B7 RS4 vs. E90 M3 vs. C63 AMG
Discussion
jamieduff1981 said:
All this transmission stuff depends a lot on what someone wants the car for.
If you're single or without any serious family and you go horsing about everywhere then this single-minded manual gearbox thing adds up. And it's your only car. If you fit that profile though quite why you'd buy a saloon instead of sports-car shaped car is unclear though. That's probably why so few are actually sold as manuals.
High performance manuals are great fun. For the driver. For wife and children, or even a colleague, getting their heads wanged against the headrest as you slam it through the gears wears thin pretty quickly. On the basis that the whole idea of a performance saloon is a compromise whereby someone needs a 4-door with 5 seats but doesn't want the exceedingly poor performance of a 2-point-whatever 4-banger diesel, the automated gearboxes make a far more flexible package.
Would I want an automatic Cerbera? No. Would I want a manual XFR-S? No. Why not? Because whilst I enjoy driving a lot, there is infact slightly more to my life than just driving fast on my own, as is the case for most people who end up buying fast saloon cars.
Fast saloons are comfy cruisers that are capable of going fast if you want to.
If you think they're engaging sports cars that can carry 5 people, you're barking up the wrong tree.
Most people don't buy automated gearbox fast saloons because they're all stupid. Let's be honest, they make enough money to access expensive cars in the first place which is more than you can say for most on here. Maybe, just maybe, they buy automated gearboxes in fast saloons because the gearbox suits the overall package better? Just a thought...
Agree entirely. These are all fat, utilitarian road cars on steriods, and there is really nothing to complain about where the transmissions are concerned. All will outshift a human, all are efficient, none have the interaction of a true manual.If you're single or without any serious family and you go horsing about everywhere then this single-minded manual gearbox thing adds up. And it's your only car. If you fit that profile though quite why you'd buy a saloon instead of sports-car shaped car is unclear though. That's probably why so few are actually sold as manuals.
High performance manuals are great fun. For the driver. For wife and children, or even a colleague, getting their heads wanged against the headrest as you slam it through the gears wears thin pretty quickly. On the basis that the whole idea of a performance saloon is a compromise whereby someone needs a 4-door with 5 seats but doesn't want the exceedingly poor performance of a 2-point-whatever 4-banger diesel, the automated gearboxes make a far more flexible package.
Would I want an automatic Cerbera? No. Would I want a manual XFR-S? No. Why not? Because whilst I enjoy driving a lot, there is infact slightly more to my life than just driving fast on my own, as is the case for most people who end up buying fast saloon cars.
Fast saloons are comfy cruisers that are capable of going fast if you want to.
If you think they're engaging sports cars that can carry 5 people, you're barking up the wrong tree.
Most people don't buy automated gearbox fast saloons because they're all stupid. Let's be honest, they make enough money to access expensive cars in the first place which is more than you can say for most on here. Maybe, just maybe, they buy automated gearboxes in fast saloons because the gearbox suits the overall package better? Just a thought...
I've had two e92 M3s. The first was manual and the second was DCT. Aside from the 3rd gear trick in the manual (where, if memory serves, it'll do anything between 10mph and 110mph if you leave your foot in) the DCT suited the engine much better, IMHO. It's all just personal preference though.
I took a couple of B7 RS4s for testdrives but just didn't find them to be anywhere near as dynamically engaging to drive as the M3. And the bork risk is in a different class.
The C63 remains on the "itch that needs scratching" list. I'd want one with an LSD and the later gearbox. They're a fine looking car and the practicality of an estate would be useful now we've got a baby to cart about.
I took a couple of B7 RS4s for testdrives but just didn't find them to be anywhere near as dynamically engaging to drive as the M3. And the bork risk is in a different class.
The C63 remains on the "itch that needs scratching" list. I'd want one with an LSD and the later gearbox. They're a fine looking car and the practicality of an estate would be useful now we've got a baby to cart about.
jamieduff1981 said:
All this transmission stuff depends a lot on what someone wants the car for.
If you're single or without any serious family and you go horsing about everywhere then this single-minded manual gearbox thing adds up. And it's your only car. If you fit that profile though quite why you'd buy a saloon instead of sports-car shaped car is unclear though. That's probably why so few are actually sold as manuals.
High performance manuals are great fun. For the driver. For wife and children, or even a colleague, getting their heads wanged against the headrest as you slam it through the gears wears thin pretty quickly. On the basis that the whole idea of a performance saloon is a compromise whereby someone needs a 4-door with 5 seats but doesn't want the exceedingly poor performance of a 2-point-whatever 4-banger diesel, the automated gearboxes make a far more flexible package.
Would I want an automatic Cerbera? No. Would I want a manual XFR-S? No. Why not? Because whilst I enjoy driving a lot, there is infact slightly more to my life than just driving fast on my own, as is the case for most people who end up buying fast saloon cars.
Fast saloons are comfy cruisers that are capable of going fast if you want to.
If you think they're engaging sports cars that can carry 5 people, you're barking up the wrong tree.
Most people don't buy automated gearbox fast saloons because they're all stupid. Let's be honest, they make enough money to access expensive cars in the first place which is more than you can say for most on here. Maybe, just maybe, they buy automated gearboxes in fast saloons because the gearbox suits the overall package better? Just a thought...
Fair points all.....but I'm a family man who spends 90% of the time in the car with his family doing 30mph and I still want a manual. Why? The idea that just because it's a manual, I'd be redlining it and bouncing my loved ones off the windows is a bit silly, anyone with a modicum of driving competence and restraint can drive one as smoothly as an auto. However on those rare times when you are on your own, you can actually enjoy the process of driving rather than have the car do it for you.If you're single or without any serious family and you go horsing about everywhere then this single-minded manual gearbox thing adds up. And it's your only car. If you fit that profile though quite why you'd buy a saloon instead of sports-car shaped car is unclear though. That's probably why so few are actually sold as manuals.
High performance manuals are great fun. For the driver. For wife and children, or even a colleague, getting their heads wanged against the headrest as you slam it through the gears wears thin pretty quickly. On the basis that the whole idea of a performance saloon is a compromise whereby someone needs a 4-door with 5 seats but doesn't want the exceedingly poor performance of a 2-point-whatever 4-banger diesel, the automated gearboxes make a far more flexible package.
Would I want an automatic Cerbera? No. Would I want a manual XFR-S? No. Why not? Because whilst I enjoy driving a lot, there is infact slightly more to my life than just driving fast on my own, as is the case for most people who end up buying fast saloon cars.
Fast saloons are comfy cruisers that are capable of going fast if you want to.
If you think they're engaging sports cars that can carry 5 people, you're barking up the wrong tree.
Most people don't buy automated gearbox fast saloons because they're all stupid. Let's be honest, they make enough money to access expensive cars in the first place which is more than you can say for most on here. Maybe, just maybe, they buy automated gearboxes in fast saloons because the gearbox suits the overall package better? Just a thought...
walm said:
jamieduff1981 said:
High performance manuals are great fun. For the driver. For wife and children, or even a colleague, getting their heads wanged against the headrest as you slam it through the gears wears thin pretty quickly.
You know, it is possible to drive a manual smoothly.Doing it in a manual means acceleration - coast - acceleration - coast - acceleration. If you're accelerating briskly, the sudden lack of acceleration when you dip the clutch pedal is stark for the passengers not holding on to a steering wheel, and the reapplication of power is just as stark. It's uncomfortable and likely to result in adverse comments from wife, sickly children or silent judging from a colleague that you drive like a f
king nutter.The alternative is to back off the power leading for a gearchange giving more sinusoidal torque which is motion-sickness inducing and slow.
Or you can just drive slowly.
I'm not an idiot here. I get that manuals are more engaging. What I'm saying is that flappy paddle autos suit performance saloons better than 3-pedal manuals do for the usage that the vast majority of real customers want these cars for - me included. I have a better car for engagement on my own.
The whole point of performance saloons is being able to go quite quick with the passengers onboard without them all spewing up the windows.
ManOpener said:
jamieduff1981 said:
Not when driving quickly it isn't; not for passengers.
It's perfectly possible to drive quickly and change gears smoothly. I have no idea why someone would think it wasn't.But if you are red-lining it through every gear then your colleague is going to think you are a nutter no matter what!
I think under Jamie's definition I just drive "slowly" when I have other people in the car, and indeed sometimes when I am on my own!
ManOpener said:
jamieduff1981 said:
Not when driving quickly it isn't; not for passengers.
It's perfectly possible to drive quickly and change gears smoothly. I have no idea why someone would think it wasn't.We all think our own driving is smooth when sat in the driving seat. Not many PHers seem to have good things to say about their experiences in the passenger seat.
Again, this boils down to what people think these cars are for. They're not sports cars. They're family cars that can go fast.
jamieduff1981 said:
The whole point of performance saloons is being able to go quite quick with the passengers onboard without them all spewing up the windows.
