RE: BBR Super 190: Driven

[dufunk]

Impressive torque figures for N/A but lets face it these are after market mods the GT86 with manifold and remap would put out at least 220bhp even low from factory they are more like 185bhp not a great engine either tbh compared to 3SGE beams or K20.

[Jam12321]

Paul_M3 said:

I'm referring to the torque figure, which is at just over 3500rpm.

It has just over 88 lb.ft per litre. The work record for a production car was (and I assume still is) 89 lb.ft per litre from the Ferrari 458.

Even the latest 911 GT3 only makes around 85 lb.ft per litre.

Bearing in mind that Porsche and Ferrari design their engines from the outset to be high performance, doesn't it make BBRs figures for a mildly tuned 'normal' engine seem a bit suspect?

Would have thought a 'tuned' engine where there is no care for emissions is a poor comparison to an engine set up by a manufacturer to meet criteria before sale.

Has anyone got figures of a 458 or a GT3 that is mildly tuned for comparison?

[underphil]

Paul_M3 said:

I'm referring to the torque figure, which is at just over 3500rpm.

It has just over 88 lb.ft per litre. The work record for a production car was (and I assume still is) 89 lb.ft per litre from the Ferrari 458.

Even the latest 911 GT3 only makes around 85 lb.ft per litre.

Bearing in mind that Porsche and Ferrari design their engines from the outset to be high performance, doesn't it make BBRs figures for a mildly tuned 'normal' engine seem a bit suspect?

does seem high, but Cosworth's upgrade package for the GT86 produces 89 lb/ft per litre

[sixpistons]

Paul_M3 said:

I'm referring to the torque figure, which is at just over 3500rpm.

It has just over 88 lb.ft per litre. The work record for a production car was (and I assume still is) 89 lb.ft per litre from the Ferrari 458.

Even the latest 911 GT3 only makes around 85 lb.ft per litre.

Bearing in mind that Porsche and Ferrari design their engines from the outset to be high performance, doesn't it make BBRs figures for a mildly tuned 'normal' engine seem a bit suspect?

Hmm on second thoughts that does seem a bit suspect, especially compared to the engines you mentioned. If you compare it to a really well developed 2 litre such as the 263bhp Duratec in a Caterham R500, that develops 177lbft @7200 rpm, i.e. 88.5lbft/litre, and has roller barrel throttle bodies, so about the least restrictive inlet you could ever get and still only just matches the claim for the Mazda.

[NJH]

I thought properly pulse tuned inlet manifolds always produced higher cylinder filling at the specific tuned for rpm then throttle bodies.

[Tankslider]

BBR did the work on the Poppy Car - the 1.5 and the gains are impressive. Took a while, I think they made 4 manifolds in the process to get it right but the finished car is a real laugh to drive.

[TheJimi]

iguana said:

sixpistons said:

E-bmw said:

Perfectly feasible.

I went from 193 to 235 with inlet/exhaust manifold & remap.

And before you ask, yes, that is also N/A.

328i by any chance? Well known that these had a deliberately restrictive inlet manifold from a 320i to keep it in a particular german insurance group - if the engine was already in a reasonable state of tune and not strangled, as is the case in the MX5 the gain is harder to achieve. The figures do look plausible though.

If they'd claimed 100bhp per litre @ 6000rpm from an n/a engine (as certain Renault tuners have previously) the smell of bullst would be overpowering.

To detail thread even further from mx5s I've also hit the 230bhp with a 328 with the normal mods, however I've dynoed 3 high milers, all standard & on the same independent dyno as the modded car, all hit 210bhp tho, not the claimed 193 or whatever it was, so a nice 20 ish bhp gain nonetheless.

Apologies for the further de-rail, but are you guys referring to the E36 or E46?

Or are the engines the same in both?

[V8RX7]

TheJimi said:

iguana said:

sixpistons said:

E-bmw said:

Perfectly feasible.

I went from 193 to 235 with inlet/exhaust manifold & remap.

And before you ask, yes, that is also N/A.

328i by any chance? Well known that these had a deliberately restrictive inlet manifold from a 320i to keep it in a particular german insurance group - if the engine was already in a reasonable state of tune and not strangled, as is the case in the MX5 the gain is harder to achieve. The figures do look plausible though.

If they'd claimed 100bhp per litre @ 6000rpm from an n/a engine (as certain Renault tuners have previously) the smell of bullst would be overpowering.

