VW group 2.0 T FSi engine thoughts?

[Zippee]

Hi all – just after thoughts and opinions on the 2.0 Tsfi engine? I’ve heard mixed reports of reliability and wanted to check how true these are? Are they niggles or potentially catastrophic issues?
Specifically I’m enquiring on a 2010 Octavia Vrs though it’s obviously the same engine as in the mk5 Golf Gti from a couple of years previous.

[bigvanfan]

I think that's about it really , some seem fine some aren't.
Mine has done 157k quite happily but the vw specialist that done my cambelt says most are poor .
They have a few issues like most engines but seem long lasting if looked after.

[kambites]

Like just about all engines they have their problems but the huge majority of examples are fine. They seem to all (or at least most) use oil to some extent but it's only a problem on a very small proportion of them.

[Hub]

There are different versions - different power and torque outputs, and for example the facelift Octavia had a chain driven engine (with a few going pop) whereas the pre facelift was belt driven. They all can use quite a lot of oil!

[aka_kerrly]

Some of the early 2005-2008 era TFSI used a bit more oil than most people were expecting. It hit the news via Watchdog and VAG claim to have dealt with it.

https://www.audi.co.uk/about-audi/latest-news/audi...

VAG reckon 0.5L per 1000 KM is acceptable and that the issue was resolved in 2011, they "hope" that any engines which failed have been dealt with under warranty.

For reference and before people start bleating that 0.5L is horrendous, Honda allow 1.0L per 1000km.

[Zippee]

Thanks all so far. To confirm it's the mk2 vrs so has the chain driven motor rather than belt. It's also before the uprated tensioner was fitted I believe late 2010 to early 2011.

[Matthen]

currybum said:

aka_kerrly said:

VAG reckon 0.5L per 1000 KM is acceptable and that the issue was resolved in 2011, they "hope" that any engines which failed have been dealt with under warranty.

For reference and before people start bleating that 0.5L is horrendous, Honda allow 1.0L per 1000km.

Both horrendous and an indication of lazy engineering, it is possible to engineer an engine properly to use minimal oil it just take a lot of time, effort and money to get right.

Or you could just chuck a bottle of oil in the boot and tell the customer that its normal.

And we wonder why Hondas F1 engine is so poor.

[kambites]

currybum said:

Both horrendous and an indication of lazy engineering.

There's nothing inherently wrong with "lazy engineering" - when you design a car (or indeed anything else) there's a serious of requirements that have to be met; if you set out to make a car "perfect" it'd end up twenty years out of date by the time it was released and costing millions per unit to make. Yes, requiring oil between routine services is a bit shoddy but I'd rather have to put half a litre of oil in every six months than pay a grand extra for the car in the first place.

[bungz]

I do feel a prerequisite of modern engine design would be to make an engine that didn't get through 10 liters of oil between services.

Wouldn't touch one personally!

[SuperchargedVR6]

Zippee said:

Thanks all so far. To confirm it's the mk2 vrs so has the chain driven motor rather than belt. It's also before the uprated tensioner was fitted I believe late 2010 to early 2011.

That's the EA888 engine, aka TSI. The older cam belt engine is the EA113, aka TFSI.

The only weakness of the EA888 is timing chain stretch, but you'll know when it gets so bad it needs immediate attention because the engine won't even start. The cam and crank sensors can no longer synchronise with each other, so quite a good failsafe 'feature', rather than continuing to run and risk physical carnage.

EA888 switched to a roller for the fuel pump cam follower, so no worries about tappets wearing through, as per EA113.

Oil consumption is less on the EA888 due to improved pistons / rings.

[SuperchargedVR6]

currybum said:

aka_kerrly said:

VAG reckon 0.5L per 1000 KM is acceptable and that the issue was resolved in 2011, they "hope" that any engines which failed have been dealt with under warranty.

For reference and before people start bleating that 0.5L is horrendous, Honda allow 1.0L per 1000km.

Both horrendous and an indication of lazy engineering, it is possible to engineer an engine properly to use minimal oil it just take a lot of time, effort and money to get right.

Or you could just chuck a bottle of oil in the boot and tell the customer that its normal.

VAG's stance is 1L per 1000KM being within tolerance and is the same for many other manufacturers too. It's just a way of keeping people out of dealers whinging about it every day. It's worst case. Engines that actually use THAT much are few and far between and just over-hyped on forums.

[Rude-boy]

SuperchargedVR6 said:

VAG's stance is 1L per 1000KM being within tolerance and is the same for many other manufacturers too. It's just a way of keeping people out of dealers whinging about it every day. It's worst case. Engines that actually use THAT much are few and far between and just over-hyped on forums.

S2K used a lot of oil, but even with well over 120k on the clock it was using under 1l/1000km

No idea what type the engine in the Golf is - 2.0 140hp GT from 2008 with a superchip that it has had on for the last 30k miles. Honestly i can't think of anything that wasn't owned by Mr Hertz that has had as harder life off me and the worst i can throw at it is a Turbo failure a few months after I bought it. It was whilst that was being rebuilt that it was chipped.

Now i have not noticed it using a drop of oil between services, yet check it about once per fortnight.

[kambites]

currybum said:

It is possible to do the oil consumption work within the standard time scale of a engine development program, but as I said it is not a straight forward bit of work can consume significant engineering resource.

Or rely on the customer to deal with the resultant consumption, while telling them its normal...its only normal if you didn't design it not to be normal.

Indeed, I was just pointing out that it's not clear to me which of those solutions is "better" for the customer. However you look at it, putting in the extra engineering effort to remove the oil consumption would, presumably, cost money and that will be reflected in the cost of the car to the consumer. For myself, I'd rather have the oil consumption than the higher price but I can fully understand why someone less... mechanically minded might be willing to pay more money up-front to avoid having to top the oil up every six months.