Again I'd disagree with that statement, that isn't the WHOLE point of a performance saloon. Yes it's one possible use but another is that it allows an enthusiastic driver with a family to have their cake and eat it. Drive like you are taking Miss Daisy to church when the family are in the car and then let the car and yourself off the leash when you are on your own. At least this is the scenario I always envisage when I think about these try-to-do-it all performance saloons. I don't know any family man who'd want to drive quickly to the point of making passengers uncomfortable with their family in the car.
walm said:
ManOpener said:
jamieduff1981 said:
Not when driving quickly it isn't; not for passengers.
It's perfectly possible to drive quickly and change gears smoothly. I have no idea why someone would think it wasn't.But if you are red-lining it through every gear then your colleague is going to think you are a nutter no matter what!
I think under Jamie's definition I just drive "slowly" when I have other people in the car, and indeed sometimes when I am on my own!
I generally accelerate "strongly" but it would probably be something like high-5s to sixty or thereabouts. The foot would be near the floor in a typical 6-pot diesel equivalent but in 550ps V8 it's 4000rpm gearchanges and passengers don't bat an eyelid.
In an E46 330Ci a similar performance with a manual would be noticeable by passengers (as in, I was told to calm down). Do it in a 3.0 X-Type manual (0-62 in 6.6secs) and SWMBO complains. Walk past most other aggressive Aberdonians in auto XFR-S and it goes un-noticed. Foot to the floor would mean crabbing along sideways leaving number 11s and a big cloud of acrid smoke which is d
headish - but you can drive fairly quickly and make good progress in an inconspicuous manner. 
Guvernator said:
jamieduff1981 said:
The whole point of performance saloons is being able to go quite quick with the passengers onboard without them all spewing up the windows.
Again I'd disagree with that statement, that isn't the WHOLE point of a performance saloon. Yes it's one possible use but another is that it allows an enthusiastic driver with a family to have their cake and eat it. Drive like you are taking Miss Daisy to church when the family are in the car and then let the car and yourself off the leash when you are on your own. At least this is the scenario I always envisage when I think about these try-to-do-it all performance saloons. I don't know any family man who'd want to drive quickly to the point of making passengers uncomfortable with their family in the car.
Like anything it's just a big Venn diagram of attributes. By adding 50~75% more money over the cooking version of the same saloon you can buy more surface area to colour in, but you simply can't max out on comfort and excitement at the same time. They're conflicting requirements.
For most people who actually buy these cars the incremental improvement on engagement from speccing the 3-pedal manual (and it'll still fall far short of a proper sports car in that department) comes at too great a penalty in the other characteristics this sort of car needs to have. Anyone who thinks it's simply because people with these disposable incomes are very easily persuaded by some sleaze in a cheap suit is mistaken and suffers from believing their personal set of requirements and weightings thereof is the only logical set.
If you absolutely *must* have a manual in a performance saloon then fine. BMW M3 is the one for you. BMW don't sell many of them. They sell hardly any M3s compared to other models in the 3-series range as it is, and manual buyers are a minority within the minority. Mercedes and Jaguar don't believe the minority within the minority is worth even bothering with and they're probably right because the sorts who can't see past manuals are unlikely to seriously consider an "old man" brand's model anyway. How they actually drive is not that important if there are widely held preconceived ideas out there already.
As much as I hate autos and love manuals (purely for the interaction, I don't pretend they're faster, although they are substantially lighter), I think Jamie's talking a lot of sense and his arguments are not only solid, but I'd guess are exactly what the manufacturers think. The only thing I would add is that the sort of customer he's describing who would go for a manual gearbox is also far more likely to do the two car solution with a cheaper saloon, therefore cutting down the number of buyers who demand manual boxes even further.
I perfectly understand why manufacturers do it, for the vast majority of punters, an auto\dct (I see them as pretty much the same thing) is the perfect solution. However as an enthusiast driver I can't help but lament the fact that less and less manufacturers are willing to cater to us.
If I was a CEO of a large company, I'd insist there was a manual option for the hardcore fans which would do more for positive PR then the cost to produce them. Look how much press a car gets nowadays when it does offer a manual option. Sometimes the accountants with their raw figures on a spreadsheet aren't always right.
If I was a CEO of a large company, I'd insist there was a manual option for the hardcore fans which would do more for positive PR then the cost to produce them. Look how much press a car gets nowadays when it does offer a manual option. Sometimes the accountants with their raw figures on a spreadsheet aren't always right.
RobM77 said:
I think Jamie's talking a lot of sense and his arguments are not only solid, but I'd guess are exactly what the manufacturers think.
I have enjoyed reading the last few posts and I do love a three pedal manual(over any other transmission) but I also get that an auto/twin clutch is the most preferred way by some margin in a performance car of any sort by almost all punters.
There are a few of us who are happy to have a three pedal manual in any car and regardless of what its job is but for the majority a two pedal car is just a no brainer as in theory it offers the best of both.
Guvernator said:
I perfectly understand why manufacturers do it, for the vast majority of punters, an auto\dct (I see them as pretty much the same thing) is the perfect solution. However as an enthusiast driver I can't help but lament the fact that less and less manufacturers are willing to cater to us.
This is how I feel too. cerb4.5lee said:
I have enjoyed reading the last few posts and I do love a three pedal manual(over any other transmission) but I also get that an auto/twin clutch is the most preferred way by some margin in a performance car of any sort by almost all punters.
I have flip-flopped on this too. Jamie is right about your average punter.While the accountants might not always be right, I think the evidence of the B7 to B8 transition (manual only to auto only) is proof enough of the prevailing wind in this regard.
Guvernator said:
I perfectly understand why manufacturers do it, for the vast majority of punters, an auto\dct (I see them as pretty much the same thing) is the perfect solution. However as an enthusiast driver I can't help but lament the fact that less and less manufacturers are willing to cater to us.
If I was a CEO of a large company, I'd insist there was a manual option for the hardcore fans which would do more for positive PR then the cost to produce them. Look how much press a car gets nowadays when it does offer a manual option. Sometimes the accountants with their raw figures on a spreadsheet aren't always right.
Are people outside of our closed circle of car geeks aware that the Cayman GT4 is a manual, or even that the Carrera GT was? I doubt it, it's more the overall stance of the model that they're aware of.If I was a CEO of a large company, I'd insist there was a manual option for the hardcore fans which would do more for positive PR then the cost to produce them. Look how much press a car gets nowadays when it does offer a manual option. Sometimes the accountants with their raw figures on a spreadsheet aren't always right.
jamieduff1981 said:
Quite so. I've rarely got enough traction to red line it anyway. July/August is about my lot.
I generally accelerate "strongly" but it would probably be something like high-5s to sixty or thereabouts. The foot would be near the floor in a typical 6-pot diesel equivalent but in 550ps V8 it's 4000rpm gearchanges and passengers don't bat an eyelid.
In an E46 330Ci a similar performance with a manual would be noticeable by passengers (as in, I was told to calm down). Do it in a 3.0 X-Type manual (0-62 in 6.6secs) and SWMBO complains. Walk past most other aggressive Aberdonians in auto XFR-S and it goes un-noticed. Foot to the floor would mean crabbing along sideways leaving number 11s and a big cloud of acrid smoke which is dheadish - but you can drive fairly quickly and make good progress in an inconspicuous manner.
Element of truth there.I generally accelerate "strongly" but it would probably be something like high-5s to sixty or thereabouts. The foot would be near the floor in a typical 6-pot diesel equivalent but in 550ps V8 it's 4000rpm gearchanges and passengers don't bat an eyelid.
In an E46 330Ci a similar performance with a manual would be noticeable by passengers (as in, I was told to calm down). Do it in a 3.0 X-Type manual (0-62 in 6.6secs) and SWMBO complains. Walk past most other aggressive Aberdonians in auto XFR-S and it goes un-noticed. Foot to the floor would mean crabbing along sideways leaving number 11s and a big cloud of acrid smoke which is d
headish - but you can drive fairly quickly and make good progress in an inconspicuous manner. I can pretty much nail my car (400bhp auto) away from a roundabout/lights and not get any comment from the rev limiter or our 6yr old.
Do it in the Mini (125bhp manual) and I get told to 'calm down Senna'.
Christ, not this diesel talk again! If OP has a shortlist of cars, why even bother suggesting something that doesn't fit the criteria as mentioned? Power and torque figures don't make for an enjoyable experience alone, a 335d with a remap is a long way from an M3 when you're hooning on a back road wanting to put a smile on your face.
Surprised xjay1337 didn't recommend a 2.0tdi scirocco again, in a previous thread it was claimed to be quicker than an rs4 because comparing it's acceleration times to an rs4 acceleration video said so.
Now back on topic to answer the OP, as above, have a drive in all of them and see how you feel! For me it'd be the C63, just a hooligan machine. As you said the M3 is definitely the sharper tool but is most enjoyable on the limit, RS4 is the safe choice (excluding bork) and the C63 is just silly
Surprised xjay1337 didn't recommend a 2.0tdi scirocco again, in a previous thread it was claimed to be quicker than an rs4 because comparing it's acceleration times to an rs4 acceleration video said so.
Now back on topic to answer the OP, as above, have a drive in all of them and see how you feel! For me it'd be the C63, just a hooligan machine. As you said the M3 is definitely the sharper tool but is most enjoyable on the limit, RS4 is the safe choice (excluding bork) and the C63 is just silly
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff