Focus RS or Mustang V8?

[Ali_T]

Not slow, but scrappy. My Alfa has 240bhp and 251lbft through the front wheels and that's bad enough. Hell, my old EP3 Civic was bad enough with 100 lbft less.

[Matt Harper]

aeropilot said:

I've seen this talked about on forums and some of the monthly auto mags even a few years back - the new EPA regs was going to put an end to the 'new gen' hemi, the Coyote and even possibly GM's LS, much beyond 2017/2018.

And yes, your right, Ford were long term planning when the showed the new Ford GT with a V6.

I don't think it is EPA as much as Federal CAFE Mandate. I think Ford have run out of development room with regard to making the 5.0 Coyote any more fuel efficient while simultaneously keeping up in the hp race with GM's LS/LT and Chrysler's Eagle/Apache 8 cyl pushrod engines that can more easily utilize cylinder deactivation to satisfy CAFE without compromising power outputs.

Here's what I suspect will come to pass in M/Y 2018. Ford will discontinue utilization of Coyote in everything but van/light commercial applications and transition Mustang GT to Ecoboost V6. I suspect they will continue to manufacture the Voodoo (GT350) engine in very limited numbers, as they do now, so that it avoids CAFE regulation, meaning that from 2018 an 8cyl Mustang is going to be a $50k+ car. Gasoline V8 equipped F-150 will be a thing of the past.

So, get 'em while they're hot chaps, because in a couple of years time the landscape will look quite different, I suspect.

[HD Adam]

Matt Harper said:

aeropilot said:

I've seen this talked about on forums and some of the monthly auto mags even a few years back - the new EPA regs was going to put an end to the 'new gen' hemi, the Coyote and even possibly GM's LS, much beyond 2017/2018.

And yes, your right, Ford were long term planning when the showed the new Ford GT with a V6.

I don't think it is EPA as much as Federal CAFE Mandate. I think Ford have run out of development room with regard to making the 5.0 Coyote any more fuel efficient while simultaneously keeping up in the hp race with GM's LS/LT and Chrysler's Eagle/Apache 8 cyl pushrod engines that can more easily utilize cylinder deactivation to satisfy CAFE without compromising power outputs.

Here's what I suspect will come to pass in M/Y 2018. Ford will discontinue utilization of Coyote in everything but van/light commercial applications and transition Mustang GT to Ecoboost V6. I suspect they will continue to manufacture the Voodoo (GT350) engine in very limited numbers, as they do now, so that it avoids CAFE regulation, meaning that from 2018 an 8cyl Mustang is going to be a $50k+ car. Gasoline V8 equipped F-150 will be a thing of the past.

So, get 'em while they're hot chaps, because in a couple of years time the landscape will look quite different, I suspect.

Not sure if they will as they already have the GT Ecoboost V6 ready to drop in but making the Coyote into an Ecoboost V8 would probably up the power & increase the economy for the CAFE numbers.

You never know.

[croyde]

kapiteinlangzaam said:

Matt Harper said:

So, get 'em while they're hot chaps, because in a couple of years time the landscape will look quite different, I suspect.

Agree, I feel like im jumping in right toward the end of when such cars are going to possible at attainable prices

Makes me happy/sad in equal measure.

My feeling as well. Had to get that Ford 5.0 after my 4.6 because I felt that they were not long for this world.

[david_b]

Matt Harper said:

So, get 'em while they're hot chaps, because in a couple of years time the landscape will look quite different, I suspect.

Probably true - I'm just hoping the car is better than Ford's organisation and logistics ability, having ordered the thing over 12 months ago mine is still sitting in Baltimore waiting for a ship... I should be stockpiling fuel while it's cheap I suppose

[Matt Harper]

HD Adam said:

Not sure if they will as they already have the GT Ecoboost V6 ready to drop in but making the Coyote into an Ecoboost V8 would probably up the power & increase the economy for the CAFE numbers.

You never know.

Interesting - I can see how the upping of the power bit via turbocharging (the boosting bit) would be achieved, but how do they apply the "Eco" bit to what is effectively a maxed-out power plant, from a developmental point of view?

[HD Adam]

Matt Harper said:

HD Adam said:

Not sure if they will as they already have the GT Ecoboost V6 ready to drop in but making the Coyote into an Ecoboost V8 would probably up the power & increase the economy for the CAFE numbers.

You never know.

Interesting - I can see how the upping of the power bit via turbocharging (the boosting bit) would be achieved, but how do they apply the "Eco" bit to what is effectively a maxed-out power plant, from a developmental point of view?

Witchcraft

The direct injection means that they can run some very lean mixtures during part throttle.
With the independent intake & exhaust cams coupled with the GDI, the possibilities are endless.

[Matt Harper]

HD Adam said:

Witchcraft

The direct injection means that they can run some very lean mixtures during part throttle.
With the independent intake & exhaust cams coupled with the GDI, the possibilities are endless.

Yeah, but if they coulda done it, they woulda done it. No?

[kambites]

Is the V8 not direct injection already, then?

[skyrover]

No ford's V6 and V8 engines are not direct injected.

http://www.thecarconnection.com/news/1041590_why-n...

ford said:

"When the program started, it [the new Duratec in the Mustang] was a direct-injection engine," said Greg T. Johnson, a powertrain integration manager whose responsibilities include both engines. But according to Johnson, Ford powertrain engineers eventually realized that leaving the DI aspect out of the design allowed charge-cooling advantages—allowing engineers to better optimize intake air temps for fuel economy, power, and emissions.

Typically, direct injection allows better control over knock, enabling a higher compression ratio, which does help optimize combustion. "Yeah, it helped us a little bit with knock, but it wasn't that much for all the cost," said Johnson, referring to all the more expensive parts, such as high-pressure fuel-system components, needed for DI. Ford even brought a DI version of the engine through to the point of running prototypes, "but in the end it didn't make business sense," Johnson summed."

[Krikkit]

DI isn't the be-all and end-all with decent port injection, as the above proves.

Of course if it were money-no-object you'd probably have both, but the software and hardware costs would be mind-boggling.

[Lowtimer]

Plus with DI there's always the risk of oil sludge building up behind the inlet valves, unless your breather arrangement is absolutely perfect and remains that way.

[kambites]

Didn't someone recently release a mainstream engine with both? Or did I imagine that?

[Lowtimer]

If so, I shudder to think what the plumbing is like

[GroundEffect]

Lowtimer said:

If so, I shudder to think what the plumbing is like

PFI + GDI will be common in the future.

[Johnnytheboy]

irocfan said:

RoverP6B said:

GM has the Corvette and Camaro. No direct Focus RS/Golf R rival, though.

Astra VXR?

As usual Vauxhall are selling a car that directly competes with the last generation of its competitor.

[unsprung]

Johnnytheboy said:

irocfan said:

RoverP6B said:

GM has the Corvette and Camaro. No direct Focus RS/Golf R rival, though.

Astra VXR?

As usual Vauxhall are selling a car that directly competes with the last generation of its competitor.

While the performance ranges of General Motors and Ford are being compared, and having mentioned already the Ford GT, we may as well toss in the Ford Raptor.

GM offers a performance-minded "option package" on its pickup trucks and SUVs, but nothing at all competitive with the mental levels of kit baked into the Ford Raptor. Historically, I've not been an ardent fan of Ford or too keen on trucks, but, hey: credit where credit is due.

[Matt Harper]

Ford have already officially announced that the Raptor will not have a V8 motor in 2017 - being committed to 3.5l V6 Ecoboost - which will end up in Mustang GT too. You mark my words.

I suspect this is not a case of market research telling them buyers don't want 8 cyl GTs and trucks anymore (GM and Dodge prove otherwise), but the plain fact that they can't make Coyote and Triton engines more fuel efficient (CAFE requirement) without decreasing power outputs.

[unsprung]

Regarding the V6 that will go into the next Raptor... It produces more horsepower and similar torque (versus the outgoing V8), and the truck itself has been lightened by 500 pounds or so. Not bad news.

Different sound? Sure. Driving characteristics? Perhaps different at launch. And perhaps different when accelerating out of a curve.

Some interesting comments beneath this article, including some harsh words about direct injection.

[HD Adam]

Matt Harper said:

HD Adam said:

Witchcraft

The direct injection means that they can run some very lean mixtures during part throttle.
With the independent intake & exhaust cams coupled with the GDI, the possibilities are endless.

Yeah, but if they coulda done it, they woulda done it. No?

You can bet they already have as the tech is a straight swap onto the Coyote and they will see how the wind blows regarding CAFE legislation and customer demand.

The Ecoboost I4 & V6 are already in the bag. The V8 will be in the wings if they can't sell a V6 Raptor or Mustang.

Mark my words.