What takes the bends better, an Elise or a classic Mini?
Discussion
I've owned a couple of Elise's and in my opinion, there's very little that can match the driving experience, especially when it comes to taking the bendy bits quickly. I have however always had an interest in modified mini's but never driven one, but hear they stick to the road like the proverbial to a blanket.
Is this really true or is it simply a case of looking through rose tinted specs from mini owners?
Is this really true or is it simply a case of looking through rose tinted specs from mini owners?
My old Rover Mini was a proper little gokart- seemingly able to go round any bend with my foot welded to the floor. It wasn't anything special, just a Mayfair on minilites but great fun to fling around. My Elise is also pretty handy round the bends but with getting on for four times the power (189bhp vs 53bhp) it's a very different experience. Both are fun- the Mini was all about preservation of momentum whilst the Elise is more about tactility and finesse. I'd happily have both.
I'll start by saying I've not driven an Elise, but have driven a VX220 so will base my comparison off that. Had a classic mini for 5 years or so.
A mini does not stick to the road very well, I wouldn't even say it handles brilliantly. What it is, is incredibly engaging, very responsive, and really fun, with bumpy, predictable and exploitable handling. The "go kart" reputation it has is well deserved, even if just for the awkward steering wheel angle that it shares with a gokart.
I would bet a fiver that a modern Corsa, heck probably even a Celerio, will out-handle a mini around a track, purely because suspension design has come on leaps and bounds.
A VX220/Elise shares some similar traits with the mini, in that it is arguably just as loud, awkward and uncomfortable inside, and similarly well balanced and responsive, along with being jittery over rough roads.
However, in my experience and own opinion, it's a very different sensation to a mini. Whereas a mini is more akin to a go-kart, the VX220 was more similar to a Caterham. It's faster, so the speeds at which you "have fun" tend to be higher and it has a lot more grip than a mini. Maybe it comes down to: Do you want to feel like a racing driver (elise) or a rally driver (mini) every time you drive the car?
An elise in "average PH" hands will be faster round the twisties than a mini, no contest. Would it be more fun? Depends on what you're after. Hard to evaluate online, try a drive in each, and see which gives you more satisfaction.
A mini does not stick to the road very well, I wouldn't even say it handles brilliantly. What it is, is incredibly engaging, very responsive, and really fun, with bumpy, predictable and exploitable handling. The "go kart" reputation it has is well deserved, even if just for the awkward steering wheel angle that it shares with a gokart.
I would bet a fiver that a modern Corsa, heck probably even a Celerio, will out-handle a mini around a track, purely because suspension design has come on leaps and bounds.
A VX220/Elise shares some similar traits with the mini, in that it is arguably just as loud, awkward and uncomfortable inside, and similarly well balanced and responsive, along with being jittery over rough roads.
However, in my experience and own opinion, it's a very different sensation to a mini. Whereas a mini is more akin to a go-kart, the VX220 was more similar to a Caterham. It's faster, so the speeds at which you "have fun" tend to be higher and it has a lot more grip than a mini. Maybe it comes down to: Do you want to feel like a racing driver (elise) or a rally driver (mini) every time you drive the car?
An elise in "average PH" hands will be faster round the twisties than a mini, no contest. Would it be more fun? Depends on what you're after. Hard to evaluate online, try a drive in each, and see which gives you more satisfaction.
Both cars have a low centre of gravity, which will greatly benefit cornering. Both are also short wheelbase and light weight, which will give excellent agility. Both cars also have minimal overhangs from their major masses (i.e. 'wheel at each corner'). Neither car has ideal weight distribution, the MINI having everything heavy up front and the Elise having everything slung out of the back, so if a corner is taken with a 'flat' balance then neither car will be inherently balanced, but both tendencies can be driven around, although both require commitment on corner entry, moreso in the Mini, which doesn't lend itself well to road driving.
The biggest differences will be in terms of suspension: the Elise's fully independent spring and damper setup is inherently superior to the Mini's suspension, fitted to a stiffer chassis, is better tuned (Lotus>Austin!) and is tuned specifically for a sports car, so this will give the Elise much better cornering. Wider and larger tyres on the Elise will also give more grip.
So in summary, the Mini is bloody good for a four seater ordinary car, but is no match for a modern purpose built sports car.
The biggest differences will be in terms of suspension: the Elise's fully independent spring and damper setup is inherently superior to the Mini's suspension, fitted to a stiffer chassis, is better tuned (Lotus>Austin!) and is tuned specifically for a sports car, so this will give the Elise much better cornering. Wider and larger tyres on the Elise will also give more grip.
So in summary, the Mini is bloody good for a four seater ordinary car, but is no match for a modern purpose built sports car.
SuperPav said:
A mini does not stick to the road very well, I wouldn't even say it handles brilliantly. What it is, is incredibly engaging, very responsive, and really fun, with bumpy, predictable and exploitable handling. The "go kart" reputation it has is well deserved, even if just for the awkward steering wheel angle that it shares with a gokart.
I would bet a fiver that a modern Corsa, heck probably even a Celerio, will out-handle a mini around a track, purely because suspension design has come on leaps and bounds.
I've got a standard Mini 998, on standard 12" rims and tyres, and I reckon your fiver's safe. A modern car, with decent tyres and suspension, can leave me behind.I would bet a fiver that a modern Corsa, heck probably even a Celerio, will out-handle a mini around a track, purely because suspension design has come on leaps and bounds.
However, most people drive so slowly that this doesn't usually happen.
Whether big wheels and and tyres on the Mini make much difference, I don't know.
N Dentressangle said:
Whether big wheels and and tyres on the Mini make much difference, I don't know.
The huge wheels and tyres fitted by Rover in the final years are said to increase grip massively but eliminate all feel. I swapped the standard steel wheels for a set of minilites on mine and it made the car more pointy and grippy without, in my view, destroying the handling. There was so much extra grip that for the first few weeks I almost parked it on the roundabout at the end of my road every time I went round it!You’re right about point to point speed though- a well ridden bicycle could probably show it a clean pair of heels…
RowntreesCabana said:
That's that done and dusted then!
I always thought that the weight and lower centre of gravity would've made it handle well, so its a bit disappointing. Still fun to drive though I guess.
Oh they will make it handle well - weight and a low CofG are probably the things that contribute most to handling and cornering performance. Consider a Formula Ford, which with Fiesta power can outlap most supercars due to its low weight and low CofG. However, weight distribution, suspension design and chassis tuning are against the Mini, so if you get something like an Elise, which carries weight and CofG to its advantage and couples that with a super stiff aluminium chassis, fully independent suspension and superb chassis tuning, it'll be faster and handle better. However, you can easily answer with grip and power, and a slick shod Mini racer with a full race engine would outlap an Elise easily!! I always thought that the weight and lower centre of gravity would've made it handle well, so its a bit disappointing. Still fun to drive though I guess.
my rover mini cooper is still the car i regret selling the most. its not the fastest car, but the fun/cost is just amazing. I never once got in the mini and didnt enjoy driving.
as someone mentioned, they are nowhere near as fast as elise (or probably anything modern with a reasonable engine) but you can chuck them around and have loads of fun without doing silly speeds.
however bare in mind (if you're that way inclined) that they are not the best if you do stick it through a hedge! you are the crumple zone in one of them! and compared to modern stuff, they are absolutely tiny, so could feel more vulnerable on the road
as someone mentioned, they are nowhere near as fast as elise (or probably anything modern with a reasonable engine) but you can chuck them around and have loads of fun without doing silly speeds.
however bare in mind (if you're that way inclined) that they are not the best if you do stick it through a hedge! you are the crumple zone in one of them! and compared to modern stuff, they are absolutely tiny, so could feel more vulnerable on the road
An odd comparison!rovermorris999 said:
It's not easy to find fun, speed and handling in one car that you can use in the real world. Of the three I'd sacrifice some speed for more of the other two.
I never understand why people get hung up about what's fastest. While speed is obviously much easier to measure, fun is a much more important attribute (unless you're racing, but then again as an amateur if it's not fun why are you doing it?)SuperPav said:
I'll start by saying I've not driven an Elise, but have driven a VX220 so will base my comparison off that. Had a classic mini for 5 years or so.
A mini does not stick to the road very well, I wouldn't even say it handles brilliantly. What it is, is incredibly engaging, very responsive, and really fun, with bumpy, predictable and exploitable handling. The "go kart" reputation it has is well deserved, even if just for the awkward steering wheel angle that it shares with a gokart.
I would bet a fiver that a modern Corsa, heck probably even a Celerio, will out-handle a mini around a track, purely because suspension design has come on leaps and bounds.
A VX220/Elise shares some similar traits with the mini, in that it is arguably just as loud, awkward and uncomfortable inside, and similarly well balanced and responsive, along with being jittery over rough roads.
However, in my experience and own opinion, it's a very different sensation to a mini. Whereas a mini is more akin to a go-kart, the VX220 was more similar to a Caterham. It's faster, so the speeds at which you "have fun" tend to be higher and it has a lot more grip than a mini. Maybe it comes down to: Do you want to feel like a racing driver (elise) or a rally driver (mini) every time you drive the car?
An elise in "average PH" hands will be faster round the twisties than a mini, no contest. Would it be more fun? Depends on what you're after. Hard to evaluate online, try a drive in each, and see which gives you more satisfaction.
Disagree with the Elise being as uncomfortable as a Mini, it's nowhere near - you don't drive with your knees round your ears and a horizontal steering wheel, for starters. A mini does not stick to the road very well, I wouldn't even say it handles brilliantly. What it is, is incredibly engaging, very responsive, and really fun, with bumpy, predictable and exploitable handling. The "go kart" reputation it has is well deserved, even if just for the awkward steering wheel angle that it shares with a gokart.
I would bet a fiver that a modern Corsa, heck probably even a Celerio, will out-handle a mini around a track, purely because suspension design has come on leaps and bounds.
A VX220/Elise shares some similar traits with the mini, in that it is arguably just as loud, awkward and uncomfortable inside, and similarly well balanced and responsive, along with being jittery over rough roads.
However, in my experience and own opinion, it's a very different sensation to a mini. Whereas a mini is more akin to a go-kart, the VX220 was more similar to a Caterham. It's faster, so the speeds at which you "have fun" tend to be higher and it has a lot more grip than a mini. Maybe it comes down to: Do you want to feel like a racing driver (elise) or a rally driver (mini) every time you drive the car?
An elise in "average PH" hands will be faster round the twisties than a mini, no contest. Would it be more fun? Depends on what you're after. Hard to evaluate online, try a drive in each, and see which gives you more satisfaction.
Once you're in an Elise it's spot on. Noisy though.
I don't know about an Elise but I nearly got taken out by a massively understeering mkIV Golf on a round about in my mini the other day. I wasn't even going very fast, it's only a 998 and I'd not long joined the roundabout.
Of course that may have had to do with his driving style or tyres.
Of course that may have had to do with his driving style or tyres.
Is the mini chalk to the Lotus cheese?
I have to confess I have only ever passengered in Elises but have driven quite a few minis.
Were to start, technically the cars are miles apart the elise is wider and has a longer wheel base and yet weighs about the same as a mini.
So when it comes to the bends, a Lotus should be more stable braking into a bend (if the minis is still on front drums, much, much, much better, boy those were scary at times!), it should also have slightly more grip going around with its wider track and better traction out thanks to its mid engine layout.
Also mid corner bumps are a challenge in a mini, due to the short travel nature of the suspension.
Having said that with a mini being nearly a foot narrower, you really can take alternative lines that just aren't an option normally.
For its time mini suspension was pretty sophisticated. At the rear you had independent trailing arms and at the front proper twin wishbones with ball joints. Damping by conventional shock absorbers. The real down side was having rubber cones instead of springs.
I would personally take a mini over any modern hatchback (for a hoon) because they are fun and have terrific steering feel but an Elise is a different matter.
I have to confess I have only ever passengered in Elises but have driven quite a few minis.
Were to start, technically the cars are miles apart the elise is wider and has a longer wheel base and yet weighs about the same as a mini.
So when it comes to the bends, a Lotus should be more stable braking into a bend (if the minis is still on front drums, much, much, much better, boy those were scary at times!), it should also have slightly more grip going around with its wider track and better traction out thanks to its mid engine layout.
Also mid corner bumps are a challenge in a mini, due to the short travel nature of the suspension.
Having said that with a mini being nearly a foot narrower, you really can take alternative lines that just aren't an option normally.
For its time mini suspension was pretty sophisticated. At the rear you had independent trailing arms and at the front proper twin wishbones with ball joints. Damping by conventional shock absorbers. The real down side was having rubber cones instead of springs.
I would personally take a mini over any modern hatchback (for a hoon) because they are fun and have terrific steering feel but an Elise is a different matter.
A classic Mini, in it's time it was a fairly good handling car in comparison to so much else that was on the roads or the track. Don't get me wrong, I love Mini's more than most and have had many, many a grin tearing around back lanes thinking I was Paddy Hopkirk or Timo Makinen. But that was when 70 to 100 bhp was special in a small car although possibly not enough to get you in too much trouble (OK, I did get in a trouble), it was fairly manageable and the handling was 'forgiving'. When supercars had 250/300 bhp and double-wish bones were the ultimate suspension, a Mini was comparable as a fun 'go-kart' and the emphasis is and should always be on the fun part.
Take a look at Mini's running circles around Jaguars and Ford Falcons in the 60's and you can see this was a like ferret racing against a Badger. Comparing a Mini with a more modern Lotus is like comparing it to an F1 car of the period (the Elsie possibly has an even better set up) and it should be horses for courses, not retro viruses modern.
For a car designed to take a four member family and all their baggage, it turned out to be a pretty good performer in the bendy bits, but most of all it's about how big a smile it gives you, not what your are keeping up with.
Take a look at Mini's running circles around Jaguars and Ford Falcons in the 60's and you can see this was a like ferret racing against a Badger. Comparing a Mini with a more modern Lotus is like comparing it to an F1 car of the period (the Elsie possibly has an even better set up) and it should be horses for courses, not retro viruses modern.
For a car designed to take a four member family and all their baggage, it turned out to be a pretty good performer in the bendy bits, but most of all it's about how big a smile it gives you, not what your are keeping up with.
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