B7 RS4 vs. E90 M3 vs. C63 AMG
Discussion
Ares said:
I'm a high-powered diesel fan, and even I wouldn't agree with them sounding 'mega'. The 30d sound poor. The 35/40d sounds a bit better. But still a league away from a petrol V8 of any flavour.
As for a £300 map.... only if you don't like you car. Mine cost £3k (including suspension), that gives an extra 70bhp/100lb ft (and full warranty intact)....I didn't want to risk a £1000 map let alone a £300 one.
They are as quick as real world petrols equivalents, sometimes quicker....but the M3 isn't a real equivalent of any diesel.
That said, a lesser hack and proper sports car is a great alternative to throwing the whole lot on a sports saloon.
I missed your post mate, sorry.As for a £300 map.... only if you don't like you car. Mine cost £3k (including suspension), that gives an extra 70bhp/100lb ft (and full warranty intact)....I didn't want to risk a £1000 map let alone a £300 one.
They are as quick as real world petrols equivalents, sometimes quicker....but the M3 isn't a real equivalent of any diesel.
That said, a lesser hack and proper sports car is a great alternative to throwing the whole lot on a sports saloon.
It depends on your engine
It depends also on the tuner. From the likes of Revo a map for a VAG engine can cost between £300 and £2000!
My personal tuning cost £600 on my diesel, and took on-off two weeks of work on the dyno.
I've noticed a DMS remap for an M4 runs into the thousands of pounds. Think of it as "nice car tax". In reality they are no more difficult to map than , for example , a Mk6 or Mk7 GTI. Most ECU's are from a manufacturer such as Bosch and run base code eg MED7 ME17, EDC15, EDC17, you may find (for example) than an EDC17 ECU may be fitted to some BMW, VW/Audi/Skoda/Seat and vauxhall models. Once you've cracked the encryption then the options are all there!
But you can't charge £3000 to remap a £25k car as no-one would do it, rule of cost v reward v market
Where as if you're spending £70k on a "nice" car you are more likely to have the money, also I suppose the tuning market is smaller (it takes the same time to develop a remap for a car but there are less M4 owners) so you have to make your money back somewhere, by charging more
To totally, safely and fully custom map a Golf Mk5 GTI / Edition 30 / Audi S3/ Leon Cupra R takes between 2 and 3 hours. A basic map is loaded and then all the parameters are monitored/logged and adjusted as needs be.
I do not claim to be an ECU expert but given the appropriate tools I can put a stage 1 map on a VW "PD" engine. Common Rail diesels and petrols are far more complex and way out of my league.
The bulk of your cost of your remap for your warranty safe one is, probably, bundled in with the cost of the remap. IE the remap probably was £500 and the warranty is "paid for" with the difference.
You can also buy a decent tuning box from TDI Tuning or DTUk for around £300 which are not quite as good as a proper custom rolling road map but they are miles better than the old style "resistor in a box" that you used to get back in the early PD tuning days!
Edited by xjay1337 on Wednesday 2nd December 12:05
Bought a lovely 11 plate E90 M3 six months ago and can heartily recommend it. It does take a week or two to really gel with it, primarily because the V8 needs to really, and I mean really REV to feel blisteringly quick. South of 6k and it feels very rapid, but only after closing in on the red line (over 8000rpm) does it feel absolutely mental.
Steering is awesome, brakes perfectly acceptable although not amazing, sound is good but absolutely mind blowing with the oem exhaust modification (way ahead of a C63 once modified in my opinion). I think the saloon looks way more aggressive than the coupe, something to do with the fat rear arches being more prominent.
Can't comment on the others but a massive thumbs up on the M3 from me.
Steering is awesome, brakes perfectly acceptable although not amazing, sound is good but absolutely mind blowing with the oem exhaust modification (way ahead of a C63 once modified in my opinion). I think the saloon looks way more aggressive than the coupe, something to do with the fat rear arches being more prominent.
Can't comment on the others but a massive thumbs up on the M3 from me.
ORD said:
The difference between a wonderful V8 and a wonderful V8 is so much less important than the difference between a slusher and proper gearbox. How anyone could want to ruin a lovely engine by attaching it to a taxi transmission is beyond me!
DCTs sell for a £1-2k premium to manuals even at the £20k price point for the M3.Someone values them!
ORD said:
The difference between a wonderful V8 and a wonderful V8 is so much less important than the difference between a slusher and proper gearbox. How anyone could want to ruin a lovely engine by attaching it to a taxi transmission is beyond me!
Explain how the MCT transmission is a slushbox. Thanks.scherzkeks said:
ORD said:
The difference between a wonderful V8 and a wonderful V8 is so much less important than the difference between a slusher and proper gearbox. How anyone could want to ruin a lovely engine by attaching it to a taxi transmission is beyond me!
Explain how the MCT transmission is a slushbox. Thanks.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_C-Clas...
http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review/mercedes-benz/...
Here is a discussion of the M3's DCT vs Merc's MCT:
http://mbworld.org/forums/c63-amg-w204/417706-c63-...
Personally I've only used the 7G-Tronic torque converter box, which is indeed a slush box. I can't comment on what the MCT is like to drive.
I'll leave more detailed comments for people with more experience of the box and/or gearboxes in general (not my strong point!).
Edited by RobM77 on Thursday 3rd December 09:59
Guvernator said:
I have to say it's always one of the biggest factors that have put me off the AMG cars. It's fine in an S or even E class but if I'm after a small performance saloon, the last thing I want is to be saddled with an auto box. Apart from that, the rest of the car is very good IMO.
I know we're in a minority, but I've met several people who say the same. I'm a bit of a fan of the SLK55 AMG, and have driven several. The Boxster should be a better driver's car, but you get lumbered with a horrible driving position (for my build anyway), a DBW throttle lag and the weird non-linear steering rack, which completely put me off. The SLK's driving position almost wins it for me straight away, it's the best in any road car I've tried. Oh, and that engine note!! The auto box totally puts me off though, and my wife feels even more strongly about autos. Interestingly, a friend of mine from PH (Waremark) had a DCT M3, which is a fantastic box, but for his next car he made a deliberate point of going for a standard three pedal manual, which I think speaks volumes.RobM77 said:
(...) it's not a slush box either in that it doesn't use a torque converter.
(...)
http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review/mercedes-benz/...
Correct. And that autocar review is quite interesting. Still awaiting ORD's explanation and comments on his personal experience with this awful gearbox.(...)
http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review/mercedes-benz/...
Edited by RobM77 on Thursday 3rd December 09:59
RobM77 said:
yes: I know we're in a minority, but I've met several people who say the same. I'm a bit of a fan of the SLK55 AMG, and have driven several. The Boxster should be a better driver's car, but you get lumbered with a horrible driving position (for my build anyway), a DBW throttle lag and the weird non-linear steering rack, which completely put me off. The SLK's driving position almost wins it for me straight away, it's the best in any road car I've tried. Oh, and that engine note!! The auto box totally puts me off though, and my wife feels even more strongly about autos. Interestingly, a friend of mine from PH (Waremark) had a DCT M3, which is a fantastic box, but for his next car he made a deliberate point of going for a standard three pedal manual, which I think speaks volumes.
In a similar vein I love the R230 SL and have very nearly purchased one on several occasions, brilliant to look at, LOVELY engine and it sounds like an angry god but the gearbox has put me off each and every time I've come close. My current car has a very competent DCT box, it's brilliant for day-to-day stuff. It's so good I can't tell when it's changed gear, it's probably the most technically competent gearbox I've ever had, it's also boring as f*ck. Zero interaction, even using the paddles doesn't really change anything as it's too smooth and clicking a button to change gear gives you no sense of interaction. If I did 20,000 miles a year stuck in traffic I can absolutely see the sense but I don't so when I get in a car, even if it's the family wagon, I want to actually drive it. My next car will have 3 pedals.
Guvernator said:
My current car has a very competent DCT box, it's brilliant for day-to-day stuff. It's so good I can't tell when it's changed gear, it's probably the most technically competent gearbox I've ever had, it's also boring as f*ck. Zero interaction, even using the paddles doesn't really change anything as it's too smooth and clicking a button to change gear gives you no sense of interaction. If I did 20,000 miles a year stuck in traffic I can absolutely see the sense but I don't so when I get in a car, even if it's the family wagon, I want to actually drive it. My next car will have 3 pedals.
Appreciate the DCT is quicker and has very rapid shifts though but the gearbox can be troublesome and it just lacks any interaction compared to a proper manual.
cerb4.5lee said:
Guvernator said:
My current car has a very competent DCT box, it's brilliant for day-to-day stuff. It's so good I can't tell when it's changed gear, it's probably the most technically competent gearbox I've ever had, it's also boring as f*ck. Zero interaction, even using the paddles doesn't really change anything as it's too smooth and clicking a button to change gear gives you no sense of interaction. If I did 20,000 miles a year stuck in traffic I can absolutely see the sense but I don't so when I get in a car, even if it's the family wagon, I want to actually drive it. My next car will have 3 pedals.
Appreciate the DCT is quicker and has very rapid shifts though but the gearbox can be troublesome and it just lacks any interaction compared to a proper manual.
All this transmission stuff depends a lot on what someone wants the car for.
If you're single or without any serious family and you go horsing about everywhere then this single-minded manual gearbox thing adds up. And it's your only car. If you fit that profile though quite why you'd buy a saloon instead of sports-car shaped car is unclear though. That's probably why so few are actually sold as manuals.
High performance manuals are great fun. For the driver. For wife and children, or even a colleague, getting their heads wanged against the headrest as you slam it through the gears wears thin pretty quickly. On the basis that the whole idea of a performance saloon is a compromise whereby someone needs a 4-door with 5 seats but doesn't want the exceedingly poor performance of a 2-point-whatever 4-banger diesel, the automated gearboxes make a far more flexible package.
Would I want an automatic Cerbera? No. Would I want a manual XFR-S? No. Why not? Because whilst I enjoy driving a lot, there is infact slightly more to my life than just driving fast on my own, as is the case for most people who end up buying fast saloon cars.
Fast saloons are comfy cruisers that are capable of going fast if you want to.
If you think they're engaging sports cars that can carry 5 people, you're barking up the wrong tree.
Most people don't buy automated gearbox fast saloons because they're all stupid. Let's be honest, they make enough money to access expensive cars in the first place which is more than you can say for most on here. Maybe, just maybe, they buy automated gearboxes in fast saloons because the gearbox suits the overall package better? Just a thought...
If you're single or without any serious family and you go horsing about everywhere then this single-minded manual gearbox thing adds up. And it's your only car. If you fit that profile though quite why you'd buy a saloon instead of sports-car shaped car is unclear though. That's probably why so few are actually sold as manuals.
High performance manuals are great fun. For the driver. For wife and children, or even a colleague, getting their heads wanged against the headrest as you slam it through the gears wears thin pretty quickly. On the basis that the whole idea of a performance saloon is a compromise whereby someone needs a 4-door with 5 seats but doesn't want the exceedingly poor performance of a 2-point-whatever 4-banger diesel, the automated gearboxes make a far more flexible package.
Would I want an automatic Cerbera? No. Would I want a manual XFR-S? No. Why not? Because whilst I enjoy driving a lot, there is infact slightly more to my life than just driving fast on my own, as is the case for most people who end up buying fast saloon cars.
Fast saloons are comfy cruisers that are capable of going fast if you want to.
If you think they're engaging sports cars that can carry 5 people, you're barking up the wrong tree.
Most people don't buy automated gearbox fast saloons because they're all stupid. Let's be honest, they make enough money to access expensive cars in the first place which is more than you can say for most on here. Maybe, just maybe, they buy automated gearboxes in fast saloons because the gearbox suits the overall package better? Just a thought...
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