RE: Tesla Model S P90D: Review
Discussion
An the peak power of an ICE is full power at all revs ?
Nope - If the battery can be sorted and we can have recharge in under 10 mins with a range of 300 - 500 miles then the ICE will be gone.
Torque is massive power is massive and its all differently obtained. You can not compare an ICE with an electric motor.
Nope - If the battery can be sorted and we can have recharge in under 10 mins with a range of 300 - 500 miles then the ICE will be gone.
Torque is massive power is massive and its all differently obtained. You can not compare an ICE with an electric motor.
ruggedscotty said:
Nope - If the battery can be sorted and we can have recharge in under 10 mins with a range of 300 - 500 miles then the ICE will be gone.
Agreed but would you get that range over the winter months with the heating up full, stereo on, demisting on etc etc, and driven with the same vigour as an ICEd car?At least with an ICEd car, you get used to it and know what you're going to get from a tank. Full electric doesn't - yet - inspire me with confidence in the UK with our congestion problems. "Damn, I'm out of juice, need a recharge. Let's pull into the next service station, no wait, they don't have a charging point....."
Having to map out the journey kind of takes the fun and spontaneity out of a road trip. I know it's early days and the Tesla seems like the most viable full electric car to date (price aside) but I'm not sold on it yet. 100 years of ICE vs 10 years of FE development, better the devil you know! I just can't see batteries offering the same range as 60L of fuel for the foreseeable. Hybrids seem more predictable at the moment.
menguin said:
If the P85D has 393HP it's doing extremely well to get to 60mph in 3 seconds! I'd suggest that regardless of HP figures and torque figures the car does the speeds that it claims and reports from US owners suggest the range is accurate. With free Tesla charging stations already all across America and popping up over Europe quickly, when the 3 series equivalent comes in the traditional manufacturers will be so far behind they won't know what hit them.
Also check that they exclude 0.2 sec (Motortrend dragstrip testing) from the 3 sec number, so again the real number is 3.2 and not 3.0 or 2.8.I wonder how much cheap oil will damage EV uptake, that said, I totally agree that when/if that development comes through that enables the range and charging benefits then ICE is toast.
Also, we really need to stop thinking in terms of our beloved V8's, we are but dinosaurs and if we had never had them we wouldn't be worrying about it, the babies being born today wont miss them, they will regard them a bit like we regard Steam Engines, mildly interesting historical curiosities.
Also, we really need to stop thinking in terms of our beloved V8's, we are but dinosaurs and if we had never had them we wouldn't be worrying about it, the babies being born today wont miss them, they will regard them a bit like we regard Steam Engines, mildly interesting historical curiosities.
Fuldhat said:
A couple of things are not correct here.
1. The car do not in any way have 762 HP. The real number is in the 550 hp range, and that is why the number has been removed from Tesla sites in Europe as the number is american gimmick. Also the car only produces the 550hp and 700+ torgue the first 1-2-3 revolutions of the electic motor, after that the torgue rating drops fast.
Edit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQ5CGSSs9EQ / P85D maximum rating is 393 HP, and it drops fairly quickly.
2. No mention of the build quality`Anyone who has driven one, can see that it is 50% good 50% bad build quality and panels round the car will not always match.
3. The only reason for the huge sales in the US, are all the hipsters that used to buy Prius, now buy Tesla, it is a fasion item more than a car.
The horsepower figures maybe incorrect but the sales figures are not. And you're really going to quibble over .2 of a second on the 0-60 time? Really??? 3.2 seconds is still ludicrous for a 7-seater family car! You video link is also very misleading - as one commented succinctly explained:- 1. The car do not in any way have 762 HP. The real number is in the 550 hp range, and that is why the number has been removed from Tesla sites in Europe as the number is american gimmick. Also the car only produces the 550hp and 700+ torgue the first 1-2-3 revolutions of the electic motor, after that the torgue rating drops fast.
Edit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQ5CGSSs9EQ / P85D maximum rating is 393 HP, and it drops fairly quickly.
2. No mention of the build quality`Anyone who has driven one, can see that it is 50% good 50% bad build quality and panels round the car will not always match.
3. The only reason for the huge sales in the US, are all the hipsters that used to buy Prius, now buy Tesla, it is a fasion item more than a car.