Swings and roundabouts, one of the first things I learned in "practical engineering" is that there's always a tradeoff between quality and price and that the "high quality" end of that tradeoff is not always best for either the company or the customer.



Lets be honest here. It's a VW engine, it's no shoddier than the engineering in the rest of the car.

Edited by kambites on Monday 7th December 16:05

[epom]

I have a 07 mk5 GTI and thankfully as of yet have had no issues with it. Yep it does like a drop of oil, more than I'd normally be used to but nothing to be considered totally out of the ordinary. As engine go, I love it.

[SuperchargedVR6]

Rude-boy said:

SuperchargedVR6 said:

VAG's stance is 1L per 1000KM being within tolerance and is the same for many other manufacturers too. It's just a way of keeping people out of dealers whinging about it every day. It's worst case. Engines that actually use THAT much are few and far between and just over-hyped on forums.

S2K used a lot of oil, but even with well over 120k on the clock it was using under 1l/1000km

No idea what type the engine in the Golf is - 2.0 140hp GT from 2008 with a superchip that it has had on for the last 30k miles. Honestly i can't think of anything that wasn't owned by Mr Hertz that has had as harder life off me and the worst i can throw at it is a Turbo failure a few months after I bought it. It was whilst that was being rebuilt that it was chipped.

Now i have not noticed it using a drop of oil between services, yet check it about once per fortnight.

Indeed, because it loves to rev I remember in the handbook of my old BMW 525i, they took the common sense approach to oil consumption - "basically, chief, the harder you drive it, the more oil it will 'use', got it?"

Thing is, pistons are not totally round when running in an engine. Not even torque plate honing at the factory can 100% guarantee perfectly round bores and pistons. And piston rings have gaps in them (unless you use 'TotalSeal' type, which is unlikely for OEMs), so it's inevitable some oil will stay in the cylinder at high rpms. Performance engines tend to have faster pistons speeds and looser tolerances, especially if forged pistons are used, so again, that scoffs oil. Horses for courses. And obviously turbo engines produce a LOT of blow-by, so some oil can end up in the engine via the PCV. If OEMs made engines with such tight tolerances as to reduce consumption to practically zero, they'd need preheating like an F1 engine before it'll start. Practical? Nope.

My own GTI uses a litre over 4000-5000 miles, so is way better than VW quote, and that's always been my findings with German cars. I've never owned one that used a litre per 1000.

I'm sure there are folk out there who use a gear or two lower than necessary, do a lot of over-run in mid gears, rev-out frequently and skip oil changes. It's these cars that will use more oil than regularly serviced or sensibly driven cars.

It's just forums who take a blanket outlook on these things. "Yeah my mate's GTI uses a litre every 10 miles, so they all do that". Bollards they do.

Edited by SuperchargedVR6 on Monday 7th December 16:35

[aka_kerrly]

SuperchargedVR6 said:

Indeed, because it loves to rev I remember in the handbook of my old BMW 525i, they took the common sense approach to oil consumption - "basically, chief, the harder you drive it, the more oil it will 'use', got it?"


It's just forums who take a blanket outlook on these things. "Yeah my mate's GTI uses a litre every 10 miles, so they all do that". Bollards they do.

bit in bold in my approach, the harder I drive the car the more frequently I check the oil & coolant as these are like blood for an engine.

Particularly good points about high compression engines (i.e performance NA an FI) losing a bit of oil out of the PCV systems, another relatively common issue on TSFI engines is them failing. It's not the end of the world, you can get a new one or bypass the system. It's not hard or expensive but a failed one can make an engine sound lumpy, have a rubbish idle and throw up EML codes.

[PK0001]

Owned a mk5 git edition 30 and now own a mk6 golf r, both have the 2 litre TSi engine in different states of tune.

Sounds Tappetty when cold and at standtstill, but very smooth and feels more than 2 litres.

Very strong engines, capable of 400bhp.

[timberman]

We have a scirocco and a Tiguan both of which use the same 2.0 tsi engine and neither have needed any oil between servicing.

The main weakness, which has already been mentioned, is the risk of the timing chain slipping and possibly causing extensive damage to the engine,
This has happened on numerous occasions and is fairly well documented on the internet across all makes and models using this engine.
The 2010/11 models seem to be affected the most and I believe the tensioner has been updated several times to try and solve the issue
Quite a few people have had the tensioner changed for the updated version for peace of mind,
and considering a new engine is going to cost upwards of £5K and Vw are very reluctant to offer any goodwill at the moment it's probably money well spent.

[Blaster72]

I have an 08' GTi and it uses a couple of litres of oil between services. As mentioned above the do sound a little diesel like when cold and idling but on the move they are a fantastic engine. Loads of low down torque, easy to tune up to 250bhp with a remap and great mid range.

I've had no issues with mine yet, at 70,000 miles I change the fuel pump cam bucket as they're a known issue but there was very little wear on it at all.

Accessory wise, the engine does suffer from coil pack failures. Get an OBDII reader and you can quickly identify which one has gone when you get a misfire under load. Seem to last about 50k or so. Also the evap emissions system is a weak point, mine needed a new charcoal cannister to sort out a persistent engine check light.

[xjay1337]

I had a TFSI MK5 GTI and put 30k on it.
Used maybe 500ml between services. Never broke down. Oil pickup got blocked though so dropped the sump and cleaned it off.
They respond very well to mapping.
A friend has a TSI engined Octavia running 440bhp.
Very very fast.