B7 RS4 vs. E90 M3 vs. C63 AMG
Discussion
Ares said:
Also..... "I also like AWD in a performance car, as you can corner about twice as quickly and stop in half the time 
"
AWD doesn't improve cornering or braking. AWD improves traction. Subaru & EVO drivers who assumed that AWD gave them improved cornering and braking were often the ones that woke up wrapped round a tree!
That was a joke hence the "AWD doesn't improve cornering or braking. AWD improves traction. Subaru & EVO drivers who assumed that AWD gave them improved cornering and braking were often the ones that woke up wrapped round a tree!
but I do like the better traction on wet/icy roads, which is tangible 
ORD said:
xjay1337 said:
If you went two cars I really can't see why you wouldn't go for a 330d/335d e90/92 and then the Elise as mentioned.
Keep the costs down on the "daily".
With an exhaust system the 6cyl diesels sound mega and real world daily driving are quicker than the equivalent petrols.
Stick a £300 map on them and you've gained another 40bhp and the same above in torque.
Keep the costs down on the "daily".
With an exhaust system the 6cyl diesels sound mega and real world daily driving are quicker than the equivalent petrols.
Stick a £300 map on them and you've gained another 40bhp and the same above in torque.
Not this s
t again! They are slower and sound st.As for a £300 map.... only if you don't like you car. Mine cost £3k (including suspension), that gives an extra 70bhp/100lb ft (and full warranty intact)....I didn't want to risk a £1000 map let alone a £300 one.
They are as quick as real world petrols equivalents, sometimes quicker....but the M3 isn't a real equivalent of any diesel.
That said, a lesser hack and proper sports car is a great alternative to throwing the whole lot on a sports saloon.
I go for the 2 car approach too. In that sense the sensible 4 door car doesn't have to be the best driver car or have a manual gearbox etc as there is something else to cover that base. For me I would have got a C63 but I'm less keen on the modern aggressive styling (similar can be said of M3 and RS4) and also chose to spend less and got a C55. Both of my cars are more like second cars rather than daily and weekend as neither is used to commute.
cerb4.5lee said:
ORD said:
xjay1337 said:
If you went two cars I really can't see why you wouldn't go for a 330d/335d e90/92 and then the Elise as mentioned.
Keep the costs down on the "daily".
With an exhaust system the 6cyl diesels sound mega and real world daily driving are quicker than the equivalent petrols.
Stick a £300 map on them and you've gained another 40bhp and the same above in torque.
Keep the costs down on the "daily".
With an exhaust system the 6cyl diesels sound mega and real world daily driving are quicker than the equivalent petrols.
Stick a £300 map on them and you've gained another 40bhp and the same above in torque.
Not this s
t again! They are slower and sound st.
I can see where xjay is coming from in some ways though.
My stylish 335D coupe had 350 bhp / 525 lb ft, sounded ok and was extremely quick in the cut and thrust traffic and on the increasingly crowded roads we have to cope with in reality. It regularly left behind my mate's E46 M3 on a run out, if he wasn't really on the case.
Anyone that can afford a fun car and a sensible car, do it, it's how I choose my garage, but if one car really has to do the lot and be all things to all men; then the 335D or Golf R are the best there is out there imo.
cerb4.5lee said:
ORD said:
xjay1337 said:
If you went two cars I really can't see why you wouldn't go for a 330d/335d e90/92 and then the Elise as mentioned.
Keep the costs down on the "daily".
With an exhaust system the 6cyl diesels sound mega and real world daily driving are quicker than the equivalent petrols.
Stick a £300 map on them and you've gained another 40bhp and the same above in torque.
Keep the costs down on the "daily".
With an exhaust system the 6cyl diesels sound mega and real world daily driving are quicker than the equivalent petrols.
Stick a £300 map on them and you've gained another 40bhp and the same above in torque.
Not this s
t again! They are slower and sound st.I can see where xjay is coming from in some ways though.