"Without knowing the RPM for any given amount of measured torque a true HP figure can't be realised in fact it would be completely inaccurate. The only figure that should be of any concern in an electric vehicle is torque as you get max torque all of the time. I do wonder where the Tesla engineers get their HP figures from though I guess it would be motor RPM, wheel RPM would give you a lower number due to their large diameter. I don't think this dyno is inaccurate just the analysis of the given data is way out."
Even if the build quality is suspect, so what? That's a pretty weak argument. It's Tesla's first attempt at a mass-market car and it is in no way a bad place to be. You think Tesla would not try and improve their product in just the same way all the other brands have?
You're wrong on point 3 too - a Prius starts at $24,200/£21,995 so at $55,700/£45,400 (after incentives, without them it's just over $77,000/£52,000) a Tesla comes in at over double that; not many are going to cross shop between those two price points, especially now as Priuses are seen as 'Uber cars'. Somehow I don't think that the fact Tesla makes the best selling Luxury-class car in the USA mean that it's mainly bought by hipsters...
Edited by sidesauce on Monday 25th January 15:33
J4CKO said:
Also, we really need to stop thinking in terms of our beloved V8's, we are but dinosaurs and if we had never had them we wouldn't be worrying about it, the babies being born today wont miss them, they will regard them a bit like we regard Steam Engines, mildly interesting historical curiosities.
Happy to lose engine noise and charisma. I find hilariously rapid thrust infinitely more interesting, and motors seem to deliver that.Just as dinosaurs had their shot roaming around this planet, burning them is also being resigned to the history books.
Fuldhat said:
menguin said:
If the P85D has 393HP it's doing extremely well to get to 60mph in 3 seconds! I'd suggest that regardless of HP figures and torque figures the car does the speeds that it claims and reports from US owners suggest the range is accurate. With free Tesla charging stations already all across America and popping up over Europe quickly, when the 3 series equivalent comes in the traditional manufacturers will be so far behind they won't know what hit them.
Also check that they exclude 0.2 sec (Motortrend dragstrip testing) from the 3 sec number, so again the real number is 3.2 and not 3.0 or 2.8.
Fuldhat said:
A couple of things are not correct here.
1. The car do not in any way have 762 HP. The real number is in the 550 hp range, and that is why the number has been removed from Tesla sites in Europe as the number is american gimmick. Also the car only produces the 550hp and 700+ torgue the first 1-2-3 revolutions of the electic motor, after that the torgue rating drops fast.
Edit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQ5CGSSs9EQ / P85D maximum rating is 393 HP, and it drops fairly quickly.
2. No mention of the build quality`Anyone who has driven one, can see that it is 50% good 50% bad build quality and panels round the car will not always match.
3. The only reason for the huge sales in the US, are all the hipsters that used to buy Prius, now buy Tesla, it is a fasion item more than a car.
Wow. A lot of rather chippy negativity here. Did a Tesla salesman bed your wife or something?1. The car do not in any way have 762 HP. The real number is in the 550 hp range, and that is why the number has been removed from Tesla sites in Europe as the number is american gimmick. Also the car only produces the 550hp and 700+ torgue the first 1-2-3 revolutions of the electic motor, after that the torgue rating drops fast.
Edit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQ5CGSSs9EQ / P85D maximum rating is 393 HP, and it drops fairly quickly.
2. No mention of the build quality`Anyone who has driven one, can see that it is 50% good 50% bad build quality and panels round the car will not always match.
3. The only reason for the huge sales in the US, are all the hipsters that used to buy Prius, now buy Tesla, it is a fasion item more than a car.
Edited by Fuldhat on Monday 25th January 14:10
The Tesla is a deeply impressive achievement considering the company is so young. After all one of the big makers could have done this, but they didn't...
Having driven one, I found it very impressive. A great daily driver for moderate distances that are within range.
The "only reason it is selling is because of hipsters" jibe is so absurd it tell us more about you than it does about the car. Far from being a fashion item, there is some very good deep down engineering going on with this car. If Jaguar made this thing it would be treated as a massive breakthrough.
Tesla are a welcome addition to the market it seems to me. I am quite certain that a Tesla or two are lurking in the workshops of all the major European and Japanese car makers. In many respects the car sets down the benchmark that the big manufacturers need to surpass. This is a good thing.
