RE: Honda NSX: PH Heroes
Discussion
Derek Chevalier said:
Buff Mchugelarge said:
It would be left for dust by a mildly tweaked scooby away from the lights but look at it...!?
How much tweaking - >300bhp?* As would an Audi S1, for example...but is that relevant?
havoc said:
Derek Chevalier said:
Buff Mchugelarge said:
It would be left for dust by a mildly tweaked scooby away from the lights but look at it...!?
How much tweaking - >300bhp?* As would an Audi S1, for example...but is that relevant?
http://accelerationtimes.com/models/subaru-impreza...
havoc said:
Very little - Scooby is 4wd with significantly shorter gearing and a turbo'd engine (i.e. more torque lower down) - a stock STi would easily outdrag an NSX to 60 or so, and it'd probably take until over 100 for the NSX to claw the lost ground back. I suspect a well driven WRX* would give an NSX trouble from a standing start...but that completely ignores the point of the NSX.
* As would an Audi S1, for example...but is that relevant?
Exactly. Any modern turbocharged car with a reasonable engine could make more than the NSX, but comparing a FI boxer to one of the finest V6's ever made is bizzare. * As would an Audi S1, for example...but is that relevant?
stephen300o said:
Ozzie Osmond said:
Black S2K said:
No idea why you'd think rear over hang had anything to do with anything other than boot space and stability.
RobM77 said:
Ozzie Osmond said:
RobM77 said:
I see the mid 90s as a peak moment before things like drive by wire throttles and ePAS starting ruining cars - the point where the full benefits of advancing technology were felt in a positive way before the negatives started flooding in. Evo call it the end of the 'analogue' era and the start of the 'digital' era of cars.
Oh, it was also so wonderful 20 years ago.... Except it wasn't. Dreaming of some imaginary golden era makes no sense to me. Back in the 90's they were probably saying the same thing about the 70s - a golden era before the world was ruined by fuel injection, catalysts and power steering!There are some truly great cars on sale today. It's simply a matter of looking forwards instead of backwards.
Personally, I'm not a luddite by characteristics and I embrace new technology, but I do keep my head screwed on and if something's worse, then I'll stick with the old. I do regard the 'analogue' era of cars as far superior to their cantankerous modern equivalents with their odd steering geo, ePAS, DBW etc. The key word in my post was 'peaked' - I preferred 80s cars to 70s cars (who didn't?!) and 90s cars to 80s cars, so there was an improvement generation on generation, but other than for notable exceptions, that's where it stopped for me; that's where it reached a peak.
I don't think many people would argue that 99% of DBW throttle systems are utter crap compared with their cable equivalents from a driving point of view - 99% of ePAS systems are worse than hPAS systems from a driving point of view - traditional linear steering geo is better for a keen driver than this jumpy about the straight ahead nonsense that we get in modern 'sporty' hatches, etc etc. There are exceptions - turbocharging for instance has got much better and lag has been all but removed, but in the main, no, I prefer 90s cars.
The secondhand sports/classic car market seems to agree with me, so I know I'm not alone.
Excessive safety & emissions legislation seemed to force a change in the oughties, where cars suddenly needed to get substantially larger and heavier with poorer visibility. To stop them looking overbodied, massive wheels became necessary and I think that probably is as much to blame as the EPAS itself for the change. Actually the DBW and EPS on the NSX seem a lot better than they do on most more recent cars, so the devolution is continuing. One can feel the 17" wheels of the facelifts dulling the responses compared to the 16" wheels on the in the earlier photograph, which is probably a good indicator.
Car development hasn't peaked, maybe mainstream legislation has forced the manufacturers to do different things, but things are more entertaining in car land than they have been for a while. Setright never did much for me, I guess it's a generation thing.
Being an 70's child I can confirm that there were many more s
t cars per range than there are now. Trouble is everything from a 205 to a mk1 Escort is touted as being other-wordly, they aren't. Similarly, and it's not a popular view, I found the NSX was too competent for its own good and a slight disappointment in some ways.
But, the comparison with Impreza's and such like makes me laugh. The car was early 90's and never really moved on, apart from the 3.2 and 6 speed box. In that era and looking at things like the 348 it was better built, engineered, more practical, reliable, faster and cheaper to run. Its construction was way ahead of its time and it was conceived when Honda were at the height of their powers, some people now really wouldn't understand just what a powerful engineering company and how focused they were. A company so technically able they could develop and build a supercar then let it fall away, it was a statement. The likes of Porsche would, and have traded off it it for years.
The cost now of NSX's is a bit daft. So are many other things. The issue is people want them and there is a limited supply, that drives prices up, but doesn't mean that they should command it. As recently as 2007 I was looking at a £15K car, I should have bought it but I didn't want it enough. I'm glad I took the chance to own one though, nowadays I'd have laughed at the entry price and missed out on a great experience.
I wish they'd havve chucked the NSX-R into the UK in volume and also that they'd have progressed with the GT racer with a screaming V10 rather than the tepid thing that they have now. It'll have all the numbers and sell but as per usual Honda miss the trick despite having all the tools in the shed to blow most of the establishment out of the water.
Being an 70's child I can confirm that there were many more s
t cars per range than there are now. Trouble is everything from a 205 to a mk1 Escort is touted as being other-wordly, they aren't. Similarly, and it's not a popular view, I found the NSX was too competent for its own good and a slight disappointment in some ways. But, the comparison with Impreza's and such like makes me laugh. The car was early 90's and never really moved on, apart from the 3.2 and 6 speed box. In that era and looking at things like the 348 it was better built, engineered, more practical, reliable, faster and cheaper to run. Its construction was way ahead of its time and it was conceived when Honda were at the height of their powers, some people now really wouldn't understand just what a powerful engineering company and how focused they were. A company so technically able they could develop and build a supercar then let it fall away, it was a statement. The likes of Porsche would, and have traded off it it for years.
The cost now of NSX's is a bit daft. So are many other things. The issue is people want them and there is a limited supply, that drives prices up, but doesn't mean that they should command it. As recently as 2007 I was looking at a £15K car, I should have bought it but I didn't want it enough. I'm glad I took the chance to own one though, nowadays I'd have laughed at the entry price and missed out on a great experience.
I wish they'd havve chucked the NSX-R into the UK in volume and also that they'd have progressed with the GT racer with a screaming V10 rather than the tepid thing that they have now. It'll have all the numbers and sell but as per usual Honda miss the trick despite having all the tools in the shed to blow most of the establishment out of the water.
Edited by anonymous-user on Saturday 19th December 20:36
yonex said:
I wish they'd havve chucked the NSX-R into the UK in volume and also that they'd have progressed with the GT racer with a screaming V10 rather than the tepid thing that they have now. It'll have all the numbers and sell but as per usual Honda miss the trick despite having all the tools in the shed to blow most of the establishment out of the water.
A lot of us do - the FR car above looked and (in Super-GT form) sounded utterly fantastic. New one, as you say, will do the numbers and be bewitchingly quick/agile/responsive but is by all accounts a little 'remote'...Otherwise I agree with Stephen - 'classic' car prices are currently going silly*, and the Jap stuff is actually far less-afflicted than the European stuff (£60k for a Mk3/4 Escort RS Turbo isn't just silly, it's completely out of touch with reality - a thoroughly mediocre car with NO race/rally heritage, just a blue oval on the front and the letters "RS" put on the back by Marketing - utter b
ks - I drove one and even years ago I thought it was a dog of a car, even by 1980s standards - hell, a fkin' 1990s Honda Accord has more claim to race heritage through the BTCC SuperTouring era, and you can pick up ATRs for 20p and a pack of Haribo at the moment!).* Supply and demand, i know...but there's currently NO relationship to usable value and it's become dominated by the "investment" :spit: market, which saddens me on so many levels...
It does suck, for me when I see some of the prices it's more about where these things are going...not on the road but into 'collections', or worse 'portfolios' in carcoons somewhere trading hands like a paintings etc. The hours of engineering involved and things like the wishbones, which are achingly beautiful is just lost in the greater scheme of commodity trading.
That's just what makes me tick about a car like this.
That's just what makes me tick about a car like this.
I've always thought the "more power, more speed" school of supercar design is lazy. The NSZ is one of those cars I'll never get bored with looking at, it's beautiful and the design philosophy behind it I.e. "Make it usable" is just my cup of tea, being an engineer.
It is sad that gorgeous cars like this, designed to be driven are beyond the reach of those who would do just that because collectors and speculators want one sitting on a plinth earning interest and kudos
It is sad that gorgeous cars like this, designed to be driven are beyond the reach of those who would do just that because collectors and speculators want one sitting on a plinth earning interest and kudos
^ That's because it was so right initially, and then constantly revised and refined.
Not many people know that the grades of aluminium that the car was built from was revised over the years went - the body panels for later cars are thinner, lighter and stronger due to advances in metal technology than the ones at launch. The door sill structural profile was changed in around 1995 when the Type T targa-top was introduced - not just for the T but for all variants from then on - because computing for designing metal profiles for rigidity (FEA etc.) had improved. Even the later C32B engine was revised to meet LEV status requirements a couple of years after its' 1997 introduction - this on an engine that was only installed in ~1600 cars worldwide
The NSX was ahead of it's time in terms of engineering and innovation.
Not many people know that the grades of aluminium that the car was built from was revised over the years went - the body panels for later cars are thinner, lighter and stronger due to advances in metal technology than the ones at launch. The door sill structural profile was changed in around 1995 when the Type T targa-top was introduced - not just for the T but for all variants from then on - because computing for designing metal profiles for rigidity (FEA etc.) had improved. Even the later C32B engine was revised to meet LEV status requirements a couple of years after its' 1997 introduction - this on an engine that was only installed in ~1600 cars worldwide
The NSX was ahead of it's time in terms of engineering and innovation.
The NSX is undoubtedly the car that gave the establishment the kick up the posterior that it deserved and needed to shock it out of its arrogance and complacency.
While there is little doubt that "it would probably be shown a clean pair of heels by a well-driven Cayman S", I have equally little doubt that the Cayman S- and all more grown-up supercars of the modern era- would be nowhere near as good as they are if they weren't forced to improve their game by the Japanese upstart.
While there is little doubt that "it would probably be shown a clean pair of heels by a well-driven Cayman S", I have equally little doubt that the Cayman S- and all more grown-up supercars of the modern era- would be nowhere near as good as they are if they weren't forced to improve their game by the Japanese upstart.
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