RE: Why we love rear-wheel drive
Discussion
VeeFource said:
I love rwd. But I also love an agile short wheelbase with low weight which is next to impossible to get with some practicality (I.e. more than two seats and a decent sized boot) with rwd. A GT86 is closest but that's still 20% heavier and a 320mm longer wheelbase than my Swift Sport. Plus most people who take the back seats selfishly have legs.
Although they're derided and scoffed at on here, the old Mk1 and Mk2 Escorts with a pokey engine in were great for fitting this type of bill. A GT86 looks very big alongside ( and also 250kg heavier ). Adults could also fit in the back You just don't get the modcons and crash safety that most people demand now
yonex said:
I would like to take the M3 on track at some point but I know it would destroy a set of tyres, etc in a short while. Then the paintwork would probably get peppered again and the brakes, well they probably wouldn't 
Great road car, but if funds allow i'd definitely always keep a toy for the track.
However, rwd all the way for me, it is just more fun.
Ah, that must explain your enthusiasm for an FN2 (whatever that is - like a CR-V maybe?), but for sure it is not RWD in any way, shape or form................Great road car, but if funds allow i'd definitely always keep a toy for the track.
However, rwd all the way for me, it is just more fun.
WTF!HAPPY NEW YEAR!
Edited by Mr Tidy on Wednesday 6th January 23:42
CABC said:
jamieduff1981 said:
Half my fleet at a AB postcode:
Tbh you sound like an AWD is for you. People who enjoy RWD appreciate more than just being able to mash their right foot into the carpet in winter without the car slapping them about the face.
I use all of mine all year round. My pickup stays in RWD mode except for icy inclines - it tends to understeer in 4WD mode and understeer terrifies me.
Tell me you've shrunk the Cerb...... 'Cos that picture is scary. 
Tbh you sound like an AWD is for you. People who enjoy RWD appreciate more than just being able to mash their right foot into the carpet in winter without the car slapping them about the face.
I use all of mine all year round. My pickup stays in RWD mode except for icy inclines - it tends to understeer in 4WD mode and understeer terrifies me.
cerb4.5lee said:
CABC said:
jamieduff1981 said:
Half my fleet at a AB postcode:
Tbh you sound like an AWD is for you. People who enjoy RWD appreciate more than just being able to mash their right foot into the carpet in winter without the car slapping them about the face.
I use all of mine all year round. My pickup stays in RWD mode except for icy inclines - it tends to understeer in 4WD mode and understeer terrifies me.
Tell me you've shrunk the Cerb...... 'Cos that picture is scary. Tbh you sound like an AWD is for you. People who enjoy RWD appreciate more than just being able to mash their right foot into the carpet in winter without the car slapping them about the face.
I use all of mine all year round. My pickup stays in RWD mode except for icy inclines - it tends to understeer in 4WD mode and understeer terrifies me.
They're only 17" wheels on it. They'd look modest on a Mini these days!
You can reach the far side of the roof when washing/drying a Cerbera! It's not big compared to a Midget:
Not my photo but one I found on PH a while ago and thought worth saving!
Edited by jamieduff1981 on Thursday 7th January 07:35
Edited by jamieduff1981 on Thursday 7th January 07:37
It's a bit funny to see so much talk of 'un corrupted steering'. Vast majority of current RWD cars are very heavy with large Tyres and over assisted steering so still have little feel. You may not get torque steer but you still have crap steering - and let's gloss over braking effort.
I like RWD but I've had plenty where being RWD could not make up for other deficiencies. I'd take a good FWD over a mundane RWD any day. But on balance I'd still say I prefer RWD particularly in a car that's meant to be focused.
I like RWD but I've had plenty where being RWD could not make up for other deficiencies. I'd take a good FWD over a mundane RWD any day. But on balance I'd still say I prefer RWD particularly in a car that's meant to be focused.
Mr Tidy said:
Ah, that must explain your enthusiasm for an FN2 (whatever that is - like a CR-V maybe?), but for sure it is not RWD in any way, shape or form................ WTF!
HAPPY NEW YEAR!
WTF!HAPPY NEW YEAR!
Edited by anonymous-user on Wednesday 6th January 23:42
It was a DC2. Read here and also here.
No. Not 'like a CR-V'.
