off it's very noticeable it's a powerful FWD car, too much throttle mid corner will see it massively understeering but with it on it's a totally different beast.

OTOH on the MPS when the TCS kicks in it loses boost massively and then there is a distinct lag before it builds again.
whistle

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ImdW8vw3NpA

Hafod

Original Poster:

46 posts

103 months

Friday 27th November 2015
quotequote all
Good point on the Mazda TC. You reminded me of a track day recently where a friend followed in and RX8 left the TC on - and it was allowing to loveliest little bit of slip through most of the lap.

Reference the idea of adding a Bosh motorsport or Race logic system to a track day car, I know it would be faster, but surely nowhere near as much fun. Deep down who doesn't love traveling backwards at 100mph through the gravel towards a marshal post

MrBarry123

6,025 posts

120 months

Friday 27th November 2015
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I've never tracked my car so can't comment on what it's like when driving really hard however, in the dry, the system VW use isn't particularly bad, especially with a decent set of tyres fitted.

In the wet it's not so great - any sign of a front wheel slipping and it shuts the car down; meaning you have to be very progressive with the throttle.

Impasse

15,099 posts

240 months

Friday 27th November 2015
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The system fitted by Lotus seems to win plaudits along the lines of it being witchcraft.

Fastdruid

8,623 posts

151 months

Friday 27th November 2015
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Al U said:
Er yes. There is only so much DSC can do, it can't rewrite the rules of physics, if you have no grip you have no grip!

jamieduff1981

8,022 posts

139 months

Friday 27th November 2015
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I'll never track it, but the electronics only appear to control an orange light on the dashboard in my V8 Jag. In full granny mode you can get massive wheel spin and the sorts of yaw that will have you wrapped around a tree trunk if you don't sort it out yourself.

It has 3 modes, On, Trac and Off, all of which appear to do the same thing (i.e. nothing)

RobM77

35,349 posts

233 months

Friday 27th November 2015
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Impasse said:
The system fitted by Lotus seems to win plaudits along the lines of it being witchcraft.
The two I've used have been the TC on my 2-Eleven and on the new Exige V6. My 2-Eleven's system could either be off entirely, or at one of a number of levels, adjustable with a rotating dial. It's purely TC and didn't inhibit normal weight transfer car control in and around optimal slip angles, although I tend to drive in a very neat style so I never really troubled it in my usual track day lappery, and sadly I sold the car before I had the chance to specifically spend time playing with the TC in the rain. The Exige V6 I've only driven on the road, so didn't mess with the TC too much (other than to report that it works!), but apparently in race mode it learns the surface you're driving on and adjusts its target optimum slip thresholds dependant on that - very clever! I'm not sure if it's just a TC system or whether it has DSC elements to it as well.

Dodsy

7,172 posts

226 months

Friday 27th November 2015
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jamieduff1981 said:
I'll never track it, but the electronics only appear to control an orange light on the dashboard in my V8 Jag. In full granny mode you can get massive wheel spin and the sorts of yaw that will have you wrapped around a tree trunk if you don't sort it out yourself.

It has 3 modes, On, Trac and Off, all of which appear to do the same thing (i.e. nothing)
Pretty much the opposite in my X350 XJR . Boot it wet or dry the rears start to slip and it hits the rear brakes and cuts power. Any spirited pulling out of junctions leaves you crawling out /on to roundabouts so it does require some careful throttle control to avoid being T Boned when the car just wont go.

Shame its all or nothing, there must be a middle ground where it cuts the power a bit but still allows some progress.

In the XJR its either on or off. In off mode it just creates smoke and the back end snaps out given the slightest provocation.

Mind you, once its on the move its a beast !


Hafod

Original Poster:

46 posts

103 months

Friday 27th November 2015
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I once nearly got stuck in a wet farmers field in an automatic Porsche 944. I just about made it out 100 meters at less than walking pace, the speedo reading over 140mph the whole way. You wont see a muddier car ever,even on that Landrover challenge where they drive through the swaps of Congo.