Why not have one fast, reliable and fairly economical "nice" car for daily duties and a proper fun toy at the weekends?
From another forum -
"Standard the car made 295.8 bhp which is pretty good for standard
344.7 was the final figure with 500 plus torque have to look at exact figure approx 550lbt I think.."
Sorry 350bhp, 550lb ft and 40+ mpg are boring.
It would piss on an E46 M3 and in all honesty I think would keep pace happily with an E92 M3.
Merely a suggestion for the OP looking at it in a different angle. Sorry that's not to your specific liking ord.
It's just such nonsense. If you want to map a turbo car, map a turbo petrol. The ONLY benefit of a diesel car is saving money on fuel (and spending it instead on purchase price and other running costs).
A 335d the best all-rounder? What about a 335i or M4? Better in every respect except fuel consumption.
I have no issue with people who cannot afford petrol running fast diesel cars (apart from that being a grossly selfish act from an environmental perspective), but the pretense that it is for driving reasons is irritatingly insincere or at least self-deluding.
A 335d the best all-rounder? What about a 335i or M4? Better in every respect except fuel consumption.
I have no issue with people who cannot afford petrol running fast diesel cars (apart from that being a grossly selfish act from an environmental perspective), but the pretense that it is for driving reasons is irritatingly insincere or at least self-deluding.
jamieduff1981 said:
All rounders are a compromise as you know. Whether or not they're a good compromise depends on how much you expect from it.
Anything that adds to engagement and fun makes it worse as a soothing long distance cruiser. Anything that makes it less of a PITA in a traffic jam makes it less engaging on a Sunday thrash.
If you have a lot of money and can afford a decent sports car and a fast family car, go for it. That's like having enough money to have a good homely wife who looks after the house and cooks well, whilst having a dominatrix in the guest bedroom and them both being fine with that. If you can only really afford the one however, then that's fine so long as you don't expect too much from it.
Is an M3 much more exciting than a 320d long term? No. No it isn't. You get used to the power. It's not that noisy normally. You don't/can't use the extra performance most of the time, it looks like a 320d with 4 exhaust pipes and bigger wheels. You'll be in it every day for mundane stuff and the furthest thing from your mind will be to take it out voluntarily for a thrash once you've owned it for 6 months. If you have enough money to just get the M3 over the 320d anyway because "Why would I want the slow rattler?" then fine - you'll be happy with it. I have a V8 Jag because I don't need to settle for the diesel / don't need the MPG. I like the car a lot, but I never take it out for an A-to-A drive. I'm in it every day. I drove in to work in snow the last 2 days. It's just my daily driver. It's my Cerbera I take out on A-to-A drives, but this year I've done 3 of those. To get any use of it it needs to be used instead of the Jag.
But it's variety and it's hard work. Sometimes I want that. Sometimes I need it. If my total car budget was what I spent on the fast saloon, I'd be sick of it by now - and I've only had it 18 months.
Great post, I've tried performance saloons\coupes from all 3 German manufacturers and have come to the same conclusion. After 6 months sat in traffic or carting the family around at 30mph, you realise you'd be better off in a 2 litre diesel. Then on the rare occasion you are on your own and get to open them up, they are nowhere near as exciting as a dedicated sports car, just a faster version of a normal car. Anything that adds to engagement and fun makes it worse as a soothing long distance cruiser. Anything that makes it less of a PITA in a traffic jam makes it less engaging on a Sunday thrash.
If you have a lot of money and can afford a decent sports car and a fast family car, go for it. That's like having enough money to have a good homely wife who looks after the house and cooks well, whilst having a dominatrix in the guest bedroom and them both being fine with that. If you can only really afford the one however, then that's fine so long as you don't expect too much from it.
