RE: Porsche 718 Boxster - full details

[PGM]

GroundEffect said:

PGM said:

It is a petrol engine though, able to rev higher, that is where the power band takes over, surely? Torque at bottom, power at top?

That's not how engines work.

OK

[Guvernator]

GroundEffect said:

A torque plateau is a GOOD thing. A power plateau generally isn't.

I'm not an expert in the field so don't fully understand the relationship between the two. All I know is that every car I've driven which has had a torque plateau which starts and finishes early has felt too quick at the bottom end (which makes metering out the throttle at low revs very difficult) and gutless at the top.

[anonymous-user]

Gutting that this cylinder count reduction is going on. Just at the point where I start being able to afford cars like this, large capacity engines with lots of cylinders are becoming harder to find.

[chrispmartha]

Some funny comments on this thread, it seems every new car with a turbo has to be compared with a 10+ year old Subaru Imprezza.

These two cars are not remotely targetted at the same people.

Fwiw i think theyve actually improved the looks of what was already a good looking car, looking forward to seeing the cayman.

As for the engine, the may as well be dirsel comments are funny, im presuming they say that about all turbo 4 pot engines?
Im going to wait till ive driven one to pass proper judgement, one thing it will do is feel a lot faster which will be a big plus point to the target market

[Fire99]

Other than a pretty ghastly colour (which no doubt you can pick a different one ) it's certainly not an ugly car, by modern standards. The front has a hint of Fiat Barchetta about it, and that's not a bad thing..
Interior doesn't look too awful either..

I think the loss of the '6-pot' option is a real tragedy though. With a big dollop of torque at the bottom, I'd wager the cars will feel very different from their 'revvy ' predecessors.

I await the road-test with interest.

[Alex]

All I can say is that I think 6-cylinder 981s are going to hold their value very nicely.

[GroundEffect]

Guvernator said:

GroundEffect said:

A torque plateau is a GOOD thing. A power plateau generally isn't.

I'm not an expert in the field so don't fully understand the relationship between the two. All I know is that every car I've driven which has had a torque plateau which starts and finishes early has felt too quick at the bottom end (which makes metering out the throttle at low revs very difficult) and gutless at the top.

My car has peak torque at 3900rpm. That could be a figure for a fairly boring and docile engine...but it's the 4.0 V8 in my M3 that rattles round to 8400rpm.

The peak torque plateau just means it's constant at that point. The reason it is plateau'd is to protect the transmission.

What you really need to see is the whole torque curve. That is what gives you a feeling for how the engine works and behaves - in the Boxster's case, it may be fairly flat up to 5,000-6,000rpm meaning it will want to rev.

What I'm trying to say: Single data points are useless. Nothing more than pub ammo and armchair expert fodder.

[Hugh Jarse]

DonkeyApple said:

Hugh Jarse said:

Looks good.
206@4,500 - 6,500rpm versus new 280@1,950 - 4,500rpm means in the 2000-3000 range (90%? of driving) power is about doubled. Should keep the TDI generation happy.

That's what I was thinking. What's the actual point in this car using petrol? Just for marketing purposes?

Having the same delivery curve as your company car and local minicab driver just doesn't seem very 'sporty'.

Yes but the reality of driving about is 65 on A-roads and 75 on motorways which means this will be revving very gently and give you a long lasting car. As others said, still goes up to 7000 whenever you want.
Where 350hp can be used on a public road is anyones guess, but thats what the market wants apparently.
Reckon they should do an opposed twin now, just 175hp.
Thanks to the chap who posted the graph!
You can still buy the old ones for £5k that do the old fashioned way so its all good.

[chrispmartha]

Alex said:

All I can say is that I think 6-cylinder 981s are going to hold their value very nicely.

It may work the opposite (its me just being optimistic) what if the majority of boxster drivers want the newer more powerful and faster car? Remember I reckon the majority of Boxster driver neither know or care how many cylinders its got.

Someone in the market for a Boxster may look at a year old one and think i may as well get the newer one, its got better fuel economy and faster

[iMACHOPyou]

Recently been thinking about selling my 986 S. Guess it's probably worth hanging on to.

[Fire99]

chrispmartha said:

Someone in the market for a Boxster may look at a year old one and think i may as well get the newer one, its got better fuel economy and faster

I'd ultimately disagree with that. In the short term maybe, for the average punter, but real world MPG figures for F.I cars can be a long way from book figures and the performance increase is relative. Purists (including me) may trade a tenth or two of 0-60 for the character of a N.A 6-pot, wringing its neck.

[je777]

If you want a turbocharged Porsche for £40k, why not buy a 911 turbo? A lot more power and a six cylinder engine (and it's a Mezger, so reliable).
Or, if you want a Boxster, get a 987 turbocharged - total cost will be about £30k (enough spare for any repairs!) and you'd have a good 400bhp on tap.
Hell, you could probably get a Ruf Boxster for that money.

[DonkeyApple]

Hugh Jarse said:

DonkeyApple said:

Hugh Jarse said:

Looks good.
206@4,500 - 6,500rpm versus new 280@1,950 - 4,500rpm means in the 2000-3000 range (90%? of driving) power is about doubled. Should keep the TDI generation happy.

That's what I was thinking. What's the actual point in this car using petrol? Just for marketing purposes?

Having the same delivery curve as your company car and local minicab driver just doesn't seem very 'sporty'.

Yes but the reality of driving about is 65 on A-roads and 75 on motorways which means this will be revving very gently and give you a long lasting car. As others said, still goes up to 7000 whenever you want.
Where 350hp can be used on a public road is anyones guess, but thats what the market wants apparently.
Reckon they should do an opposed twin now, just 175hp.
Thanks to the chap who posted the graph!
You can still buy the old ones for £5k that do the old fashioned way so its all good.

I absolutely agree and I understand. It's just that it's not really 'sporty' is it? It's more about a durable utility vehicle that can plod along in commuterville. I think you have to ask the question of what is it really doing that a hot hatch or hot diesel isn't doing other than looking more like a sports car?

It's not just a Porsche issue but a question for all manufacturers seeking big sales volumes. They can only achieve these volumes by removing true sportiness and making the cars more and more like normal utility vehicles.

It's probably the case that the under 30s this car is aimed at have very different expectations than slightly older people who maybe have too many experiences of how sporty sports cars used to be. Both their upsides and their downsides. The latter probably being what gave most of them their true character and what made them such a polar choice over a normal utility vehicle.

[chrispmartha]

Fire99 said:

I'd ultimately disagree with that. In the short term maybe, for the average punter, but real world MPG figures for F.I cars can be a long way from book figures and the performance increase is relative. Purists (including me) may trade a tenth or two of 0-60 for the character of a N.A 6-pot, wringing its neck.

To be fair my point is that 'purists' are not the main buyers of brand new boxsters

[Alex]

What annoys me, is we driving enthusiasts must suffer down-sized turbo-charged engines because of the flawed EU CO2 emissions test. Turbo-engines perform well in this test, because most of time they are off-boost. In the real world, I'd be amazed if the new engines are more economical than the old NA engines, and if anyone actually achieves the official combined figure of 40.9mg without driving like a granny, I'll eat my shoes.

[chrispmartha]

DonkeyApple said:

I think you have to ask the question of what is it really doing that a hot hatch or hot diesel isn't doing other than looking more like a sports car?

Really? you can't see what a bespoke built (as in built to be a sports car from the off!) open top sports car with a mid engined RWD layout might offer over a Golf GTD?

[macky17]

Fish said:

Liking the new looks, don't like the logo it is a bit contrived.. I think for most road driving the turbo will be better. We rarely get chance to wring the neck of our NA cars however I think max power at 6500 will feel limiting....

Overall I still think it will be a fantastic car. The stigma of a £50k car with a 4 pot is about done...

Is it? I'm just getting started. Porsche may rely on the ignorance of the masses to justify a price INCREASE with a lesser power unit but us PHers are not supposed to be so easily ripped off...

I'd buy an S - in about 5 years when they're £15k or less. That would be about right.

[PhantomPH]

DonkeyApple said:

It's probably the case that the under 30s this car is aimed at have very different expectations than slightly older people ...

I think you are miles off if you think this car is aimed at under 30's. How many have £50k+ to spend on a Porsche? Under 30's will likely be starting to try and get on the housing ladder, start families etc. This is aimed at the late 30s+ - perhaps even early 40's (who wish they were still under 30!). People who now have a few spare quid and the earning power to afford it. People who don't want suspension that tries to break your back and people who want creature comforts for their commute.

(not referring to the above comment) but there is an incredible amount of crap being talked on this thread. Drive it and if you like it and can afford one, then buy it. What does it matter if it's powered by wishes and dreams???

Edited by PhantomPH on Wednesday 27th January 11:16

[chrispmartha]

macky17 said:

Is it? I'm just getting started. Porsche may rely on the ignorance of the masses to justify a price INCREASE with a lesser power unit but us PHers are not supposed to be so easily ripped off...

I'd buy an S - in about 5 years when they're £15k or less. That would be about right.

Erm, it's got more power hasn't it?

[Fire99]

chrispmartha said:

Fire99 said:

I'd ultimately disagree with that. In the short term maybe, for the average punter, but real world MPG figures for F.I cars can be a long way from book figures and the performance increase is relative. Purists (including me) may trade a tenth or two of 0-60 for the character of a N.A 6-pot, wringing its neck.

To be fair my point is that 'purists' are not the main buyers of brand new boxsters

Without wanting to be pedantic, if they put a 6-pot in it, I'd be tempted.. But I do see your point..