Edited by anonymous-user on Thursday 7th January 12:07
When I first started driving RWD was the norm and the most popular FWD option was the Mini. (a proper Mini, not the bloody great thing you get nowadays!) In fact, my first car was a 1962 Mini Minor 850, with a 1300 engine conversion and lace front floor pans although I swapped that and spent a few years sailing a MK3 Cortina. The Mini would have run rings around it but I just felt RWD handling to be more intuitive. Apart from a brief spell with an Audi 90 Coupe and a Renault 5 Gordini Turbo (which suffered terminal torque steer) I've stuck with RWD ever since. As transport I think FWD is absolutely fine but I just don't enjoy the typical FWD handling characteristics, when compared to RWD. This isn't a criticism of FWD, it's simply my personal preference and why I drive older BMW's. I like the Toyota for the way it feels and drives but it's size and weight, that puts me off the 4 series. I'm a bit too big for a Caterham.
Despite modest power and relatively narrow tyres, my old E30 is tough to beat thanks to RWD.
Despite modest power and relatively narrow tyres, my old E30 is tough to beat thanks to RWD.
Buff Mchugelarge said:
Yep all hail RWD. Good.
Does the M4 really make max power at 5.5k rpm?!
It's a petrol, not a diesel isn't it?
Do you find your self smashing in to the rev limiter all the time?
OT but I was a bit surprised, especially after the last high revving V8 M3.
Heavens no!!! you've got the wrong end of the stick here pal. The peak power is made there, but that's not the same as where the rev limited resides! The rev limiter is a couple of thousand higher - thank goodness. Does the M4 really make max power at 5.5k rpm?!
It's a petrol, not a diesel isn't it?
Do you find your self smashing in to the rev limiter all the time?
OT but I was a bit surprised, especially after the last high revving V8 M3.
nickfrog said:
DibblyDobbler said:
Hmm - you might be right Nick. Purely in a straight line if I give it full accelerator in 2nd from a rolling start it'll start breaking away by the time I'm up to around 40ish in the current cool and damp conditions - and that's on fairly new MPSS. I've been spoiled as I've had various nippy 4WD cars before - eg S4, Impreza etc and I used to love blasting off regardless of wet/dry/warm/cold etc. Nipping out of a side road into a gap requires a lot of feathering of the throttle and I feel like I'm only using about half of the horse power the car has - it's frustrating!
That's my favourite thing about the car ;-). On a serious note have you considered a LSD ?
aeropilot said:
DibblyDobbler said:
Oh nice fleet! 
Yes I agree - if I'm coming out of a junction and accelerating away I like being able to give it full welly and it's just not possible in my 135i so (flame suit on!) I'll be after a Golf R or Focus RS or some such next
Clearly a girls car will suit you better then..... Yes I agree - if I'm coming out of a junction and accelerating away I like being able to give it full welly and it's just not possible in my 135i so (flame suit on!) I'll be after a Golf R or Focus RS or some such next
Perhaps a nice way of summing this up is that in relation to the oft-cited "best front-wheel drive car ever" (ITR DC2):
(a) it was remarkably focused and in that sense is hardly typical of front-wheel drive; and
(b) it was praised by many road testers for its party trick - feeling like a rear-driven car(!).
Perhaps (b) above sums the FWD/RWD debate up nicely.
It's possible to have extremely effective examples of both but I assume the laws of physics would dictate it's better to be pushed from the rear spreading the forces over all 4 wheels, rotation control from the rear and non-driven steered wheels.
I have a DC2 (it's an incredible bit of work) and hope to add a GT86/BRZ or 911 to the fleet to have the best of both worlds.
(a) it was remarkably focused and in that sense is hardly typical of front-wheel drive; and
(b) it was praised by many road testers for its party trick - feeling like a rear-driven car(!).
Perhaps (b) above sums the FWD/RWD debate up nicely.
It's possible to have extremely effective examples of both but I assume the laws of physics would dictate it's better to be pushed from the rear spreading the forces over all 4 wheels, rotation control from the rear and non-driven steered wheels.
I have a DC2 (it's an incredible bit of work) and hope to add a GT86/BRZ or 911 to the fleet to have the best of both worlds.
t cars 
is1 said:
Perhaps a nice way of summing this up is that in relation to the oft-cited "best front-wheel drive car ever" (ITR DC2):
(a) it was remarkably focused and in that sense is hardly typical of front-wheel drive; and
(b) it was praised by many road testers for its party trick - feeling like a rear-driven car(!).