To detail thread even further from mx5s I've also hit the 230bhp with a 328 with the normal mods, however I've dynoed 3 high milers, all standard & on the same independent dyno as the modded car, all hit 210bhp tho, not the claimed 193 or whatever it was, so a nice 20 ish bhp gain nonetheless.

Apologies for the further de-rail, but are you guys referring to the E36 or E46?

Or are the engines the same in both?

The E36 was the well known restricted 328. I'm unsure if the E46 328 is the same but if it has the same 193bhp then I'd assume so.

[jof]

I really 'get' the MX5 if you want a white goods, safe, modern, rear drive convertible that's bags of fun to drive.

But do I struggle with the never ending need to spend x thousands pounds to make a brand new one a bit quicker.

Surely if you want a properly fast two seater convertible just buy a chimaera for half the price and be done with it?

[threespires]

jof said:

I really 'get' the MX5 if you want a white goods, safe, modern, rear drive convertible that's bags of fun to drive.

But do I struggle with the never ending need to spend x thousands pounds to make a brand new one a bit quicker.

Surely if you want a properly fast two seater convertible just buy a chimaera for half the price and be done with it?

Some people prefer to arrive at their destination in the car they left in, not on the back of an RAC Relay truck. [I am an ex-TVR salesperson ☺]

[V8RX7]

jof said:

I really 'get' the MX5 if you want a white goods, safe, modern, rear drive convertible that's bags of fun to drive.

But do I struggle with the never ending need to spend x thousands pounds to make a brand new one a bit quicker.

Surely if you want a properly fast two seater convertible just buy a chimaera for half the price and be done with it?

Having owned 5 TVRs they have all come and gone, my supercharged MX5 has remained.

I want a roof I can open and close easily - I do many short runs.
I need to see if there is a Police car behind me - I couldn't do that in a TVR with the hood up or down
I want to get to my destination
I want a heater that clears the screen and heats the interior
I need wipers that work

I could go on - perhaps easier to ask - how many use a TVR as a daily driver (virtually none) how many use an MX5 (the vast majority)

[Black S2K]

NJH said:

I thought properly pulse tuned inlet manifolds always produced higher cylinder filling at the specific tuned for rpm then throttle bodies.

That could be it - both the 86 and MX-5 have very long inlet tracts (and not variable-length ones like the old VVIS ones) so it might possibly explain the noticeable torque improvement across the mid-range and not so much power gain at the top, where switching to a shorter harmonic would help.

Although Paul M3's doubts are reasonable, perhaps a better question might be why does it only have 160BHP out of the box there days? It seems a bit low for a 'sporty' engine.

[pigeonskirt]

dufunk said:

Impressive torque figures for N/A but lets face it these are after market mods the GT86 with manifold and remap would put out at least 220bhp even low from factory they are more like 185bhp not a great engine either tbh compared to 3SGE beams or K20.

Neither the 3SGE nor the K20a needed to be euro 6 compliant, unlike the Skyactive or D4S. To therefore label them as "not a great engine" as a little short sighted. In fact plain wrong, the new engines are arguably superior.

[sad61t]

threespires said:

Some people prefer to arrive at their destination in the car they left in, not on the back of an RAC Relay truck. [I am an ex-TVR salesperson ?]

With sales patter like that, I'm not surprised you didn't keep the job.

[Seb Gwizdek]

Im Happy with my MK4s power output, I came from an S2000 to this and the car as a whole Is a more enjoyable package. I had mine remapped on day 1 at BBR and was the second customer car to have a Map. The car made 176 after from just the map. The rest of the gain is what has been discovered to be a restrictive exhaust, the american forums back this up, the guys doing the work across the pond are a bit more forthcoming with details but it all matches conversations i've had with Neil @ BBR.


I have since fitted the louder of the two back boxes which can be a touch obnoxious when cold but sounds perfect afterwards and in nowhere near track day limiits.


Exhuast video here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHo_-5p05cE

[Mafioso]

Sorry to dig up an old thread, but which stubby aerial are you using BBR guys? I don't like the old fashioned long aerial (the only thing I don't like!). I bought one off ebay but it doesn't fit the 'base' very well and looks crap, but yours looks good in the pics!

[Mannginger]

Super 200 package being released next week seemingly. Be very interested to see what's included and for how much.

[pleasebecheaptoaddontopofthe190package!]

Also - missed the above query re the aerial, I'm using the stubby from Moss

_DSC0657_edited-1 by Phil Mann, on Flickr