RE: Porsche 718 Boxster - full details

[anonymous-user]

RoverP6B said:

Sure, the DC2 is light and revs to kingdom come, but it's got no torque, it's FWD and a 4-cylinder to boot. Sports cars need an engine with six or twelve cylinders, ideally. Yeah, the M3 is a bit heavier, but that's the price you pay for a straight six and RWD.

My 18-year-old 535i has about 240bhp and 260ftlb. No M3 or M5, sure. But, it gets thrashed on a regular basis, and the brakes stand up to the abuse.

Getting back to the Boxster, there is no way a turbocharged four-cylinder will ever stand up to a naturally-aspirated flat-six for charisma or power delivery. The free-revving nature, inherent balance and sweet sound that only a straight or flat six can deliver will be much missed. Now, you may as well buy a Golf R...

You haven't driven a DC2 or E90 M3, stop talking about them. No sports car has a 4 cylinder engine, do you mean like the Porsche 550, you know the car that ultimately spawned the Boxster, right?

[Quickmoose]

RoverP6B said:

Sports cars need an engine with six or twelve cylinders, ideally.

What a crock of crap.
Elise
Exige
Esprit
924
924 turbo
924 Carrera GT
944...S...S2...turbo...turbo S
968...
Honda S2000

God there's many that you should try before proclaiming as fact that Sports cars [i/ need[/i] more than 4 cylinders.
6, 8 and 12 DO add a degree of charisma if the rest of the car lacks focus.... but to suggest ALL 4's don't have any or that the cars that use 4 are not 'sports'. Shame on you.

[SidewaysSi]

yonex said:

You haven't driven a DC2 or E90 M3, stop talking about them. No sports car has a 4 cylinder engine, do you mean like the Porsche 550, you know the car that ultimately spawned the Boxster, right?

Exactly.And I assume the E30 M3 is a bit st too? Lotus Elise? Caterham? Original Elan?

Mr Rover you really don't know much at all. You are conveniently making up the definition of a sports car to fit your argument.

I see you make no mention of things like damping, steering feel, chassis balance etc. which are some of the key attributes in a sports car.

The fact is YOU like big heavy barges however no matter how much you argue, they are not sports cars. You really need to get more experience before you talk with such authority on things you know fk all about.

As for 'lack of torque', that sounds like someone who has not driven a VTEC. Use the bloody gears, man.

So please answer: Have you actually driven a DC2?

Edited by SidewaysSi on Thursday 4th February 20:03

[RoverP6B]

All of those are ultimately let down by their 4-cylinder engines. Nice chassis, but not really engines that will thrill at every moment. The S2000 sounds awful. The Esprit, of course, later got a flat-crank turbo V8, which also sounded crap. At least the Exige now has a nice yowling V6.

[xRIEx]

A.G. said:

RoverP6B said:

All of those are ultimately let down by their 4-cylinder engines. Nice chassis, but not really engines that will thrill at every moment. The S2000 sounds awful. The Esprit, of course, later got a flat-crank turbo V8, which also sounded crap. At least the Exige now has a nice yowling V6.

You actually consider that a Lotus Elan is let down by its twin cam 4 pot. Get a grip.

This is a dangerous subject path to tread as, just to give you all the necessary knowledge to allow you to make an informed decision, every time RoverP6B goes frothing at the keyboard about straight 6 engines, he's actually masturbating like a champion at the very thought of that perfectly balanced crankshaft as he oscillates along his own shaft.

Any mention of a 4 or 8 cylinder - or the twisted travesty of 6 cylinders in a V - causes him to flagellate his gimp in projected penance he is wishing upon you.

So, before you continue down this path of (admittedly correct) argumentation, please please please, think of the poor gimp.

[nickfrog]

RoverP6B said:

Sure, the DC2 is light and revs to kingdom come, but it's got no torque, it's FWD and a 4-cylinder to boot.

Why would it need torque if it revs? You do understand the basic equation power = torque x RPM, don't you ? You understand that a gearbox is a torque multiplier, surely ?

I am not exaggerating when I say the DC2 is one of those extremely rare cars that gets 100% unanimous feedback as being exceptional from anyone who has driven it on track or on the road. But of course there has to be an "expert" who's probably never seen a track.

The only reason you don't cook your pads is because you're scaring yourself at 4/10ths and probably use 30% of the braking power.

Have you test driven a California yet btw ?

[SidewaysSi]

RoverP6B said:

All of those are ultimately let down by their 4-cylinder engines. Nice chassis, but not really engines that will thrill at every moment. The S2000 sounds awful. The Esprit, of course, later got a flat-crank turbo V8, which also sounded crap. At least the Exige now has a nice yowling V6.

I think the M3 is let down by its mass, steering and gear change. What's your point?

[anonymous-user]

RoverP6B said:

All of those are ultimately let down by their 4-cylinder engines. Nice chassis, but not really engines that will thrill at every moment. The S2000 sounds awful. The Esprit, of course, later got a flat-crank turbo V8, which also sounded crap. At least the Exige now has a nice yowling V6.

So let me get this straight.

A Caterham, E30 and Elan are let down by their engines...I'm just going to read that again....yes, you did actually write that, wow.

I'm just going to hazard a guess we can add these to the cars you haven't actually driven What would you suggest in a Caterham exactly, an I6 a V12 maybe? The reason these cars are so good and their chassis balance is so good is due to the packaging of the engine.

This barge 535i of yours really must have some heavy modifications.

[havoc]

Y'know, there are days where PH is just TOO funny for words. Particularly when it doesn't mean to be...

I wonder if the 535 will become the next (mapped) 335d? It sounds fantastic, after all...not sure if any of our cars would be able to compare!

[boxerTen]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Agree.

It only takes 2 or 3 simple requirements ... and one finds precious little available: For example: A light-ish (< 1200 kg) mid-engined sports car with a nice 6+ cylinder engine. How hard can that be? Probably the only contender is a V6 Exige, and one could fail it on its engine.

[Toltec]

nickfrog said:

RoverP6B said:

Sure, the DC2 is light and revs to kingdom come, but it's got no torque, it's FWD and a 4-cylinder to boot.

Why would it need torque if it revs? You do understand the basic equation power = torque x RPM, don't you ? You understand that a gearbox is a torque multiplier, surely ?

I am not exaggerating when I say the DC2 is one of those extremely rare cars that gets 100% unanimous feedback as being exceptional from anyone who has driven it on track or on the road. But of course there has to be an "expert" who's probably never seen a track.

Never driven an Integra, but a quick look at a dyno plot makes it look pretty good to me, about 120lbft from 3000rpm whith an increase above 6000rpm to make revving it out really worthwhile. If you compressed it into an engine with a 6000rpm redline it would have to make 180lbft from 2000rpm to 5500rpm, most people would think that pretty reasonable from an N/A engine that size.

I like a good six or v8, not to mention turbo engine, but I can completely see how that engine could be great to use.

[RoverP6B]

I know damn well that power = torque x rpm divided by a constant (5252, isn't it?), but that doesn't stop a car with a fatter torque curve being faster in the real world.

Lotus knew how to engineer a fine cylinder head, that's for sure, but then they stuck it on a standard 4-cylinder iron block (Ford, in the Elan's case).

The E30 M3's engine, if I remember correctly, is the S38 straight six with two cylinders lopped off. It's effective but crude. The Alpina E30s appeal to me far more.

I like crossplane V8s. I've had two of them, and am contemplating four more at some point in the future. The 535i is nice but I'm longing for more power - I find myself driving it at full throttle far more than I'd expected. Mind you, it's making under 70bhp/litre, which makes me wonder if it might not have a lot more in reserve, waiting to be released through better intakes, exhausts, cams etc.

Right now, I think that Porsche going 4-cylinder turbo with the Cockster could be playing right into Lotus's hands. An Evora suddenly looks a whole lot more appealing...

[anonymous-user]

RoverP6B said:

I know damn well that power = torque x rpm divided by a constant (5252, isn't it?), but that doesn't stop a car with a fatter torque curve being faster in the real world.

Lotus knew how to engineer a fine cylinder head, that's for sure, but then they stuck it on a standard 4-cylinder iron block (Ford, in the Elan's case).

The E30 M3's engine, if I remember correctly, is the S38 straight six with two cylinders lopped off. It's effective but crude. The Alpina E30s appeal to me far more.

I like crossplane V8s. I've had two of them, and am contemplating four more at some point in the future. The 535i is nice but I'm longing for more power - I find myself driving it at full throttle far more than I'd expected. Mind you, it's making under 70bhp/litre, which makes me wonder if it might not have a lot more in reserve, waiting to be released through better intakes, exhausts, cams etc.

Right now, I think that Porsche going 4-cylinder turbo with the Cockster could be playing right into Lotus's hands. An Evora suddenly looks a whole lot more appealing...

I suggest you buy a modern automatic diesel, it would suit you very well. More talk of cars you'll never drive let alone own. You really are one of the biggest bullstters on PH.

[RoverP6B]

The basic physics don't change, don't lie. I may never get to drive some of the stuff I comment on, but the essential tenets of configuration, aspiration, layout, where the power is sent etc tell one a lot about how the damn things work.

[anonymous-user]

RoverP6B said:

The basic physics don't change, don't lie. I may never get to drive some of the stuff I comment on, but the essential tenets of configuration, aspiration, layout, where the power is sent etc tell one a lot about how the damn things work.

That's the point, they do, which is why so many people hold them in high esteem.

You don't know, don't understand and refuse to listen to people who do, all this whilst driving a shed. Just stop commenting on things you know fk all about.

[xRIEx]

A.G. said:

So after designing their fine 4 cylinder head, how many cylinders do you imagine the block should have??????

Well, in the case of Jaguar designing a 3 cylinder head (for a V6), it should obviously be put on a V8

[Ozzie Osmond]

xRIEx said:

Well, in the case of Jaguar designing a 3 cylinder head (for a V6), it should obviously be put on a V8

Yes indeed, they jolly well did - and here are some lovely pics of this engineering marvel. Note the spooky lack of engine in and above the red circles, although there's a nice big,plastic cover on top of the cylinder heads to try to conceal their sins....

[DonkeyApple]

A.G. said:

xRIEx said:

A.G. said:

So after designing their fine 4 cylinder head, how many cylinders do you imagine the block should have??????

Well, in the case of Jaguar designing a 3 cylinder head (for a V6), it should obviously be put on a V8

They certainly did but it is hardly the most elegant engineering solution and certainly would not have fitted well with Chapman's "add lightness" ethos.

True but it would have appealed to his far stronger 'add cheapness' ethos.

[Ozzie Osmond]

RoverP6B said:

Right now, I think that Porsche going 4-cylinder turbo with the Cockster could be playing right into Lotus's hands. An Evora suddenly looks a whole lot more appealing...

Apart from the fact it costs 911 money I'm sure you're right! Or if you want to go like-for-like on price you could always go with front of a 20-year old Exige bolted to a Camry engine for some real up-to-date sportscar engineering excellence. Trust me, unless and until some new genuine new product emerges from Norfolk at a sensible price Porsche has sadly got the £40k to £55k sector all to itself. And I wouldn't expect to see a new TVR anywhere near that price bracket either.

If it was easy, everybody would be doing it! Porsches may be the most common larger sportscars on the road but there's a good reason for that, much of which has to do with their engineering. So my car was mass-produced in a mainstream VW factory - do I care? No.

[nickfrog]

RoverP6B said:

I know damn well that power = torque x rpm divided by a constant (5252, isn't it?), but that doesn't stop a car with a fatter torque curve being faster in the real world.
...

Yes it does because the gearing and final drive will be chosen accordingly.
For me the real world is the one where the torque multiplier is used properly. Not sure what real world you live in though.