Perhaps (b) above sums the FWD/RWD debate up nicely.
It's possible to have extremely effective examples of both but I assume the laws of physics would dictate it's better to be pushed from the rear spreading the forces over all 4 wheels, rotation control from the rear and non-driven steered wheels.
I have a DC2 (it's an incredible bit of work) and hope to add a GT86/BRZ or 911 to the fleet to have the best of both worlds.
That's pretty fair but I don't think the laws of physics really support the 911 as being optimal (I have one, I love it, it's not perfect). I stand by the point that like for like - ie choosing between two focused cars, I'll take the RWD more often than not. But choosing between a focused / performance FWD and a mundane RWD, I'll take FWD, therefore it isn't always better.(a) it was remarkably focused and in that sense is hardly typical of front-wheel drive; and
(b) it was praised by many road testers for its party trick - feeling like a rear-driven car(!).
Perhaps (b) above sums the FWD/RWD debate up nicely.
It's possible to have extremely effective examples of both but I assume the laws of physics would dictate it's better to be pushed from the rear spreading the forces over all 4 wheels, rotation control from the rear and non-driven steered wheels.
I have a DC2 (it's an incredible bit of work) and hope to add a GT86/BRZ or 911 to the fleet to have the best of both worlds.
VeeFource said:
I love rwd. But I also love an agile short wheelbase with low weight which is next to impossible to get with some practicality (I.e. more than two seats and a decent sized boot) with rwd.
This is a major factor to me; I also love light short wheelbase responsive cars, but it's really hard to get that with RWD, especially with practicality. I've had two Caterhams (believe it or not, a Caterham is shorter than a Metro..), an Elise and a 2-Eleven, which satisfy this nicely with RWD; but as you say, one normally needs a practical car as well if you own something like that. So RWD isn't perfect for a daily driver due to this issue, but on balance no matter how much I love cars like the 106 GTi, Citroen AX GT, Peugeot 205 GTi etc I'm actually happier in a heavier and longer wheelbase car that has RWD. It's worth pointing out this compromise though and I also suppose that it highlights just how important RWD is for me that I'm willing to sacrifice two major requirements (weight and agility) to get it.yonex said:
I would like to take the M3 on track at some point but I know it would destroy a set of tyres, etc in a short while. Then the paintwork would probably get peppered again and the brakes, well they probably wouldn't
Great road car, but if funds allow i'd definitely always keep a toy for the track.
However, rwd all the way for me, it is just more fun.
You might be surprised, I have tracked my M3 (F80) and the Michelin Pilot Supersports took it in their stride and lasted several days and many thousands of road miles. The standard steel brakes are also fine for track use for 20 minute sessions and better still with a simple pad swap.Great road car, but if funds allow i'd definitely always keep a toy for the track.
However, rwd all the way for me, it is just more fun.
RobM77 said:
his is a major factor to me; I also love light short wheelbase responsive cars, but it's really hard to get that with RWD, especially with practicality. I've had two Caterhams (believe it or not, a Caterham is shorter than a Metro..), an Elise and a 2-Eleven, which satisfy this nicely with RWD; but as you say, one normally needs a practical car as well if you own something like that. So RWD isn't perfect for a daily driver due to this issue, but on balance no matter how much I love cars like the 106 GTi, Citroen AX GT, Peugeot 205 GTi etc I'm actually happier in a heavier and longer wheelbase car that has RWD. It's worth pointing out this compromise though and I also suppose that it highlights just how important RWD is for me that I'm willing to sacrifice two major requirements (weight and agility) to get it.
Indeed; for an everyday car, whatever-wheel-drive via torque-vectored AWD is simply staggering in its ability. RWD for that exquisitely balanced sports car (or two) in the garage.
The JM said:
You might be surprised, I have tracked my M3 (F80) and the Michelin Pilot Supersports took it in their stride and lasted several days and many thousands of road miles. The standard steel brakes are also fine for track use for 20 minute sessions and better still with a simple pad swap.
Good info. To be honest though I have the Ariel for messing around on track, the 3 series is just a road car. Out of interest what pads do you run, I am swapping them soon and thinking along the lines of RS29's as I loved them in the 130.Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff