RE: TVR to offer carbon construction
Discussion
redroadster said:
Although I am a fan of Gordon Murray I can't help thinking the I stream system is nothing more than what kit car manufacturers have done for years am I missing something ? No doubt his designs will be able to pass crash tests but making steel frames and bonding body panels is hardly hi tech now if he was printing cars I,d think yes you are doing something very different but how has he managed to kid major car manufacturers that this is a new technology ? .
back in 1999 TVR built their racing cars and the 3/4 road homologation cars using a tubular chassis bonded with and around aircraft honeycombed cf panels and integrated cf shell. New TVR seem to be simply applying modern technology to make commercially viable something that TVR have already done over 15 years ago. TVR found the process hugely expensive not due to materials at all but almost solely due to it being done in an incredibly labour intensive manner. If GM has found a means to reduce that labour cost to almost nothing then I can easily see why it will be very cheap to manufacture in contrast to what many seem to think.
http://www.thehedgegroup.co.uk/default.asp?id=67
Edited by DonkeyApple on Saturday 23 January 09:40
Car says the launch editions will be a carbon fibre chassis and body, after that it will be aluminium and fibreglass, with CF as an option. http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-news/industry-new...
smilo996 said:
My my there are alot of handbags being flung about
And with good reason imo.TVR have stated that they will be releasing this car in 2017, ie in something like 18 months time. Having been involved in developing passenger cars for over 20 years, i can tell you that 18 months is too short a time to PROPERLY develop a decent road car... Changing the spec at what seems to be a whim is NEVER a good idea.
Look at Zenos for a good example of how to do it.
1) research your market sector
2) Come up with a spec
3) Develop that spec, making sure you don't get too ambitious with you first model
4) Make enough profit and goodwill from you first model to be able to develop it further.
Now consider that the Zenos is effectively a track car, with no doors, screen (to start off with) heating etc. Now consider that engineering those extremely important parts that everyone takes for granted will absorb the vast majority of you time and budget. So any company that has time to pontificate and change it's spec on seemingly extremely important BIW components at this point in their dev cycle flags a very worrying flag to me........
Max_Torque said:
smilo996 said:
My my there are alot of handbags being flung about
And with good reason imo.TVR have stated that they will be releasing this car in 2017, ie in something like 18 months time. Having been involved in developing passenger cars for over 20 years, i can tell you that 18 months is too short a time to PROPERLY develop a decent road car... Changing the spec at what seems to be a whim is NEVER a good idea.
Look at Zenos for a good example of how to do it.
1) research your market sector
2) Come up with a spec
3) Develop that spec, making sure you don't get too ambitious with you first model
4) Make enough profit and goodwill from you first model to be able to develop it further.
Now consider that the Zenos is effectively a track car, with no doors, screen (to start off with) heating etc. Now consider that engineering those extremely important parts that everyone takes for granted will absorb the vast majority of you time and budget. So any company that has time to pontificate and change it's spec on seemingly extremely important BIW components at this point in their dev cycle flags a very worrying flag to me........
Ozzie Osmond said:
•'At least four new models' under development
Is Dany Bahar involved?
•Priced and designed like TVRs of old
Hmmmm
I never had a problem with the design of the old models...my Chimaera never gave me any reliability problems, and I was young enough to not be bothered about heat soak and the fibre glass glue smell etc. And I loved, and still love, the blokey, British, un-PC nature of them.Is Dany Bahar involved?
•Priced and designed like TVRs of old
Hmmmm
I guess the 4 new models being developed will all share major components, so it probably isn't a stretch to do so.
The price point of old TVRs was all important though. When I bought my first Chim 400, a 2.5 Boxster was nearly 40k and you had to wait for 2 years to get it...and when you did get it, it wasn't that quick. So picking the Chimaera was an easier choice. 33k with some options, IIRC...and it was built and delivered in 6 months.
So given that a Boxster 2.7 is still 40k...probably 45k once you've added some spec, I think it would be bad if the new TVRs had a starting price of any more than 50k.
This is a ridiculously small change isn't it? Akin to swapping the riveted aluminium panels on a Caterham with honeycomb core cf panels cut to the same shape...
As for the previous poster, I very much doubt there's much cross over between buyers of a base level four cylinder turbo boxster and this. Depending on final spec, anything under £75k is fine in my eyes.
As for the previous poster, I very much doubt there's much cross over between buyers of a base level four cylinder turbo boxster and this. Depending on final spec, anything under £75k is fine in my eyes.
jezzaaa said:
So given that a Boxster 2.7 is still 40k...probably 45k once you've added some spec, I think it would be bad if the new TVRs had a starting price of any more than 50k.
I suspect bad news is on the way.The entry level Boxster/Cayman at just under £40k (not much more expensive than an Elise) must be almost a "loss leader" and I suspect sits there just to make life difficult for everybody else.
The S models, Alfa 4C and Exige look like a more realistic minimum sportscar price - at £50k to £55k.
If a new TVR emerges for less than £70k I'll be surprised. If it's £100k ..... I won't be surprised at all.
Talking to mr Edgar the other week ( bumped into him at a do, expected a quick hello but was still talking TVr's over an hour later)
IIRC the body panels are attached to the main structural tub, so very straight forward to have different models/ body styles by only changing the panels. Other than a couple of hard points in the chassis you can do almost anything with the body. so a number of different models seems easily feasible.
different body shape and different spec engine very easy.
As for price if its outside the 60-80 for the main stream model i'd be surprised, if it is it seams perfectly reasonable, thats only around twice what my chimaera was in late 90's, and a Sagaris in 05 was around 50k. In comparison to replace the discover i bought new in 2003 I'd have to spend well over twice almost 3 times the amount to get a new discovery, so a doubling in price would seem about right.
Will TVR produce a car, will it be any good, will it work? I've no idea but it they do what they say it will be brilliant and i wish them luck.
IIRC the body panels are attached to the main structural tub, so very straight forward to have different models/ body styles by only changing the panels. Other than a couple of hard points in the chassis you can do almost anything with the body. so a number of different models seems easily feasible.
different body shape and different spec engine very easy.
As for price if its outside the 60-80 for the main stream model i'd be surprised, if it is it seams perfectly reasonable, thats only around twice what my chimaera was in late 90's, and a Sagaris in 05 was around 50k. In comparison to replace the discover i bought new in 2003 I'd have to spend well over twice almost 3 times the amount to get a new discovery, so a doubling in price would seem about right.
Will TVR produce a car, will it be any good, will it work? I've no idea but it they do what they say it will be brilliant and i wish them luck.
Ozzie Osmond said:
jezzaaa said:
So given that a Boxster 2.7 is still 40k...probably 45k once you've added some spec, I think it would be bad if the new TVRs had a starting price of any more than 50k.
I suspect bad news is on the way.The entry level Boxster/Cayman at just under £40k (not much more expensive than an Elise) must be almost a "loss leader" and I suspect sits there just to make life difficult for everybody else.
The S models, Alfa 4C and Exige look like a more realistic minimum sportscar price - at £50k to £55k.
If a new TVR emerges for less than £70k I'll be surprised. If it's £100k ..... I won't be surprised at all.
I think a 40k boxster/Cayman is a very rare proposition, and a market class below where the new TVR will be pitched. It'll be aiming to offer 911 turbo performance, supercar drama, and base spec 911 money. As the latter day TVRs were pitched.
An absolutely rock bottom poverty spec 911 that no one would ever actually buy starts at 76k these days. Vast majority leaving the forecourt though are pushing 100k+. And a Turbo S is 150k before you've even so much as tickled the options list. 200k is a very easy and frightening proposition for a well specced 911.
Kind of puts things into perspective doesn't it?
An absolutely rock bottom poverty spec 911 that no one would ever actually buy starts at 76k these days. Vast majority leaving the forecourt though are pushing 100k+. And a Turbo S is 150k before you've even so much as tickled the options list. 200k is a very easy and frightening proposition for a well specced 911.
Kind of puts things into perspective doesn't it?
howertings said:
After some dozy clown drove through me recently as I was out cycling on my bike, I took the bike to the shop to be examined. The bike appeared to be intact, but the shop told me that a crashed carbon frame needs to be replaced as no-one will stand over it's post-crash strength and stability, even without any apparent damage.
Will the same logic apply to the composite chassis of cars or is the technology to repair composite products also progressing? In the case of low volume cars where future availability of spare parts for repair might be difficult, without the technology to repair a composite chassis, would a relatively minor accident to a car with a composite chassis be a show stopper?
The tub is scanned and then the decision is made if its economically viable or not to repair. i was amazed at what can be repaired with carbon in a valuable enough car Will the same logic apply to the composite chassis of cars or is the technology to repair composite products also progressing? In the case of low volume cars where future availability of spare parts for repair might be difficult, without the technology to repair a composite chassis, would a relatively minor accident to a car with a composite chassis be a show stopper?
wtdoom said:
howertings said:
After some dozy clown drove through me recently as I was out cycling on my bike, I took the bike to the shop to be examined. The bike appeared to be intact, but the shop told me that a crashed carbon frame needs to be replaced as no-one will stand over it's post-crash strength and stability, even without any apparent damage.
Will the same logic apply to the composite chassis of cars or is the technology to repair composite products also progressing? In the case of low volume cars where future availability of spare parts for repair might be difficult, without the technology to repair a composite chassis, would a relatively minor accident to a car with a composite chassis be a show stopper?
The tub is scanned and then the decision is made if its economically viable or not to repair. i was amazed at what can be repaired with carbon in a valuable enough car Will the same logic apply to the composite chassis of cars or is the technology to repair composite products also progressing? In the case of low volume cars where future availability of spare parts for repair might be difficult, without the technology to repair a composite chassis, would a relatively minor accident to a car with a composite chassis be a show stopper?
There are defined points in the A, B, C pillars and floorpan where it can be cut away, and new sections bonded in.
ajprice said:
A very different car, but the BMW i3 is carbon fibre, and this is how they would be crash repaired http://www.bmwblog.com/2014/07/11/learn-bmw-i3-rep...
There are defined points in the A, B, C pillars and floorpan where it can be cut away, and new sections bonded in.
Yes I've seen a carrera gt with sections 'shaved' away and replaced . It's really pretty amazing but very expensive a process There are defined points in the A, B, C pillars and floorpan where it can be cut away, and new sections bonded in.
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff