New Fiesta is a bit scary in slippery and wet conditions
Discussion
My work vehicle is a 2015 Fiesta Van with the 1.5 diesel. It's a bit more nose heavy than the normal hatchbacks as there's a great big iron lump under the bonnet but no back seats to counterbalance.
It runs the 15 inch steel wheels and high profile tyres, but I think it's a great little car. The only time the handling has been upset is at my regular junction off the motorway - they are in the middle of major roadworks at the moment and have left a ramp in the tar midway round the roundabout. Hitting this at normal speeds (20-25mph, it's a large radius roundabout), does cause an unusual pitch/wallow but everywhere else it's good enough for what it is.
It runs the 15 inch steel wheels and high profile tyres, but I think it's a great little car. The only time the handling has been upset is at my regular junction off the motorway - they are in the middle of major roadworks at the moment and have left a ramp in the tar midway round the roundabout. Hitting this at normal speeds (20-25mph, it's a large radius roundabout), does cause an unusual pitch/wallow but everywhere else it's good enough for what it is.
One of the bif advantages for us "driving enthusiasts" is that since Stability Control became standard fit, the chassis engineers can put back in some of that "bite" and "fun" that they used to take out (because there was no safety net for the average driver).
Back in the day, hot hatches fell into two camps:
1) French: Oversteer at all opportunities. Natural Habitat: Backwards in hedge/ditch/field (delete as appropriate)
2) Everything Else: Resolute dull understeer at all times. Natural Habitat: Shunted Up a kerb on a slippy roundabout due to gross push on
These days, we can have a fun car to drive for those that can, and still have a safe one for those (the vast majority) that don't.
Back in the day, hot hatches fell into two camps:
1) French: Oversteer at all opportunities. Natural Habitat: Backwards in hedge/ditch/field (delete as appropriate)
2) Everything Else: Resolute dull understeer at all times. Natural Habitat: Shunted Up a kerb on a slippy roundabout due to gross push on
These days, we can have a fun car to drive for those that can, and still have a safe one for those (the vast majority) that don't.
Also worth noting, that soggy old hectors of cars, like the OP Mates one, tend to result in drivers who are scrappy, sudden and often poorly controlled in their inputs. With low rate steering, and a chassis set to understeer, they get used to "wanging" in loads of lock, or being clumsy with the clutch or how they lift off. Put them in a modern car, with a much higher handwheel rate, and sharper controls and until they learn they tend to drive in a very frantic manner. (lots of sharp, small inputs and a marked lack of smoothness, which upsets the chassis)
Thanks for the replies guys. It's only a Zetec Ecoboost so he wasn't expecting a hot hatch. Handling is sharp, but hit a significant bump or camber and it will get bounced around a lot. As this is the company that has made some of my favourite handling cars, I'm a bit surprised.
The gear ratios are way too long for driving at anything other than a cruise on a dead level road, otherwise the engine labours easily. You can tell it's a 1.0 with long gearing, and I'd probably buy a 1.2 Mk2 Swift instead.
The gear ratios are way too long for driving at anything other than a cruise on a dead level road, otherwise the engine labours easily. You can tell it's a 1.0 with long gearing, and I'd probably buy a 1.2 Mk2 Swift instead.
Max_Torque said:
Also worth noting, that soggy old hectors of cars, like the OP Mates one, tend to result in drivers who are scrappy, sudden and often poorly controlled in their inputs. With low rate steering, and a chassis set to understeer, they get used to "wanging" in loads of lock, or being clumsy with the clutch or how they lift off. Put them in a modern car, with a much higher handwheel rate, and sharper controls and until they learn they tend to drive in a very frantic manner. (lots of sharp, small inputs and a marked lack of smoothness, which upsets the chassis)
Honestly he's not a bad driver, and I've been a passenger with him many times. I think it's partly that all the driver controls and chassis are far sharper than he's used to. Obviously you need to respect slippery road conditions as well.Max_Torque said:
One of the bif advantages for us "driving enthusiasts" is that since Stability Control became standard fit, the chassis engineers can put back in some of that "bite" and "fun" that they used to take out (because there was no safety net for the average driver).
Back in the day, hot hatches fell into two camps:
1) French: Oversteer at all opportunities. Natural Habitat: Backwards in hedge/ditch/field (delete as appropriate)
2) Everything Else: Resolute dull understeer at all times. Natural Habitat: Shunted Up a kerb on a slippy roundabout due to gross push on
These days, we can have a fun car to drive for those that can, and still have a safe one for those (the vast majority) that don't.
The weirdest part was him telling me he got lift off oversteer un-expectedly. He isn't Ragnotti, so he would never provoke it to do that.Back in the day, hot hatches fell into two camps:
1) French: Oversteer at all opportunities. Natural Habitat: Backwards in hedge/ditch/field (delete as appropriate)
2) Everything Else: Resolute dull understeer at all times. Natural Habitat: Shunted Up a kerb on a slippy roundabout due to gross push on
These days, we can have a fun car to drive for those that can, and still have a safe one for those (the vast majority) that don't.
Max_Torque said:
Also worth noting, that soggy old hectors of cars, like the OP Mates one, tend to result in drivers who are scrappy, sudden and often poorly controlled in their inputs. With low rate steering, and a chassis set to understeer, they get used to "wanging" in loads of lock, or being clumsy with the clutch or how they lift off. Put them in a modern car, with a much higher handwheel rate, and sharper controls and until they learn they tend to drive in a very frantic manner. (lots of sharp, small inputs and a marked lack of smoothness, which upsets the chassis)
I think manufacturers make their cars "pointy" on initial turn-in to provide a sense of "sportiness", but are often a bit too firmly sprung/damped for bumps in bends as a result.I would suggest that the vast majority of drivers make sharp inputs and never really learn not to, the "sharpness" of the car givIng a false sense of being close to the limit. The subsequent lifting off sharply contributing further to the sensation.
Only a small majority, the "naturally-gifted" or people who have spent a lot of time trying to be smooth, drive around keeping the car settled and using only minimal inputs -the things that give me the most satisfaction from driving these days, not only when getting a move on.
I'l admit I that In the old days it was all about stomping on the loud pedal & brakes and yanking on the wheel
iloveboost said:
The weirdest part was him telling me he got lift off oversteer un-expectedly. He isn't Ragnotti, so he would never provoke it to do that.
Did he actually get lift off oversteer, or is he just not used to the way the Fiesta will tuck it's nose in and lift and a rear wheel when you're really pressing on. Perhaps he just needs to get used to it and trust that the car is actually working with him rather than against him.OP, I suggest your friend never tries a TVR, or any other engaging sort of sporty car that doesn't drive itself.
He sounds like a stereotypical fast Audi driver tbh - expecting the car to mitigate all driver shortcomings and hide all features and feelings of the road from them in the process.
He sounds like a stereotypical fast Audi driver tbh - expecting the car to mitigate all driver shortcomings and hide all features and feelings of the road from them in the process.
IanCress said:
Did he actually get lift off oversteer, or is he just not used to the way the Fiesta will tuck it's nose in and lift and a rear wheel when you're really pressing on. Perhaps he just needs to get used to it and trust that the car is actually working with him rather than against him.
To me, that sounds goodI don't really understand some of this to be honest!
The 1.0 doesn't labour easily but it does drone at <1500 and it is a touch annoying. The engine is totally off boost here and you see the worst characteristics of a tiny 3cyl for sure. In-gear acceleration once you hit 1800 and the turbo is spooled is superb for the class of car especially if you're on overboost and in 3rd (1st and 2nd are actually torque limited).
In terms of the chassis and balance in the wet there is a tad more understeer but nothing unexpected given the change to road surface. You can still pitch it in and it'll stick nicely but you have to encourage the rear to follow you into the turn. Speaking of which it doesn't really have any lift-off oversteer to speak of and imagine you would have to work very hard with TC/ESP off to trigger it. It cocks its leg like all good hot hatches which I suppose could be an odd sensation if you haven't seen it being driven hard from the outside.
Steering is I guess the final concern you raised but I don't follow this. The feedback is fantastic and you actually get a sense of what is going on rather than feeling Audi-like. It's not skittish but if you're used to driving a Peugeot then this will come as a shock as it's a little like a throwback and I guess a lot of people are used to very light and artificial controls because that's by and large what car makers are churning out. It has been criticised for this though in print for sure.
I haven't back to backed my car with the ST but the smaller 1.0 cars like mine are more compliant but still firm like a lot of modern stuff. I initially thought this was because my 140 is lower profiled than say the Titanium 125s but I drove one of those on hire and it wasn't much different to say it had a fair whack more sidewall.
The 1.0 doesn't labour easily but it does drone at <1500 and it is a touch annoying. The engine is totally off boost here and you see the worst characteristics of a tiny 3cyl for sure. In-gear acceleration once you hit 1800 and the turbo is spooled is superb for the class of car especially if you're on overboost and in 3rd (1st and 2nd are actually torque limited).
In terms of the chassis and balance in the wet there is a tad more understeer but nothing unexpected given the change to road surface. You can still pitch it in and it'll stick nicely but you have to encourage the rear to follow you into the turn. Speaking of which it doesn't really have any lift-off oversteer to speak of and imagine you would have to work very hard with TC/ESP off to trigger it. It cocks its leg like all good hot hatches which I suppose could be an odd sensation if you haven't seen it being driven hard from the outside.
Steering is I guess the final concern you raised but I don't follow this. The feedback is fantastic and you actually get a sense of what is going on rather than feeling Audi-like. It's not skittish but if you're used to driving a Peugeot then this will come as a shock as it's a little like a throwback and I guess a lot of people are used to very light and artificial controls because that's by and large what car makers are churning out. It has been criticised for this though in print for sure.
I haven't back to backed my car with the ST but the smaller 1.0 cars like mine are more compliant but still firm like a lot of modern stuff. I initially thought this was because my 140 is lower profiled than say the Titanium 125s but I drove one of those on hire and it wasn't much different to say it had a fair whack more sidewall.
If it's the ST tell him to get a set of Uniroyal Rainsport 3's when the Bridgestons wear out and just replace the rears the same time as the front.
My ST was around 230bhp and I never found it scary to drive at all. Tell him to drive with the ESP completely off and enjoy it! I got into habit of switching the ESP off everytime I went into the car becuase there was nothing worse than deciding to go for it and the systems cut in and ruin the fun.
Failing that, and he still thinks a Fiesta is scary, then he needs to buy a VAG and put up with a much more boring drive but a lot less 'scary' as he won't experience any lift off oversteer.
My ST was around 230bhp and I never found it scary to drive at all. Tell him to drive with the ESP completely off and enjoy it! I got into habit of switching the ESP off everytime I went into the car becuase there was nothing worse than deciding to go for it and the systems cut in and ruin the fun.
Failing that, and he still thinks a Fiesta is scary, then he needs to buy a VAG and put up with a much more boring drive but a lot less 'scary' as he won't experience any lift off oversteer.
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