What takes the bends better, an Elise or a classic Mini?
Discussion
The thread wasn't really about which was faster around a track, just a comparison really about how a mini takes a bend compared to an Elise (of which I'm familiar with). I had, rather mistakenly by the look of things, been under the impression that a lightweight mini with the correct suspension and wheels could take the bendy bits at similar speeds to an Elise.
I agree with many comments made on this, the grin factor is the main thing these days. If you're chasing which is fastest or which is quickest, then its a never ending pursuit, and with each step up in performance, there's a fair argument to be had that you're losing out on the driveability.
I agree with many comments made on this, the grin factor is the main thing these days. If you're chasing which is fastest or which is quickest, then its a never ending pursuit, and with each step up in performance, there's a fair argument to be had that you're losing out on the driveability.
There is a small booklet originally with Addco Swaybars titled Handling - What It Is and How To Get It. It makes the point that handling is both ends responding the same and does not mean ultimate cornering speed. One example I recall was a front-heavy Citroen having a wider front track to compensate.
Always amused me in a mini that you'd get someone in a much larger, more powerful and capable car right up behind you on a straight bit of road. Reach a corner or a roundabout and they'd vanish to a speck in the mirror. Sounds stupid but I think whatever the car a lot of people just don't know how to drive round corners.
Derek Chevalier said:
Wouldn't the modern hot Corsa also beat a base Elise round a track?
I was reeled in an passed by the EVO VXR in my 111R a few years ago, but then I'm not exactly renowned for my skills on track!On the subject of comfort- I've driven my Elise from Heathrow to Glasgow in one hit and came out the other end still feeling reasonable. Northampton was the furthest I could manage in my Mini without spending the next week on my back...
james_gt3rs said:
Derek Chevalier said:
Wouldn't the modern hot Corsa also beat a base Elise round a track?
Depends on the track but probably. The light weight is of no help at 100+ down the Hangar straight!But the mini is still great fun!
Elise, hands down! I have recently has a standard 2006 R53 Cooper S and now have a 2001 S2 Elise 135.
The mini I found pretty gash and the power delivery not very linear which wasn't that great mid corner when power might spike, it was on cheap tyres so the grip comparison is not really fair as the Elise gets Yoko AD07 and 08 and is now on Toyo SnowProxy's.
The Elise is far more predictable and easier to handle near the edge! On a spirited run when I bought the mini I managed to set the pads on fire and lose the brake pedal, as I was braking excessively not trusting the car (s
te tyres probably didn't help that either) again I don't know what pads the PO had fitted but they weren't up for a good thrashing, Elise is on Mintex 1144..
I know this is a completely one sided unfair comparison but I never gelled with the mini and didn't want to spend the cash on brakes, suspension and tyres to make it track friendly as I'd have also wanted to fiddle with the power and its delivery. I did however love the noise it made with the charger whining and the pops and bangs on lift off! It wasn't a bad place to sit either with all mod cons and creature comforts unlike the Elise, which on days like this make me question my sanity!
The mini I found pretty gash and the power delivery not very linear which wasn't that great mid corner when power might spike, it was on cheap tyres so the grip comparison is not really fair as the Elise gets Yoko AD07 and 08 and is now on Toyo SnowProxy's.
The Elise is far more predictable and easier to handle near the edge! On a spirited run when I bought the mini I managed to set the pads on fire and lose the brake pedal, as I was braking excessively not trusting the car (s
te tyres probably didn't help that either) again I don't know what pads the PO had fitted but they weren't up for a good thrashing, Elise is on Mintex 1144.. I know this is a completely one sided unfair comparison but I never gelled with the mini and didn't want to spend the cash on brakes, suspension and tyres to make it track friendly as I'd have also wanted to fiddle with the power and its delivery. I did however love the noise it made with the charger whining and the pops and bangs on lift off! It wasn't a bad place to sit either with all mod cons and creature comforts unlike the Elise, which on days like this make me question my sanity!
Watch a well set up and driven Mini in historic racing and the cornering is astounding , as many Mustang and Galaxie drivers have found . And even 'modern ' Mini Miglia racers are very quick .But so much is the driving - owning a quick car like an Elise(or TVR /Monaro/whatever)doesn't mean it laps quickly by itself . One of the quickest cars I have seen on track was a rallycross Nova on slicks with a very quick driver on board- most other people on track got out to see why they'd stopped ...
I've owned both at the same time (Mini 35 / basic Elise S2) and have to agree that the Elise is objectively a lot faster. Subjectively though, you get a pretty similar sensation of speed and feedback/feeling. Due to the layout and speed involved, the Elise is a fun car that you really have to concentrate on, whereas the Mini is just fun, fun, fun.
I really wanted both of them back in my live if that wouldn't mean to let the Griff go.
I really wanted both of them back in my live if that wouldn't mean to let the Griff go.
Edited by 1000TCR on Tuesday 1st December 17:37
mwmackenzie said:
Elise, hands down! I have recently has a standard 2006 R53 Cooper S and now have a 2001 S2 Elise 135.
The mini I found pretty gash and the power delivery not very linear which wasn't that great mid corner when power might spike, it was on cheap tyres so the grip comparison is not really fair as the Elise gets Yoko AD07 and 08 and is now on Toyo SnowProxy's.
The Elise is far more predictable and easier to handle near the edge! On a spirited run when I bought the mini I managed to set the pads on fire and lose the brake pedal, as I was braking excessively not trusting the car (ste tyres probably didn't help that either) again I don't know what pads the PO had fitted but they weren't up for a good thrashing, Elise is on Mintex 1144..
I know this is a completely one sided unfair comparison but I never gelled with the mini and didn't want to spend the cash on brakes, suspension and tyres to make it track friendly as I'd have also wanted to fiddle with the power and its delivery. I did however love the noise it made with the charger whining and the pops and bangs on lift off! It wasn't a bad place to sit either with all mod cons and creature comforts unlike the Elise, which on days like this make me question my sanity!
We are talking classic Minis on this thread...The mini I found pretty gash and the power delivery not very linear which wasn't that great mid corner when power might spike, it was on cheap tyres so the grip comparison is not really fair as the Elise gets Yoko AD07 and 08 and is now on Toyo SnowProxy's.
The Elise is far more predictable and easier to handle near the edge! On a spirited run when I bought the mini I managed to set the pads on fire and lose the brake pedal, as I was braking excessively not trusting the car (s
te tyres probably didn't help that either) again I don't know what pads the PO had fitted but they weren't up for a good thrashing, Elise is on Mintex 1144.. I know this is a completely one sided unfair comparison but I never gelled with the mini and didn't want to spend the cash on brakes, suspension and tyres to make it track friendly as I'd have also wanted to fiddle with the power and its delivery. I did however love the noise it made with the charger whining and the pops and bangs on lift off! It wasn't a bad place to sit either with all mod cons and creature comforts unlike the Elise, which on days like this make me question my sanity!
mwmackenzie said:
Elise, hands down! I have recently has a standard 2006 R53 Cooper S and now have a 2001 S2 Elise 135.
But that is a very different car to the Mini being discussed here 
I haven't driven an Elise so can't compare but as many others have said a Mini is great fun and very chuckable and predictable (if it isn't there is a problem somewhere). How do you compare what takes bends better though? It depends on what, in that context, is meant by better. Tyres make such a difference but I know that of all the cars I have at home the Mini gives the biggest grin whilst driving on anything with bends.
mwmackenzie said:
Elise, hands down! I have recently has a standard 2006 R53 Cooper S and now have a 2001 S2 Elise 135.
The mini I found pretty gash and the power delivery not very linear which wasn't that great mid corner when power might spike, it was on cheap tyres so the grip comparison is not really fair as the Elise gets Yoko AD07 and 08 and is now on Toyo SnowProxy's.
The Elise is far more predictable and easier to handle near the edge! On a spirited run when I bought the mini I managed to set the pads on fire and lose the brake pedal, as I was braking excessively not trusting the car (ste tyres probably didn't help that either) again I don't know what pads the PO had fitted but they weren't up for a good thrashing, Elise is on Mintex 1144..
I know this is a completely one sided unfair comparison but I never gelled with the mini and didn't want to spend the cash on brakes, suspension and tyres to make it track friendly as I'd have also wanted to fiddle with the power and its delivery. I did however love the noise it made with the charger whining and the pops and bangs on lift off! It wasn't a bad place to sit either with all mod cons and creature comforts unlike the Elise, which on days like this make me question my sanity!
One thing the Elise is not, is easy to drive on the edge, once the back end goes its goodbye! The edge however, is a lot further away than almost anything else out there.The mini I found pretty gash and the power delivery not very linear which wasn't that great mid corner when power might spike, it was on cheap tyres so the grip comparison is not really fair as the Elise gets Yoko AD07 and 08 and is now on Toyo SnowProxy's.
The Elise is far more predictable and easier to handle near the edge! On a spirited run when I bought the mini I managed to set the pads on fire and lose the brake pedal, as I was braking excessively not trusting the car (s
te tyres probably didn't help that either) again I don't know what pads the PO had fitted but they weren't up for a good thrashing, Elise is on Mintex 1144.. I know this is a completely one sided unfair comparison but I never gelled with the mini and didn't want to spend the cash on brakes, suspension and tyres to make it track friendly as I'd have also wanted to fiddle with the power and its delivery. I did however love the noise it made with the charger whining and the pops and bangs on lift off! It wasn't a bad place to sit either with all mod cons and creature comforts unlike the Elise, which on days like this make me question my sanity!
We're also talking about a classic mini, not the BMW Mini which is a completely different prospect.
Edited by RowntreesCabana on Tuesday 1st December 18:45
RowntreesCabana said:
One thing the Elise is not, is easy to handle on the edge, once the back end goes its goodbye! The edge however, is a lot further away than almost anything else out there.
We're also talking about a classic mini, not the BMW Mini which is a completely different prospect.
We're also talking about a classic mini, not the BMW Mini which is a completely different prospect.
Hi everyone, first post here, but I think I might be able to shed some light on things. I've never driven an elise but I have owned a mini for 4 years, and have done a lot of work on the suspension so I can probably add something in that respect.
First off, a lot of people seem to be confusing handling with road holding. Handling is how the car responds to driver inputs, such as steering, braking and acceleration,think understeer, oversteer, weight transfers etc. Roadholding is more about the maximum speed the car can corner at before it begins to lose grip. These are two separate things and quite important when you're comparing such different cars. For example, a standard mini on 145 section tyres handles quite nicely, in that it has sharp steering and predictable responses to differing steering inputs but the overall cornering speed will be quite low. A diesel mk4 golf would not handle as nicely, and would not respond as well to steering inputs due to the chronic understeer (even by mini standards) and yet it would almost certainly corner at a higher speed, given that it were driven by a competent driver. So bringing this back to the question, which would handle better? Well it depends on what you are after really. The Elise will have better weight distribution, has much more neutral handling as opposed to the understeer you get in a mini cornering at speed, and due to the track being over 20cm wider, will ultimately be more stable. However, at the very edge of both cars capabilities, the minis tendency to understeer probably means its handling is more accessible to people who are not used to mid engined, rear wheel drive cars.
In terms of roadholding an standard Elise would annihilate a standard mini, no questions asked. We're comparing a purpose built sports car to a 1950's design which was rushed to market, had variable parts quality and was not in any way optimised for cornering quickly. If you look at a standard mini you will notice that they have positive camber, which is there for no other reason than BMC/Leyland/Rover couldn't be bothered to sort it. The suspension cones used were supposed to be a stop gap solution until the hydrogas system was ready, and though an improved version was developed, it wasn't fitted to any production mini with the exception of the innocenti. The suspension on a standard mini is about as far removed from the suspension on an Elise as is possible.
Saying that however, the oversights made on production minis do leave an awful lot of potential for modification. As people have mentioned, the narrow wheels can be replaced with wider ones, which significantly improves cornering. I found that with 165 section sports tyres, and 5 inch wheels I could corner 10mph faster than on the standard 145 section and 4.5 inch wheels. I imagine that a set of road legal semi slicks (like the faster Elises) would also yield significant improvements in roadholding. An increase to 13x6" wheels would probably improve on this even more, providing you could get a soft enough compound to work with the low weight of a mini. If the lightest 13" alloys were used, there probably wouldn't be much difference in handling compared to standard steel wheels either. An adjustable suspension kit is easily available and again improves handling and roadholding significantly. If you corner weighted the mini you would also improve things. In defence of the the rather unique suspension cone system, this would probably be worth retaining for two reasons. Firstly, it doesn't require any strut braces for extra rigidity, unlike your average wishbone suspension set up. The later, and most common shells are made of a thicker gauge steel than the early ones and have a different subframe mounting system which is more than stiff enough for the job (as an aside, the early shells had a builders foam like material injected into various cavities to prevent water ingress, which was found to make the shell circa 10% stiffer!). Secondly, the fully independent suspension features cones with a progressive spring rate, which means that the cornering is very flat after the initial turn in, despite the short suspension travel. Although coil springs are available for a mini, they are more for comfort than performance. On smooth tarmac, the cones are more than adequate, although potholes will expose deficiencies in the smaller wheels, short travel suspension and poor bump steer characteristics.
Ultimately, with an extensive list of modifications, the mini can be made to corner very well indeed. However, when you factor in the need for a more powerful engine, and better brakes to exploit your new found cornering speed, the question of why would you bother unless you specifically want a fast mini, is one you'd have to decide for yourself. It is possible to make a mini capable of similar cornering to an elise, but the time and money involved would probably make it an awful lot easier to just save up and buy the Elise and have the satisfaction of having a very competent and reliable road car, as opposed to a mini which isn't really original any more, and only usable on a track. Basically it all comes down to what you want, a fun classic, or a dedicated sports car. Sorry about the essay
First off, a lot of people seem to be confusing handling with road holding. Handling is how the car responds to driver inputs, such as steering, braking and acceleration,think understeer, oversteer, weight transfers etc. Roadholding is more about the maximum speed the car can corner at before it begins to lose grip. These are two separate things and quite important when you're comparing such different cars. For example, a standard mini on 145 section tyres handles quite nicely, in that it has sharp steering and predictable responses to differing steering inputs but the overall cornering speed will be quite low. A diesel mk4 golf would not handle as nicely, and would not respond as well to steering inputs due to the chronic understeer (even by mini standards) and yet it would almost certainly corner at a higher speed, given that it were driven by a competent driver. So bringing this back to the question, which would handle better? Well it depends on what you are after really. The Elise will have better weight distribution, has much more neutral handling as opposed to the understeer you get in a mini cornering at speed, and due to the track being over 20cm wider, will ultimately be more stable. However, at the very edge of both cars capabilities, the minis tendency to understeer probably means its handling is more accessible to people who are not used to mid engined, rear wheel drive cars.
In terms of roadholding an standard Elise would annihilate a standard mini, no questions asked. We're comparing a purpose built sports car to a 1950's design which was rushed to market, had variable parts quality and was not in any way optimised for cornering quickly. If you look at a standard mini you will notice that they have positive camber, which is there for no other reason than BMC/Leyland/Rover couldn't be bothered to sort it. The suspension cones used were supposed to be a stop gap solution until the hydrogas system was ready, and though an improved version was developed, it wasn't fitted to any production mini with the exception of the innocenti. The suspension on a standard mini is about as far removed from the suspension on an Elise as is possible.
Saying that however, the oversights made on production minis do leave an awful lot of potential for modification. As people have mentioned, the narrow wheels can be replaced with wider ones, which significantly improves cornering. I found that with 165 section sports tyres, and 5 inch wheels I could corner 10mph faster than on the standard 145 section and 4.5 inch wheels. I imagine that a set of road legal semi slicks (like the faster Elises) would also yield significant improvements in roadholding. An increase to 13x6" wheels would probably improve on this even more, providing you could get a soft enough compound to work with the low weight of a mini. If the lightest 13" alloys were used, there probably wouldn't be much difference in handling compared to standard steel wheels either. An adjustable suspension kit is easily available and again improves handling and roadholding significantly. If you corner weighted the mini you would also improve things. In defence of the the rather unique suspension cone system, this would probably be worth retaining for two reasons. Firstly, it doesn't require any strut braces for extra rigidity, unlike your average wishbone suspension set up. The later, and most common shells are made of a thicker gauge steel than the early ones and have a different subframe mounting system which is more than stiff enough for the job (as an aside, the early shells had a builders foam like material injected into various cavities to prevent water ingress, which was found to make the shell circa 10% stiffer!). Secondly, the fully independent suspension features cones with a progressive spring rate, which means that the cornering is very flat after the initial turn in, despite the short suspension travel. Although coil springs are available for a mini, they are more for comfort than performance. On smooth tarmac, the cones are more than adequate, although potholes will expose deficiencies in the smaller wheels, short travel suspension and poor bump steer characteristics.
Ultimately, with an extensive list of modifications, the mini can be made to corner very well indeed. However, when you factor in the need for a more powerful engine, and better brakes to exploit your new found cornering speed, the question of why would you bother unless you specifically want a fast mini, is one you'd have to decide for yourself. It is possible to make a mini capable of similar cornering to an elise, but the time and money involved would probably make it an awful lot easier to just save up and buy the Elise and have the satisfaction of having a very competent and reliable road car, as opposed to a mini which isn't really original any more, and only usable on a track. Basically it all comes down to what you want, a fun classic, or a dedicated sports car. Sorry about the essay
I think it's worth watching again. 
Watch the start, and then proceed to 7' 50 if you like...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZZ-gLgRDrw
Watch the start, and then proceed to 7' 50 if you like...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZZ-gLgRDrw
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