SuperchargedVR6 said:
J4CKO said:
Also, we really need to stop thinking in terms of our beloved V8's, we are but dinosaurs and if we had never had them we wouldn't be worrying about it, the babies being born today wont miss them, they will regard them a bit like we regard Steam Engines, mildly interesting historical curiosities.
Happy to lose engine noise and charisma. I find hilariously rapid thrust infinitely more interesting, and motors seem to deliver that.Just as dinosaurs had their shot roaming around this planet, burning them is also being resigned to the history books.
toppstuff said:
Wow. A lot of rather chippy negativity here. Did a Tesla salesman bed your wife or something?
The Tesla is a deeply impressive achievement considering the company is so young. After all one of the big makers could have done this, but they didn't...
Having driven one, I found it very impressive. A great daily driver for moderate distances that are within range.
The "only reason it is selling is because of hipsters" jibe is so absurd it tell us more about you than it does about the car. Far from being a fashion item, there is some very good deep down engineering going on with this car. If Jaguar made this thing it would be treated as a massive breakthrough.
Tesla are a welcome addition to the market it seems to me. I am quite certain that a Tesla or two are lurking in the workshops of all the major European and Japanese car makers. In many respects the car sets down the benchmark that the big manufacturers need to surpass. This is a good thing.
Hehe no he did not and the only reason why I get midly upset is that I hate when facts are not correct. All this circle jerking about Tesla is to much, the car is fast until 60-70 and then any car with 250 hp or more will walk on it any day. So supercar fast, yes until 60-70 miles after that no so much.The Tesla is a deeply impressive achievement considering the company is so young. After all one of the big makers could have done this, but they didn't...
Having driven one, I found it very impressive. A great daily driver for moderate distances that are within range.
The "only reason it is selling is because of hipsters" jibe is so absurd it tell us more about you than it does about the car. Far from being a fashion item, there is some very good deep down engineering going on with this car. If Jaguar made this thing it would be treated as a massive breakthrough.
Tesla are a welcome addition to the market it seems to me. I am quite certain that a Tesla or two are lurking in the workshops of all the major European and Japanese car makers. In many respects the car sets down the benchmark that the big manufacturers need to surpass. This is a good thing.
Fuldhat said:
Hehe no he did not and the only reason why I get midly upset is that I hate when facts are not correct. All this circle jerking about Tesla is to much, the car is fast until 60-70 and then any car with 250 hp or more will walk on it any day. So supercar fast, yes until 60-70 miles after that no so much.
Even if the figures are a bit off, 0-100 in anything even remotely close to the stated 7.8 seconds is going to leave mos 250bhp cars a long, long way behind. Even 0-100 in 10 seconds is a damned slight faster than most things with 250bhp.
The Model S is a deeply impressive car for a company as new as Tesla but I still have my doubts about the company's long-term prospects. Investors seem to be valuing it on the assumption that it can meet its 2020 production targets despite that fact that it seems unable to forecast its quarterly production accurately. Then there's the fact that it doesn't have any competitive advantage when it comes to technology - despite all the fuss about it "open sourcing" its patents not a single other car company has made use of them. It's currently building its "gigafactory" in Nevada which, if operating at full capacity (which Tesla expects it to be doing by 2020) will require roughly 50% of the current market supply of lithium. So far, Tesla hasn't signed any lithium supply contracts and few new sources are expected to be available by then. Given that LG and Samsung aren't going to be sitting on their bums when it comes to lithium batteries I don't imagine that prices are going to drop significantly.
In terms of competition, GM already seems to have beaten it to the punch with a $35,000(ish) EV with a 200 mile range and you can be sure that all the other car companies aren't far behind. Tesla's only innovation was to make the electric car into a luxury lifestyle item. Unfortunately, it's going to be hard to shift its business model into making mass-market EVs profitably especially when they seem to determined to be as vertically integrated as possible (while BMW is proud of the fact that only about 30% of the value of its cars is self-generated).
Oh, and as for the power ratings for its cars: http://electrek.co/2015/11/16/tesla-is-now-in-medi...
In terms of competition, GM already seems to have beaten it to the punch with a $35,000(ish) EV with a 200 mile range and you can be sure that all the other car companies aren't far behind. Tesla's only innovation was to make the electric car into a luxury lifestyle item. Unfortunately, it's going to be hard to shift its business model into making mass-market EVs profitably especially when they seem to determined to be as vertically integrated as possible (while BMW is proud of the fact that only about 30% of the value of its cars is self-generated).
Oh, and as for the power ratings for its cars: http://electrek.co/2015/11/16/tesla-is-now-in-medi...
kambites said:
Fuldhat said:
Hehe no he did not and the only reason why I get midly upset is that I hate when facts are not correct. All this circle jerking about Tesla is to much, the car is fast until 60-70 and then any car with 250 hp or more will walk on it any day. So supercar fast, yes until 60-70 miles after that no so much.
Even if the figures are a bit off, 0-100 in anything even remotely close to the stated 7.8 seconds is going to leave mos 250bhp cars a long, long way behind. Even 0-100 in 10 seconds is a damned slight faster than most things with 250bhp.
On what do you base your claim of this car having BMW 330d esque acceleration after 70MPH? I've never seen or read anything else that mentioned what would be a pretty enormous characteristic of the car.
Mind you even if that is the case (and I'm quite sure it is not) firstly that doesn't make the peak power figure a lie, it just speaks to the different torque delivery characteristics of an EV vs an ICE. Secondly I would probably have far more fun and use out of a car that was insanely fast up to 100MPH - 120MPH but couldn't actually go any faster than that that I get from the 155MPH limited top speed of any other 4 door supersaloon.
Edited by dme123 on Monday 25th January 16:50
gangzoom said:
Last year in the US, the Model S has already managed to overtake sales of other $75,000+ machines. Audi, BMW, Merc better get a move on with their own Model S 'killer' to market, if this trend continues over the next few years there wouldn't be much of a luxury ICE car market left!!!
Given that EV sales went down 15% last year in both the UK and the US, despite all the lovely subsidies on offer, I would suggest the ICE market is doing just fine. As for the Tesla, nothing but a meh from me I'm afraid. OK the initial acceleration is impressive, however once you get to about 50 it gets a whole let less impressive, so Bahnstormers they are not. The looks are nothing particularly special, and despite costing the best part of 90k, it is not a quality item. The interiors are made from that horrible plastic only the US manufacturers know how to make, and they recently lost their Highly Recommended tag from Consumer Reports (the one they were bragging about) as they don't appear to be particularly reliable either.
I had a test drive in the P85d and thought it was very impressive.
The vehicle was limited to 90mph (apparently) and should I have gone over 70 then it would have out performed my RS4 all the way to limiter easily.
The car regardless of which speed range simply threw you back when you dropped the accelerator in a way the RS4 couldn't.
I don't where this over 50mph comer from the car does not lose any performance.
I loved it. The noise when your over 50mph was not too different to ICE due to the road and tyres which surprised me but at the same time made it more normal.
I tried the autopilot which was awesome.
The car had a motor brake so when whenever you took the foot off the gas it went into a mild brake. This must annoy the car behind as the brake lights activated whenever my foot was off the gas.
The only reason I didn't buy one was due to concerns over the government car tax going forward and the battery performance in 3 years time when I come to sell it compared to the future battery capabilities.
Build quality was fine nothing to complain about but power was simply mind-blowing for such a non sporty looking car.
The vehicle was limited to 90mph (apparently) and should I have gone over 70 then it would have out performed my RS4 all the way to limiter easily.
The car regardless of which speed range simply threw you back when you dropped the accelerator in a way the RS4 couldn't.
I don't where this over 50mph comer from the car does not lose any performance.
I loved it. The noise when your over 50mph was not too different to ICE due to the road and tyres which surprised me but at the same time made it more normal.
I tried the autopilot which was awesome.
The car had a motor brake so when whenever you took the foot off the gas it went into a mild brake. This must annoy the car behind as the brake lights activated whenever my foot was off the gas.
The only reason I didn't buy one was due to concerns over the government car tax going forward and the battery performance in 3 years time when I come to sell it compared to the future battery capabilities.
Build quality was fine nothing to complain about but power was simply mind-blowing for such a non sporty looking car.
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