FIAT 500 - gearbox failure at 30,000 miles. Dealer sorts it?

[Craikeybaby]

Moominator said:

gtidriver said:

Does the car have any/full service history with FIAT or has it been serviced out of the dealer network.???

This. Plus (eg) two stamps in three years isnt the best FSH.

500s are on 18,000 mile/2 year service intervals.

[Rick1.8t]

Just buy this, get it fitted for about the same and be done with it - At around £200.00 why bother losing sleep over it.
- http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ford-ka-fiat-500-gearbox...ZYAAOSw3ydVyKYh

It looks like a recon box is £250ish - We just went for a box from a breakers and the KA was back on the road in less than a week from when it failed.

[Blaster72]

I love how the OP has diagnosed a specific bearing just from a visual check of a few small bits of debris in a sample of gearbox oil.

Anyway, it really shouldn't fail at 30k. Service record or not, it's not like there's anything in the service schedule for the gearbox anyway.

Fiat however are in the right, they need to remove and tear down the gearbox before they can decide what's wrong and what they will pay for.

If it were my car I'd be taking it to a gearbox specialist. For a few hundred they should be able to sort out any issues,

[Rick1.8t]

Blaster72 said:

I love how the OP has diagnosed a specific bearing just from a visual check of a few small bits of debris in a sample of gearbox oil.

Anyway, it really shouldn't fail at 30k. Service record or not, it's not like there's anything in the service schedule for the gearbox anyway.

Fiat however are in the right, they need to remove and tear down the gearbox before they can decide what's wrong and what they will pay for.

If it were my car I'd be taking it to a gearbox specialist. For a few hundred they should be able to sort out any issues,

It is just a 500 though, why piss about getting the car transported, waiting for a specialist to delve into the box and then get parts for refurb and refit when a box from breakers is £100-£250?

If it was a more complicated / expensive car with a more valuable gearbox that you struggle to source then sure - get it to the specialist but it seems like hard work when ebay is full of cheap gearboxes.

[PhillipM]

Blaster72 said:

I love how the OP has diagnosed a specific bearing just from a visual check of a few small bits of debris in a sample of gearbox oil.

It's very easy to tell which area of a gearbox the noise is generated from with a simple check, the oil debris was just to confirm to be honest. I have rebuilt quite a few gearboxes, I'll just rebuild this one*, it'll cost less than Fiat are going to charge just to diagnose the 'box and then possibly tell him to ps off anyway, but that's not the point.


*I ain't paying £250 for a 'refreshed' gearbox from ebay that's just had a steam clean and a zinc plated end cap fitted, they ought to be banned from trading tbfh)

Edited by PhillipM on Wednesday 10th February 22:01

[Rick1.8t]

PhillipM said:

It's very easy to tell which area of a gearbox the noise is generated from with a simple check, the oil debris was just to confirm to be honest. I have rebuilt quite a few gearboxes, I'll just rebuild this one*, it'll cost less than Fiat are going to charge just to diagnose the 'box and then possibly tell him to ps off anyway, but that's not the point.


*I ain't paying £250 for a 'refreshed' gearbox from ebay that's just had a steam clean and a zinc plated end cap fitted, they ought to be banned from trading tbfh)

Edited by PhillipM on Wednesday 10th February 22:01

Well dont buy a 'refurbed' one then, buy a dirty one out of a car instead mr paranoid (as I say, just like I did for around £150 quid)

Or you could arse about rebuilding it yourself and however long that will take and cost... not got anything better to do. Like I say, the OH's KA was back on the road in less than a week not sitting in bits with me taking ages pissing about rebuilding the box... nuts.

Edited by Rick1.8t on Wednesday 10th February 22:12

[PhillipM]

Weeks? I'll rebuild a gearbox in half a day...and I know I haven't just fitted a secondhand box with the same problem to his car.

[Rick1.8t]

PhillipM said:

Weeks? I'll rebuild a gearbox in half a day...and I know I haven't just fitted a secondhand box with the same problem to his car.

Who mentioned weeks? I said the car was back on the road in less than a week from gearbox failure, not that it would take a week to rebuild - How long has this car alread been off the road leaving the owner without transport while you extract oil for analysis?

Are you retired? If not I would rather spend half a day doing anything else but rebuild a pos fiat 500 gearbox but each to their own....

Sounds like you have it all sorted anyway so this thread is all much of muchness now - Crack that haynes manual out and get the anorak on!

[PhillipM]

Rick1.8t said:

Are you retired? If not I would rather spend half a day doing anything else but rebuild a pos fiat 500 gearbox but each to their own....

Sounds like you have it all sorted anyway so this thread is all much of muchness now - Crack that haynes manual out and get the anorak on!

I'd rather not spend any time at all on a POS Fiat 500 with a fked 'box, but if you read the thread you might realise it's not f***ing mine, but since it looks like I'll be spending half a day removing and refitting one anyway the other half rebuilding it is hardly a chore now is it?

[PhillipM]

Rick1.8t said:

How long has this car alread been off the road leaving the owner without transport while you extract oil for analysis?

As long as it took for him to go back and forth with Fiat about it. He has 2 other cars, I don't think he minds. Well, he might since his Clio just got ran into, but I think he'll probably buy another small runaround that's probably not going to be another Fiat.

[Kolbenkopp]

PhillipM said:

Basically that means we could take it down, pay for diagnosis, pay for the gearbox removing, for Fiat to turn around and go 'yes, manufacturing defect, but out of warranty, sorry' - in which case we're no better off but the car is now stuck at the dealers with no gearbox and a fair bill.

Ah, OK -- makes perfect sense that way, reading that you are capable of fixing the thing yourself. I'd still let them know your reasoning and give them some 'consumer feedback' on their product. Never know what comes out of it and it's only a stamp and a few minutes to write a letter.

[PhillipM]

Kolbenkopp said:

Ah, OK -- makes perfect sense that way, reading that you are capable of fixing the thing yourself. I'd still let them know your reasoning and give them some 'consumer feedback' on their product. Never know what comes out of it and it's only a stamp and a few minutes to write a letter.

Yeah, diagnosing or doing the work was never the issue - more whether we should be doing it at all!
And as many have said, it is out of warranty, still disappointing mind.

[ToothbrushMan]

Fiat gearboxes=chocolate fireguard

[PhillipM]

Kolbenkopp said:

Ah, OK -- makes perfect sense that way, reading that you are capable of fixing the thing yourself. I'd still let them know your reasoning and give them some 'consumer feedback' on their product. Never know what comes out of it and it's only a stamp and a few minutes to write a letter.

The response to that was basically 'Thanks, we can see your reasoning/concerns, good luck'


Anyway, out of the dead ends, took the 'box off this evening, and as suspected, the input shaft bearing is mashed (I must be lucky eh? Mister Internet Expert told me you can't diagnose a gearbox like that.... ) - the inner race is all spalled/pitted where it's picked up - the rest of the box and the selectors/synchros looks like they've survived the bits of swarf though so hopefully a good wash down and check over will mean the bulk of it is reusable, just new bearings and seals.
Thankfully the bearing that's failed is a standard off-the-shelf unit (6204-2RSH), nothing fancy or bespoke, and the input seals and diff seals are easy to get hold of too, so the local suppliers can have me one for saturday morning.
New clutch going in whilst it's off and a set of brakes discs and pads as it's due some in a couple of k anyway and should be back on the road.

Edited by PhillipM on Thursday 11th February 22:28

[Blaster72]

Are you really going to fix exactly the same bearing that already failed once in 30k? Isn't there an upgrade one available?

Any clues as to why it failed?

[PhillipM]

I'll just an SKF equivalent from the local bearing place, same with the rest. I didn't have much of a look at the bearing itself as it was late when I dropped the 'box out, will have a good look when I clean the rest down tommorow.

[TooMany2cvs]

Blaster72 said:

Are you really going to fix exactly the same bearing that already failed once in 30k? Isn't there an upgrade one available?

The bearing part number specifies the sizes. The brand sets the quality. It might have failed because of inadequate lubrication - or it might have failed because it was cheap rubbish...

Any brand on the dead one?

[Blaster72]

Good result OP, pretty shoddy for it to fail at such low miles. Was it much of a job to get apart?

[PhillipM]

Blaster72 said:

Good result OP, pretty shoddy for it to fail at such low miles. Was it much of a job to get apart?

Not too bad with all the bolts being fairly new to be honest so nothing really stuck bar seized exhaust bolts but that's normal. Worst bit was getting the front bumper and it's clips off as you have to take some of the crash structure out to get the box off!
One of the driveshafts made me swear as it wouldn't come out but they're held in with a spring clip and there was swarf from the bearing in the groove. Fortunately I have a rather large rawhide mallet that's good for persuading things....

[Blaster72]

Can't beat a big hammer!