Is an M3 much more exciting than a 320d long term? No. No it isn't. You get used to the power. It's not that noisy normally. You don't/can't use the extra performance most of the time, it looks like a 320d with 4 exhaust pipes and bigger wheels. You'll be in it every day for mundane stuff and the furthest thing from your mind will be to take it out voluntarily for a thrash once you've owned it for 6 months. If you have enough money to just get the M3 over the 320d anyway because "Why would I want the slow rattler?" then fine - you'll be happy with it. I have a V8 Jag because I don't need to settle for the diesel / don't need the MPG. I like the car a lot, but I never take it out for an A-to-A drive. I'm in it every day. I drove in to work in snow the last 2 days. It's just my daily driver. It's my Cerbera I take out on A-to-A drives, but this year I've done 3 of those. To get any use of it it needs to be used instead of the Jag.
But it's variety and it's hard work. Sometimes I want that. Sometimes I need it. If my total car budget was what I spent on the fast saloon, I'd be sick of it by now - and I've only had it 18 months.
The problem is the 2 car scenario isn't ideal either as the fun car would never get used so you spend 99% of your time in a boring car. It's a catch 22 situation. I need to earn more money so I can afford a decent daily AND decent weekend car
ORD said:
It's just such nonsense. If you want to map a turbo car, map a turbo petrol. The ONLY benefit of a diesel car is saving money on fuel (and spending it instead on purchase price and other running costs).
A 335d the best all-rounder? What about a 335i or M4? Better in every respect except fuel consumption.
I have no issue with people who cannot afford petrol running fast diesel cars (apart from that being a grossly selfish act from an environmental perspective), but the pretense that it is for driving reasons is irritatingly insincere or at least self-deluding.
Or, maybe, some people prefer diesel and how they drive, the power/torque delivery, there's a lot more to it than "fuel".A 335d the best all-rounder? What about a 335i or M4? Better in every respect except fuel consumption.
I have no issue with people who cannot afford petrol running fast diesel cars (apart from that being a grossly selfish act from an environmental perspective), but the pretense that it is for driving reasons is irritatingly insincere or at least self-deluding.
I had a stage 2 Mk5 GTI running 275bhp and I prefer my Scirocco TDI running 250. It's also 3 seconds faster 60-100.
A 335i / 335d will have similar power when mapped yet the d will have a heap more torque. Outright acceleration, it will be slower. But "in gear" acceleration, 30-70, 50-70, then the diesel will generally have the edge.
You can't mention environmental responsibilities and then recommend a 300/350/400/450/500bhp sports/super car.
I had this dilemma two years ago, when I had much more disposable income than I do now.
RS4, I wanted an avant, didn't see the point in the saloon, however coked heads, fragile DRC, Overpriced brakes, inlet manifold issues amongst other problems, ruled one out for me.
C63 Again I wanted an estate, but couldn't get on with the pre facelift interior, facelift car was out of budget, so this was a non starter from the beginning, I do wish I went down the C63 route at times for the noise!!!
M3, I've had numerous E91s, all diesel, and I felt the E90 M3 was the next step, I bought a DCT car after trying a manual and hating it.
Ultimately I felt the M3 was the best all round car of the 3, it did everything I needed it to, except carry my spaniel.
If I found myself choosing between the 3 again it would likely be the M3 that I'd choose again
RS4, I wanted an avant, didn't see the point in the saloon, however coked heads, fragile DRC, Overpriced brakes, inlet manifold issues amongst other problems, ruled one out for me.
C63 Again I wanted an estate, but couldn't get on with the pre facelift interior, facelift car was out of budget, so this was a non starter from the beginning, I do wish I went down the C63 route at times for the noise!!!
M3, I've had numerous E91s, all diesel, and I felt the E90 M3 was the next step, I bought a DCT car after trying a manual and hating it.
Ultimately I felt the M3 was the best all round car of the 3, it did everything I needed it to, except carry my spaniel.
If I found myself choosing between the 3 again it would likely be the M3 that I'd choose again
ORD said:
It's just such nonsense. If you want to map a turbo car, map a turbo petrol. The ONLY benefit of a diesel car is saving money on fuel (and spending it instead on purchase price and other running costs).
A 335d the best all-rounder? What about a 335i or M4? Better in every respect except fuel consumption.
I have no issue with people who cannot afford petrol running fast diesel cars (apart from that being a grossly selfish act from an environmental perspective), but the pretense that it is for driving reasons is irritatingly insincere or at least self-deluding.
I think what you mean is that if you were to choose a diesel over a petrol it would be for monetary reasons? What gives you the special insight to tell someone unequivocally why they made a certain decision? That's rather arrogant don't you think? Particularly when you may not even know that person.A 335d the best all-rounder? What about a 335i or M4? Better in every respect except fuel consumption.
I have no issue with people who cannot afford petrol running fast diesel cars (apart from that being a grossly selfish act from an environmental perspective), but the pretense that it is for driving reasons is irritatingly insincere or at least self-deluding.
I can think of a few non-monetary reasons why someone may choose a 335d over a 335i, because as long as they have different characteristics, there will be people with preferences for one or the other. However, putting that aside for a minute, I don't think I'd ever have the presumption to tell somebody why they made a particular decision, and then go one stage further to label that person as 'insincere' or 'deluded' if they happen to disagree with your assessment.
Edited by RobM77 on Wednesday 2nd December 10:34
RobM77 said:
ORD said:
It's just such nonsense. If you want to map a turbo car, map a turbo petrol. The ONLY benefit of a diesel car is saving money on fuel (and spending it instead on purchase price and other running costs).
A 335d the best all-rounder? What about a 335i or M4? Better in every respect except fuel consumption.
I have no issue with people who cannot afford petrol running fast diesel cars (apart from that being a grossly selfish act from an environmental perspective), but the pretense that it is for driving reasons is irritatingly insincere or at least self-deluding.
I think what you mean is that if you were to choose a diesel over a petrol it would be for monetary reasons? What gives you the special insight to tell someone unequivocally why they made a certain decision? That's rather arrogant don't you think? Particularly when you may not even know that person.A 335d the best all-rounder? What about a 335i or M4? Better in every respect except fuel consumption.
I have no issue with people who cannot afford petrol running fast diesel cars (apart from that being a grossly selfish act from an environmental perspective), but the pretense that it is for driving reasons is irritatingly insincere or at least self-deluding.
I can think of a few non-monetary reasons why someone may choose a 335d over a 335i, but putting that aside for a minute, I don't think I'd ever have the presumption to tell somebody why they made a particular decision, and then go one stage further to label that person as 'insincere' or 'deluded' if they happen to disagree with your assessment.
Edited by RobM77 on Wednesday 2nd December 10:32
If fuel was free, nobody would buy a 335d.
ORD said:
RobM77 said:
ORD said:
It's just such nonsense. If you want to map a turbo car, map a turbo petrol. The ONLY benefit of a diesel car is saving money on fuel (and spending it instead on purchase price and other running costs).
A 335d the best all-rounder? What about a 335i or M4? Better in every respect except fuel consumption.
I have no issue with people who cannot afford petrol running fast diesel cars (apart from that being a grossly selfish act from an environmental perspective), but the pretense that it is for driving reasons is irritatingly insincere or at least self-deluding.
I think what you mean is that if you were to choose a diesel over a petrol it would be for monetary reasons? What gives you the special insight to tell someone unequivocally why they made a certain decision? That's rather arrogant don't you think? Particularly when you may not even know that person.A 335d the best all-rounder? What about a 335i or M4? Better in every respect except fuel consumption.
I have no issue with people who cannot afford petrol running fast diesel cars (apart from that being a grossly selfish act from an environmental perspective), but the pretense that it is for driving reasons is irritatingly insincere or at least self-deluding.
I can think of a few non-monetary reasons why someone may choose a 335d over a 335i, but putting that aside for a minute, I don't think I'd ever have the presumption to tell somebody why they made a particular decision, and then go one stage further to label that person as 'insincere' or 'deluded' if they happen to disagree with your assessment.
Edited by RobM77 on Wednesday 2nd December 10:32
If fuel was free, nobody would buy a 335d.
You're quite a perceptive PHer; I'm sure if you actually stop and think about it you can see why some people would prefer a diesel to a petrol. I confess it's going to be fairly unusual (like preferring Prosecco to Champagne), but it does happen.Shall we get the thread back on topic by talking about the very valid point that someone may choose a 330d and an Elise over an M3?
The two car option is not everyone's cup of tea, because some people may not get the opportunity to drive the Elise much at all. I for example used an Elise as my only car for three years (B road commute, no need to cart stuff around), which was amazing; then it got relegated to a second car for five years when I started driving more on motorways and took up activities that needed me to cart stuff around. Imagine if you commuted entirely on the motorway or in a town and also had two children - you might never get to drive the weekend car at all, thus a need for an M3 as your one and only car. The OP needs to think about this, although I suspect he may have done already?
Edited by RobM77 on Wednesday 2nd December 11:09
I'm after a C63. That engine! To die for, and I'm slightly drawn to the axe murderer type character. I haven't driven one yet, but from what I've seen its lairy and feels special at normal speeds. Its also the last of the breed, there will never be another small exec with s great big hulking 6.2 V8. am shocked that I'm hankering after an auto Merc, never thought that day would come.
I've driven the e92 M3 and wanted to love it, but I didn't. I'm sure it a great car, I probably just needed more than an hour test drive on country roads (on a side note, how can you ever tell what a car is like without having it to yourself for a weekend???), but coming from an Elise it just didn't feel special enough, didn't feel like an experience. It also didn't feel particularly fast. I love the looks though, especially the 4 door which is so much sexier than the 2 door.
Rs4, even though it's my fav Rs Audi, I wouldn't consider against these two, though I can understand why people do.
I've driven the e92 M3 and wanted to love it, but I didn't. I'm sure it a great car, I probably just needed more than an hour test drive on country roads (on a side note, how can you ever tell what a car is like without having it to yourself for a weekend???), but coming from an Elise it just didn't feel special enough, didn't feel like an experience. It also didn't feel particularly fast. I love the looks though, especially the 4 door which is so much sexier than the 2 door.
Rs4, even though it's my fav Rs Audi, I wouldn't consider against these two, though I can understand why people do.
Edited by daytona111r on Wednesday 2nd December 11:15
ORD said:
Probably a good analogy! Equally perplexing to me.
You are probably right, and I am sorry to all for my silly little rant. I certainly did not mean to offend anyone and apologise for being a bit of a tit.
Anyway, back on topic. M3. Game over
Oh, no worries, no offence taken, I just wanted to point out the above.You are probably right, and I am sorry to all for my silly little rant. I certainly did not mean to offend anyone and apologise for being a bit of a tit.
Anyway, back on topic. M3. Game over
Another analogy was Clarkson's insistence that the only reason people bought Boxsters was because they couldn't afford a 911, which to me always seemed like an odd thing to say, especially when for the price of a new Boxster you can buy a mint condition two or three year old 911, so there's thousands of happy Porsche customers a year who disprove his point!
RobM77 said:
Oh, no worries, no offence taken, I just wanted to point out the above.
Another analogy was Clarkson's insistence that the only reason people bought Boxsters was because they couldn't afford a 911, which to me always seemed like an odd thing to say, especially when for the price of a new Boxster you can buy a mint condition two or three year old 911, so there's thousands of happy Porsche customers a year who disprove his point!
Nah. That Clarkonism is crassly stupid, rather than just unthinking or knee-jerk Another analogy was Clarkson's insistence that the only reason people bought Boxsters was because they couldn't afford a 911, which to me always seemed like an odd thing to say, especially when for the price of a new Boxster you can buy a mint condition two or three year old 911, so there's thousands of happy Porsche customers a year who disprove his point!
It shows that he has no clue about either car (not unusual for him).Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff