What takes the bends better, an Elise or a classic Mini?
Discussion
6joshh6 said:
Hi everyone, first post here, but I think I might be able to shed some light on things. I've never driven an elise but I have owned a mini for 4 years, and have done a lot of work on the suspension so I can probably add something in that respect.
First off, a lot of people seem to be confusing handling with road holding. Handling is how the car responds to driver inputs, such as steering, braking and acceleration,think understeer, oversteer, weight transfers etc. Roadholding is more about the maximum speed the car can corner at before it begins to lose grip. These are two separate things and quite important when you're comparing such different cars. For example, a standard mini on 145 section tyres handles quite nicely, in that it has sharp steering and predictable responses to differing steering inputs but the overall cornering speed will be quite low. A diesel mk4 golf would not handle as nicely, and would not respond as well to steering inputs due to the chronic understeer (even by mini standards) and yet it would almost certainly corner at a higher speed, given that it were driven by a competent driver. So bringing this back to the question, which would handle better? Well it depends on what you are after really. The Elise will have better weight distribution, has much more neutral handling as opposed to the understeer you get in a mini cornering at speed, and due to the track being over 20cm wider, will ultimately be more stable. However, at the very edge of both cars capabilities, the minis tendency to understeer probably means its handling is more accessible to people who are not used to mid engined, rear wheel drive cars.
In terms of roadholding an standard Elise would annihilate a standard mini, no questions asked. We're comparing a purpose built sports car to a 1950's design which was rushed to market, had variable parts quality and was not in any way optimised for cornering quickly. If you look at a standard mini you will notice that they have positive camber, which is there for no other reason than BMC/Leyland/Rover couldn't be bothered to sort it. The suspension cones used were supposed to be a stop gap solution until the hydrogas system was ready, and though an improved version was developed, it wasn't fitted to any production mini with the exception of the innocenti. The suspension on a standard mini is about as far removed from the suspension on an Elise as is possible.
Saying that however, the oversights made on production minis do leave an awful lot of potential for modification. As people have mentioned, the narrow wheels can be replaced with wider ones, which significantly improves cornering. I found that with 165 section sports tyres, and 5 inch wheels I could corner 10mph faster than on the standard 145 section and 4.5 inch wheels. I imagine that a set of road legal semi slicks (like the faster Elises) would also yield significant improvements in roadholding. An increase to 13x6" wheels would probably improve on this even more, providing you could get a soft enough compound to work with the low weight of a mini. If the lightest 13" alloys were used, there probably wouldn't be much difference in handling compared to standard steel wheels either. An adjustable suspension kit is easily available and again improves handling and roadholding significantly. If you corner weighted the mini you would also improve things. In defence of the the rather unique suspension cone system, this would probably be worth retaining for two reasons. Firstly, it doesn't require any strut braces for extra rigidity, unlike your average wishbone suspension set up. The later, and most common shells are made of a thicker gauge steel than the early ones and have a different subframe mounting system which is more than stiff enough for the job (as an aside, the early shells had a builders foam like material injected into various cavities to prevent water ingress, which was found to make the shell circa 10% stiffer!). Secondly, the fully independent suspension features cones with a progressive spring rate, which means that the cornering is very flat after the initial turn in, despite the short suspension travel. Although coil springs are available for a mini, they are more for comfort than performance. On smooth tarmac, the cones are more than adequate, although potholes will expose deficiencies in the smaller wheels, short travel suspension and poor bump steer characteristics.
Ultimately, with an extensive list of modifications, the mini can be made to corner very well indeed. However, when you factor in the need for a more powerful engine, and better brakes to exploit your new found cornering speed, the question of why would you bother unless you specifically want a fast mini, is one you'd have to decide for yourself. It is possible to make a mini capable of similar cornering to an elise, but the time and money involved would probably make it an awful lot easier to just save up and buy the Elise and have the satisfaction of having a very competent and reliable road car, as opposed to a mini which isn't really original any more, and only usable on a track. Basically it all comes down to what you want, a fun classic, or a dedicated sports car. Sorry about the essay
Thanks for that, top post and loads of useful information.First off, a lot of people seem to be confusing handling with road holding. Handling is how the car responds to driver inputs, such as steering, braking and acceleration,think understeer, oversteer, weight transfers etc. Roadholding is more about the maximum speed the car can corner at before it begins to lose grip. These are two separate things and quite important when you're comparing such different cars. For example, a standard mini on 145 section tyres handles quite nicely, in that it has sharp steering and predictable responses to differing steering inputs but the overall cornering speed will be quite low. A diesel mk4 golf would not handle as nicely, and would not respond as well to steering inputs due to the chronic understeer (even by mini standards) and yet it would almost certainly corner at a higher speed, given that it were driven by a competent driver. So bringing this back to the question, which would handle better? Well it depends on what you are after really. The Elise will have better weight distribution, has much more neutral handling as opposed to the understeer you get in a mini cornering at speed, and due to the track being over 20cm wider, will ultimately be more stable. However, at the very edge of both cars capabilities, the minis tendency to understeer probably means its handling is more accessible to people who are not used to mid engined, rear wheel drive cars.
In terms of roadholding an standard Elise would annihilate a standard mini, no questions asked. We're comparing a purpose built sports car to a 1950's design which was rushed to market, had variable parts quality and was not in any way optimised for cornering quickly. If you look at a standard mini you will notice that they have positive camber, which is there for no other reason than BMC/Leyland/Rover couldn't be bothered to sort it. The suspension cones used were supposed to be a stop gap solution until the hydrogas system was ready, and though an improved version was developed, it wasn't fitted to any production mini with the exception of the innocenti. The suspension on a standard mini is about as far removed from the suspension on an Elise as is possible.
Saying that however, the oversights made on production minis do leave an awful lot of potential for modification. As people have mentioned, the narrow wheels can be replaced with wider ones, which significantly improves cornering. I found that with 165 section sports tyres, and 5 inch wheels I could corner 10mph faster than on the standard 145 section and 4.5 inch wheels. I imagine that a set of road legal semi slicks (like the faster Elises) would also yield significant improvements in roadholding. An increase to 13x6" wheels would probably improve on this even more, providing you could get a soft enough compound to work with the low weight of a mini. If the lightest 13" alloys were used, there probably wouldn't be much difference in handling compared to standard steel wheels either. An adjustable suspension kit is easily available and again improves handling and roadholding significantly. If you corner weighted the mini you would also improve things. In defence of the the rather unique suspension cone system, this would probably be worth retaining for two reasons. Firstly, it doesn't require any strut braces for extra rigidity, unlike your average wishbone suspension set up. The later, and most common shells are made of a thicker gauge steel than the early ones and have a different subframe mounting system which is more than stiff enough for the job (as an aside, the early shells had a builders foam like material injected into various cavities to prevent water ingress, which was found to make the shell circa 10% stiffer!). Secondly, the fully independent suspension features cones with a progressive spring rate, which means that the cornering is very flat after the initial turn in, despite the short suspension travel. Although coil springs are available for a mini, they are more for comfort than performance. On smooth tarmac, the cones are more than adequate, although potholes will expose deficiencies in the smaller wheels, short travel suspension and poor bump steer characteristics.
Ultimately, with an extensive list of modifications, the mini can be made to corner very well indeed. However, when you factor in the need for a more powerful engine, and better brakes to exploit your new found cornering speed, the question of why would you bother unless you specifically want a fast mini, is one you'd have to decide for yourself. It is possible to make a mini capable of similar cornering to an elise, but the time and money involved would probably make it an awful lot easier to just save up and buy the Elise and have the satisfaction of having a very competent and reliable road car, as opposed to a mini which isn't really original any more, and only usable on a track. Basically it all comes down to what you want, a fun classic, or a dedicated sports car. Sorry about the essay
Outright speed hasn't really been a factor, fun is the key. Having owned two Elise's I can confidently say that they've been the most fun I've had on four wheels. The reason for the post was that I'd always expected them both to provide a similar level of fun, but with both having the ability to go around corners quickly. I'd not expected the little mini to compare evenly with the Elise, but had thought that the mini would stick to the road like glue, albeit carrying a lower speed through.
I'm in the process of a potential move and would be looking to sell my AMG, pocket some cash and buy something fun and cheap to run and I've always been a fan of classic mini's. I live in a semi rural location so plenty of little lanes and b roads to bomb about on.
Your post has given me plenty of valuable information, if I did end up with a mini I would be happy to throw a little money on wheels and suspension for a nice road setup.
Thanks again.
having had both .. elise s1 and a genuine mini cooper s from 1966 with twin tanks ...ohh it was nice !
id have to say both were very good in different ways .
the elise was always pin sharp in turning in ..easy to place in corners e.t.c always alit bit weary in wet weather though .
the mini was great to throw around .. could be controlled with the hand break ..lovely thing ..
but also id throw in a 205 gti as another great handling car ..but its joy was keeping power down in corners ..
all great handling cars ..couldnt say what one was best though ?
all required the driver to learn the car and get in tune with them for best results though ..
id have to say both were very good in different ways .
the elise was always pin sharp in turning in ..easy to place in corners e.t.c always alit bit weary in wet weather though .
the mini was great to throw around .. could be controlled with the hand break ..lovely thing ..
but also id throw in a 205 gti as another great handling car ..but its joy was keeping power down in corners ..
all great handling cars ..couldnt say what one was best though ?
all required the driver to learn the car and get in tune with them for best results though ..
Edited by angelicupstarts on Tuesday 1st December 19:59
A classic Mini handles exceptionally well for a late 1950s family car, though by today's standards it is actually terrible - little suspension travel, tiny tyres and poor damping. The redeeming feature was excellent controllability, extremely controllable under/over steer with the throttle, even with the basic versions.
Wonderful to drive fast (by 1960s standards), it could be chucked around by drivers with a modest talent.
Progress improved it a lot - more power, better suspension and tyres, though limited by a 1950s basic design.
Most contemporary cars will run rings around a classic Mini. But without the style, charm and sheer fun.
Wonderful to drive fast (by 1960s standards), it could be chucked around by drivers with a modest talent.
Progress improved it a lot - more power, better suspension and tyres, though limited by a 1950s basic design.
Most contemporary cars will run rings around a classic Mini. But without the style, charm and sheer fun.
Take a look here: http://www.mini7.co.uk/laprecords.php
That details all the current Mini Se7en lap records. A Mini Se7en is 998cc. Nearly 60 years of racing development means you can build a mini to be incredibly competitive even by todays standards and the bird are good value and available off the shelf.
That details all the current Mini Se7en lap records. A Mini Se7en is 998cc. Nearly 60 years of racing development means you can build a mini to be incredibly competitive even by todays standards and the bird are good value and available off the shelf.
HorneyMX5 said:
Take a look here: http://www.mini7.co.uk/laprecords.php
That details all the current Mini Se7en lap records. A Mini Se7en is 998cc. Nearly 60 years of racing development means you can build a mini to be incredibly competitive even by todays standards and the bird are good value and available off the shelf.
Thing is, you can make just about anything rapid round a track by just preventing the suspension from suspending the car! On a smooth race track, simply stopping the suspension from moving works well. (iffy kinematics and poor dynamics are removed at a stroke).That details all the current Mini Se7en lap records. A Mini Se7en is 998cc. Nearly 60 years of racing development means you can build a mini to be incredibly competitive even by todays standards and the bird are good value and available off the shelf.
On the road, that's not the case!
The Classic mini was a good handler in it's time for a couple of reasons:
1) Stiff (relatively) body shell
2) Compact, low polar moment powertrain directly over the driving wheels
3) Precision steering (used a steering rack, when a lot of things used a remote box!)
4) Reasonable suspension kinematics - ok, not by modern standards, but compared to the lumbering, often leaf sprung, beam axled saloon cars of the period.
Oh indeed, a classic mini is never going to be a comfy barge on a B road but that's not what the OP asked for.
I used to track a 96bhp 1275cc 1991 Rover Cooper and Standard Elises would only get away on long straights. In the corners you could make up a bit of ground. My mini had 12x5 wheels with Yoko Semi slicks on, Gaz dampers, Hi-Los, Neg camber arms, rear camber brackets and descent pads and shoes in the brakes. With the damper softened off for road use it was hardly any worse than the standard car for ride comfort. On track it was only really let down by a lack of straight line grunt. At the time it was good cheap fun but sadly cheap minis are a thing of the past.
These days cheap track cars are MX5s and I now enjoy overtaking Elises in one with the aid of a little forced induction thanks to a bit of kit swiped off a more modern MINI.
I used to track a 96bhp 1275cc 1991 Rover Cooper and Standard Elises would only get away on long straights. In the corners you could make up a bit of ground. My mini had 12x5 wheels with Yoko Semi slicks on, Gaz dampers, Hi-Los, Neg camber arms, rear camber brackets and descent pads and shoes in the brakes. With the damper softened off for road use it was hardly any worse than the standard car for ride comfort. On track it was only really let down by a lack of straight line grunt. At the time it was good cheap fun but sadly cheap minis are a thing of the past.
These days cheap track cars are MX5s and I now enjoy overtaking Elises in one with the aid of a little forced induction thanks to a bit of kit swiped off a more modern MINI.
eldar said:
A classic Mini handles exceptionally well for a late 1950s family car, though by today's standards it is actually terrible - little suspension travel, tiny tyres and poor damping. The redeeming feature was excellent controllability, extremely controllable under/over steer with the throttle, even with the basic versions.
Wonderful to drive fast (by 1960s standards), it could be chucked around by drivers with a modest talent.
Progress improved it a lot - more power, better suspension and tyres, though limited by a 1950s basic design.
Most contemporary cars will run rings around a classic Mini. But without the style, charm and sheer fun.
Cant say fairer than that, used to drive original Minis quite a lot when I worked for a dealer and there was some fun element but generally we viewed them as miserable contraptions that were purgatorial in comparison to even a MK3 Escort, most arent (or werent then) well set up cherished Coopers with sensible modifications, they were many 850's in sWonderful to drive fast (by 1960s standards), it could be chucked around by drivers with a modest talent.
Progress improved it a lot - more power, better suspension and tyres, though limited by a 1950s basic design.
Most contemporary cars will run rings around a classic Mini. But without the style, charm and sheer fun.
te brown and mouldy interiors that pogoed around at the hint of a bump and generally you wanted to get out fairly soon after getting in, they were one up from a Fiat 126 and two down from anything else, they werent that cool then when the roads still teemed with them, most owners would have killed for the warm embrace of a MK2 Fiesta Popular Plus.Fun, when you didnt actually have to own and drive one every day, most owners never thought much about the handling, they just wanted a proper car.
Dont get me wrong, I do love Minis, but lets be realistic.
Can't agree with you there, I've been driving Minis on and off for 35 years and, if necessary, I would still have one as my only car and enjoy it for what it is. I might use the train slightly more often for some of the 200 miles to and meeting and back in a day things, but if it involved an overnight it wouldn't worry me. Not very long ago I set off to do a 100 mile round trip on a train using a 1977 Mini to go to the station, decided the Mini would be preferable and certainly didn't regret it. But then I like driving and having fun while doing so!
Theophany said:
SidewaysSi said:
Anything unreliable about an Elise that you have experienced or it is pure speculation?
The two people I personally know that had them had pretty torrid experienes, both involving major (see: flipping expensive) engine repairs. Enough to put me off. 
t 
. Could be user error of course. I have had my K series Elise for 3 years and nothing has gone wrong but what do I know? I am sure it will explode in the not too distant future.It's like everything - take care of it and most probably you will be fine.
I curently have an Elise and Caterham but to this day I still regret selling the Mini I owned over 15 years ago. 10" wheels with 145 section tyres, 39 bhp and a load of fun. It would oversteer at 20mph and had brilliant steering and handling. Though it did get hairy when the speeds increased..
VYJ 327Y, where are you now?!
I do often think of getting another and chucking £5K of mods on it-would be a brilliant thing.
VYJ 327Y, where are you now?!
I do often think of getting another and chucking £5K of mods on it-would be a brilliant thing.
Having owned a 1996 Mini Cooper and a 2002 s2 Elise, I feel I can answer this...
Elise by a million miles!
Both terrific fun but the lotus handles like a house fly, even when it stepped out it was so easy to catch.
Never felt in the slightest bit out of control.
On the other hand, I rolled my Mini into a field
Elise by a million miles!
Both terrific fun but the lotus handles like a house fly, even when it stepped out it was so easy to catch.
Never felt in the slightest bit out of control.
On the other hand, I rolled my Mini into a field
Been a passenger in a 1275 mini, felt brilliant, 30 felt like 60, huge grin factor all round. Can't comment on me driving it personally.
Did a track day experience in a bog standard S1 elise (1.8k series rover engine) what a car, I don't think I've ever been in a car that felt so alive... However...
I've also travelled many miles in a 1.7 puma and I'm putting this here to say that whole heartedly it is the best of both worlds. Not as light as the mini or elise but as a daily driver I've never had a car like it. Front wheel drive chassis to die for.
I'll add this caveat, the time out in the mini was 12 years ago, the elise 8 years ago and the puma 7 years ago. Still going to buy another puma soon though.
Did a track day experience in a bog standard S1 elise (1.8k series rover engine) what a car, I don't think I've ever been in a car that felt so alive... However...
I've also travelled many miles in a 1.7 puma and I'm putting this here to say that whole heartedly it is the best of both worlds. Not as light as the mini or elise but as a daily driver I've never had a car like it. Front wheel drive chassis to die for.
I'll add this caveat, the time out in the mini was 12 years ago, the elise 8 years ago and the puma 7 years ago. Still going to buy another puma soon though.
SidewaysSi said:
Well a sample of 2 must mean they are all st . Could be user error of course. I have had my K series Elise for 3 years and nothing has gone wrong but what do I know? I am sure it will explode in the not too distant future.
It's like everything - take care of it and most probably you will be fine.
the great thing is with elises, if the engine does go kaboom there are a couple of really well documented engine swaps. espcially the vtech honda route, brilliant engines with plenty of aftermarket tuning bits. Pretty sure ive heard of vw 1.8T swaps as well as some mental swaps like v6 audi engines.t . Could be user error of course. I have had my K series Elise for 3 years and nothing has gone wrong but what do I know? I am sure it will explode in the not too distant future.It's like everything - take care of it and most probably you will be fine.
Theophany said:
The two people I personally know that had them had pretty torrid experienes, both involving major (see: flipping expensive) engine repairs. Enough to put me off.
Well there's probably 15,000 Elises out there that have engines you can buy second hand for £150, so I wouldn't let it put you off...To redress the balance, mine covered 124,000 miles with NO engine issues. There was nothing on it that was flipping expensive, chassis aside, most parts were cheap as chips - it's a K series not a Lotus-built V8!
Current one is on 130,000 miles and having finished rebuilding it (project car) am about to change the head gasket. £60. Compared to my Toyota, which required a new engine and cost thousands of pounds, the Elise is cheap.
SidewaysSi said:
Well a sample of 2 must mean they are all st . Could be user error of course. I have had my K series Elise for 3 years and nothing has gone wrong but what do I know? I am sure it will explode in the not too distant future.
It's like everything - take care of it and most probably you will be fine.
didnt the whole k series is unreliable thing all stem from the Head gasket , which got sorted with multilayer steel gaskets anyway? t . Could be user error of course. I have had my K series Elise for 3 years and nothing has gone wrong but what do I know? I am sure it will explode in the not too distant future.It's like everything - take care of it and most probably you will be fine.
Tinkshusband said:
SidewaysSi said:
Well a sample of 2 must mean they are all st . Could be user error of course. I have had my K series Elise for 3 years and nothing has gone wrong but what do I know? I am sure it will explode in the not too distant future.
It's like everything - take care of it and most probably you will be fine.
the great thing is with elises, if the engine does go kaboom there are a couple of really well documented engine swaps. espcially the vtech honda route, brilliant engines with plenty of aftermarket tuning bits. Pretty sure ive heard of vw 1.8T swaps as well as some mental swaps like v6 audi engines.t . Could be user error of course. I have had my K series Elise for 3 years and nothing has gone wrong but what do I know? I am sure it will explode in the not too distant future.It's like everything - take care of it and most probably you will be fine.
- Rover Elises have great lightweight engines that can suffer hgf. fix it, simple. cost of fix is less than depreciation on any other alternative.
- for last 13 years they've been Toyota powered. er?
reliability and cost of ownership over 10 years? lets talk any kind of diesel, porsche, french hatchback, italian stallion.....
sshh, don't let the secret out.
CABC said:
in the first place they're not unreliable! Theo above is quoting pub bs.
- Rover Elises have great lightweight engines that can suffer hgf. fix it, simple. cost of fix is less than depreciation on any other alternative.
- for last 13 years they've been Toyota powered. er?
reliability and cost of ownership over 10 years? lets talk any kind of diesel, porsche, french hatchback, italian stallion.....
sshh, don't let the secret out.
I know, its one of those things that will forever scar the reputation of the engine even though its undeserved. I remember when they stopped making the K, auto express did an article on what it had been fitted to - it ranged from freelanders and mgs to hovercraft and boats. it wouldnt be so widely used if it was actually unreliable. - Rover Elises have great lightweight engines that can suffer hgf. fix it, simple. cost of fix is less than depreciation on any other alternative.
- for last 13 years they've been Toyota powered. er?
reliability and cost of ownership over 10 years? lets talk any kind of diesel, porsche, french hatchback, italian stallion.....
sshh, don't let the secret out.
the toyota ones are the last gen celica engines if i remember correctly ?
I've owned a new 111R when they came out. I have also driven one of the last new Minis produced. For pretty low speed twisty roads the mini is probably more fun. For higher speeds the Elise is far more planted. However in the wet the Elise can be bloody dangerous as it has the weight distribution of a hammer.
How about splitting the difference and getting something in between. I used to have a new 106 GTI back in the day. That had sensational cornering ability. One of the few cars I've owned which I want to buy again some day, if only for nostalgic Sunday fun. I also have thoughts about a 106 Rallye with a super bike engine. That would be incredible fun.
How about splitting the difference and getting something in between. I used to have a new 106 GTI back in the day. That had sensational cornering ability. One of the few cars I've owned which I want to buy again some day, if only for nostalgic Sunday fun. I also have thoughts about a 106 Rallye with a super bike engine. That would be incredible fun.
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