RE: Jaguar F-Pace: Driven

[TurboHatchback]

jamieduff1981 said:

I'll answer. The reason why you are wrong is as follows:

You use a derogatory stereotype to imply that anyone who might buy a car like the F-Pace to be uninterested in driving. To back this up, you caste yourself as a young, enthusiastic male with no need for such a mum-focused car because you are interested in driving.

I do no such thing. To illustrate that a car can be good but appeal or not appeal to different people based on their needs and wants I pick one example customer for whom the car would be perfect which without picking a named individual by definition must be a stereotype. I then state that for someone such as myself it holds no appeal which is a simple fact. Presumably you aren't seriously suggesting that someone with no need or desire for any of the advantages an SUV offers, primary interests in both engineering and driving and limited financial means (as most mid-20s have) should buy a £50k mid-size family SUV, no matter how good it is?

jamieduff1981 said:

My wife and I are better petrolheads than you are.

Err, ok. Good for you.

jamieduff1981 said:

So to sum up, what you said is a load of bks purely intended to make you sound like an uncompromising PHer. A turbohatchback isn't especially PH - it's just a warmed up shopping car. A compromise for people who can only afford one car. Why a young guy interested in driving would want a hatchback is unclear, when you could be rorting around in a sportscar being so interested in driving and unburdened by responsibilities as you make yourself sound.

No, it's a sentence containing one opinion and one fact, nothing more. Does the fact that you like it and I happened to pick one stereotypical ideal customer that doesn't fit your self image really bother you that much? I couldn't care less what some stranger on the internet thinks about my lifestyle or car choices. Not that it has any relevance to the thread but if you want to belittle posters based on their choice of car at the very least read their garage and pick the right ones, I'm sure there's plenty of fodder for you in there.

DonkeyApple said:

Of course, while this car will be bought pretty much for housewives living in affluent parts of the U.K. and by fashion conscious men of possibly questionable sexuality, I think the important thing for people reliant on stereotypes is that it is much less likely to attract the immigrant types than the German luxury marque. You aren't going to get that many 'off-white' chaps tooling around in them. So there's some solace there for your type.

Not wanting a mid-sized family SUV now equates to being a racist, that's a fascinating leap of logic you've managed there.

Anyway this whole discussion seems to have gone bizarrely of course. For anyone who likes SUVs and is thinking of buying one I would heartily endorse them buying an F-Pace, it's more appealing than most of its competition and I approve of supporting the British car industry. The fact that I don't like this sort of car and don't want one is not a direct personal insult to anyone's virility.

[jamieduff1981]

TurboHatchback said:

jamieduff1981 said:

I'll answer. The reason why you are wrong is as follows:

You use a derogatory stereotype to imply that anyone who might buy a car like the F-Pace to be uninterested in driving. To back this up, you caste yourself as a young, enthusiastic male with no need for such a mum-focused car because you are interested in driving.

I do no such thing. To illustrate that a car can be good but appeal or not appeal to different people based on their needs and wants I pick one example customer for whom the car would be perfect which without picking a named individual by definition must be a stereotype. I then state that for someone such as myself it holds no appeal which is a simple fact. Presumably you aren't seriously suggesting that someone with no need or desire for any of the advantages an SUV offers, primary interests in both engineering and driving and limited financial means (as most mid-20s have) should buy a £50k mid-size family SUV, no matter how good it is?

jamieduff1981 said:

My wife and I are better petrolheads than you are.

Err, ok. Good for you.

jamieduff1981 said:

So to sum up, what you said is a load of bks purely intended to make you sound like an uncompromising PHer. A turbohatchback isn't especially PH - it's just a warmed up shopping car. A compromise for people who can only afford one car. Why a young guy interested in driving would want a hatchback is unclear, when you could be rorting around in a sportscar being so interested in driving and unburdened by responsibilities as you make yourself sound.

No, it's a sentence containing one opinion and one fact, nothing more. Does the fact that you like it and I happened to pick one stereotypical ideal customer that doesn't fit your self image really bother you that much? I couldn't care less what some stranger on the internet thinks about my lifestyle or car choices. Not that it has any relevance to the thread but if you want to belittle posters based on their choice of car at the very least read their garage and pick the right ones, I'm sure there's plenty of fodder for you in there.

DonkeyApple said:

Of course, while this car will be bought pretty much for housewives living in affluent parts of the U.K. and by fashion conscious men of possibly questionable sexuality, I think the important thing for people reliant on stereotypes is that it is much less likely to attract the immigrant types than the German luxury marque. You aren't going to get that many 'off-white' chaps tooling around in them. So there's some solace there for your type.

Not wanting a mid-sized family SUV now equates to being a racist, that's a fascinating leap of logic you've managed there.

Anyway this whole discussion seems to have gone bizarrely of course. For anyone who likes SUVs and is thinking of buying one I would heartily endorse them buying an F-Pace, it's more appealing than most of its competition and I approve of supporting the British car industry. The fact that I don't like this sort of car and don't want one is not a direct personal insult to anyone's virility.

How can you fail to see an irony in your own posts?

I'm only using your own flawed logic based upon uninformed conjecture back against you. I wouldn't get upset about it because it's not as if it's robust or makes any sense.

[DonkeyApple]

TurboHatchback said:

jamieduff1981 said:

I'll answer. The reason why you are wrong is as follows:

You use a derogatory stereotype to imply that anyone who might buy a car like the F-Pace to be uninterested in driving. To back this up, you caste yourself as a young, enthusiastic male with no need for such a mum-focused car because you are interested in driving.

I do no such thing. To illustrate that a car can be good but appeal or not appeal to different people based on their needs and wants I pick one example customer for whom the car would be perfect which without picking a named individual by definition must be a stereotype. I then state that for someone such as myself it holds no appeal which is a simple fact. Presumably you aren't seriously suggesting that someone with no need or desire for any of the advantages an SUV offers, primary interests in both engineering and driving and limited financial means (as most mid-20s have) should buy a £50k mid-size family SUV, no matter how good it is?

jamieduff1981 said:

My wife and I are better petrolheads than you are.

Err, ok. Good for you.

jamieduff1981 said:

So to sum up, what you said is a load of bks purely intended to make you sound like an uncompromising PHer. A turbohatchback isn't especially PH - it's just a warmed up shopping car. A compromise for people who can only afford one car. Why a young guy interested in driving would want a hatchback is unclear, when you could be rorting around in a sportscar being so interested in driving and unburdened by responsibilities as you make yourself sound.

No, it's a sentence containing one opinion and one fact, nothing more. Does the fact that you like it and I happened to pick one stereotypical ideal customer that doesn't fit your self image really bother you that much? I couldn't care less what some stranger on the internet thinks about my lifestyle or car choices. Not that it has any relevance to the thread but if you want to belittle posters based on their choice of car at the very least read their garage and pick the right ones, I'm sure there's plenty of fodder for you in there.

DonkeyApple said:

Of course, while this car will be bought pretty much for housewives living in affluent parts of the U.K. and by fashion conscious men of possibly questionable sexuality, I think the important thing for people reliant on stereotypes is that it is much less likely to attract the immigrant types than the German luxury marque. You aren't going to get that many 'off-white' chaps tooling around in them. So there's some solace there for your type.

Not wanting a mid-sized family SUV now equates to being a racist, that's a fascinating leap of logic you've managed there.

Anyway this whole discussion seems to have gone bizarrely of course. For anyone who likes SUVs and is thinking of buying one I would heartily endorse them buying an F-Pace, it's more appealing than most of its competition and I approve of supporting the British car industry. The fact that I don't like this sort of car and don't want one is not a direct personal insult to anyone's virility.

Sorry. It's just that 'ists rarely just have the one ist but a collection.

NP&E has tended to highlight that the blokes who have problems with women driving expensive or big cars seem to have a problem with other groups that don't seem to know their place in society.

Incidentally, the most common type of SUV for a Cotswold's housewife is an old Disco 2 or one of the cheap, reliable Korean/Japanese 4x4.

[gizlaroc]

TurboHatchback said:

jamieduff1981 said:

I'll answer. The reason why you are wrong is as follows:

You use a derogatory stereotype to imply that anyone who might buy a car like the F-Pace to be uninterested in driving. To back this up, you caste yourself as a young, enthusiastic male with no need for such a mum-focused car because you are interested in driving.

I do no such thing. To illustrate that a car can be good but appeal or not appeal to different people based on their needs and wants I pick one example customer for whom the car would be perfect which without picking a named individual by definition must be a stereotype. I then state that for someone such as myself it holds no appeal which is a simple fact. Presumably you aren't seriously suggesting that someone with no need or desire for any of the advantages an SUV offers, primary interests in both engineering and driving and limited financial means (as most mid-20s have) should buy a £50k mid-size family SUV, no matter how good it is?

jamieduff1981 said:

My wife and I are better petrolheads than you are.

Err, ok. Good for you.

jamieduff1981 said:

So to sum up, what you said is a load of bks purely intended to make you sound like an uncompromising PHer. A turbohatchback isn't especially PH - it's just a warmed up shopping car. A compromise for people who can only afford one car. Why a young guy interested in driving would want a hatchback is unclear, when you could be rorting around in a sportscar being so interested in driving and unburdened by responsibilities as you make yourself sound.

No, it's a sentence containing one opinion and one fact, nothing more. Does the fact that you like it and I happened to pick one stereotypical ideal customer that doesn't fit your self image really bother you that much? I couldn't care less what some stranger on the internet thinks about my lifestyle or car choices. Not that it has any relevance to the thread but if you want to belittle posters based on their choice of car at the very least read their garage and pick the right ones, I'm sure there's plenty of fodder for you in there.

DonkeyApple said:

Of course, while this car will be bought pretty much for housewives living in affluent parts of the U.K. and by fashion conscious men of possibly questionable sexuality, I think the important thing for people reliant on stereotypes is that it is much less likely to attract the immigrant types than the German luxury marque. You aren't going to get that many 'off-white' chaps tooling around in them. So there's some solace there for your type.

Not wanting a mid-sized family SUV now equates to being a racist, that's a fascinating leap of logic you've managed there.

Anyway this whole discussion seems to have gone bizarrely of course. For anyone who likes SUVs and is thinking of buying one I would heartily endorse them buying an F-Pace, it's more appealing than most of its competition and I approve of supporting the British car industry. The fact that I don't like this sort of car and don't want one is not a direct personal insult to anyone's virility.

I thought maybe you didn't have a chip on your shoulder about SUVs, maybe we had read your reply wrong and presumed you were having a pop when in reality you were not.
Had a quick look at your recent posts.

This is what you posted in a thread with someone asking for opinions on SUVs his other half had been looking at....

TurboHatchback said:

Why on earth are you looking at 'SUVs' when you live in London and plan to use it just for motorway journeys and town driving? Just talk some sense in to your other half and get a proper saloon or estate.

So no, just another member with a strange hatred towards a car that doesn't interest them.

[jonathan collard]

Well I am lucky enough to have already ordered one of these - indeed I was the first to do so at my local dealer back in Jan 2015. In addition we also have a LR Disco Sport coming next month so I will have a first hand perspective of comparing the two; which are both basically the same under the skin. I am p/xing a Porsche Cayenne Diesel which whilst fabulous to drive (well apart from 1st gear take off which is very poorly calibrated to the torque curve of a great engine), the biggest issue is to quote my wife "its pig ugly". In fact so unappealing, she chooses to drive a 12 year old LR Disco 2 instead. Trust me, that is saying something from a 100% target market of "Surrey Yummy Mummy". We just sold her RR Sport and so it could be said we are loyal to the Jaguar/LR marque. In reality, other than them both being made in UK, we don't give a monkeys and the real reason we are getting these two are (I) the new RR Sport and RR Vogue are now too big to park ANYWHERE without risk of door dings (II) they are too blinking expensive now with RR Sport gone up from circa £50k to £70k and (III) BIK tax is punitive so the 2.0ltr engines help reduce money taken from my pocket and given to HMRC. For sure, I like the appeal of not worrying if my wife can see over traffic and also the theory she is "saver" in snow and heavy rain. Again, if I want to head down a "green lane" its the old Disco that will be used; without the rear seats its also as big a load area as a small transit van and bikes can be transported standing up!. I wish Jag/ LR well as retaining money in this country is vital right now. Whilst we all love the strength of German engineering, do I really care if the BMW X5 will out drag me at the lights; heck no, I'm way past 40 and have track car to burn rubber and testosterone in.

[Pintofbest]

jonathan collard said:

In addition we also have a LR Disco Sport coming next month so I will have a first hand perspective of comparing the two; which are both basically the same under the skin.

Is that part true? I thought it was an extension of the XE architecture?

[DonkeyApple]

Pintofbest said:

jonathan collard said:

In addition we also have a LR Disco Sport coming next month so I will have a first hand perspective of comparing the two; which are both basically the same under the skin.

Is that part true? I thought it was an extension of the XE architecture?

That is interesting as I also thought they had nothing in common in terms of metalwork?

[Dan_1981]

DonkeyApple said:

Pintofbest said:

jonathan collard said:

In addition we also have a LR Disco Sport coming next month so I will have a first hand perspective of comparing the two; which are both basically the same under the skin.

Is that part true? I thought it was an extension of the XE architecture?

That is interesting as I also thought they had nothing in common in terms of metalwork?

They do not share a platform.

[oldtimer2]

Dan_1981 said:

DonkeyApple said:

Pintofbest said:

jonathan collard said:

In addition we also have a LR Disco Sport coming next month so I will have a first hand perspective of comparing the two; which are both basically the same under the skin.

Is that part true? I thought it was an extension of the XE architecture?

That is interesting as I also thought they had nothing in common in terms of metalwork?

They do not share a platform.

The Discovery Sport has a steel, welded body in white and shares its technology with the Range Rover Evoque; both are built in Halewood, Liverpool.

The F-Pace has an aluminium, glued and riveted b-i-w and shares its technology with the XE and the XF. It is built at Solihull on the same line as the XE and Range Rover Sport (I believe). I also believe that it is entirely possible that similar facilities are to be installed at Castle Bromwich to provide both extra capacity and the flexibility to respond to whatever demand pattern emerges. JLR have also hinted that yet another Range Rover will be built sharing its platform with the F-Pace, that will be smaller than the Range Rover Sport (because it is too big for some) but larger than the Evoque. It would not surprise me if the Defender replacement also appears based off the same platform and possibly a larger version based nf the bigger new Discovery we have yet to see. It appears that the Jaguar XE and F-Pace were launched from Solihull to get to market quicker than would otherwise be possible.

What they do share is use of the 2 litre Ingenium engine, similar front and rear suspension designs and interior stuff like infotainment systems.

Edited by oldtimer2 on Monday 1st February 16:35

[Oilchange]

I would be interested to know how things go with the two side by side.
Can you keep us informed?

jonathan collard said:

Well I am lucky enough to have already ordered one of these - indeed I was the first to do so at my local dealer back in Jan 2015. In addition we also have a LR Disco Sport coming next month so I will have a first hand perspective of comparing the two;

[silent ninja]

I saw a white one and even though I normally don't like white cars, it looked awesome

Jaguar are designing original cars with an original image incorporating their heritage and identity. Yet so many Brits object. Inferiority complex alert. I would take a Jaguar over a German rival any day. They design beautiful cars that drive better than rivals.

Edited by silent ninja on Monday 1st February 19:04

[craste]

JLR are on a mission at the moment!

Doing really well and its great for the country - why anybody would choose a 3 over an XE (excluding M versions) is beyond me.

New F-Page will wipe the floor withe the competition as well - just on looks alone its the nicest!

Well done JLR!!

[Burwood]

i will concede it is a handsome SUV and the interior looks well made and modern too. I wonder how well the 184hp 2L unit will cope with all that weight.

[anonymous-user]

TurboHatchback said:

RenOHH said:

TurboHatchback said:

TurboHatchback said:

Every car is a compromise at the end of the day and we all pick that which best suits our wants and needs. If I was a rich housewife in the Cotsworlds who needed to drive children to school, tow ponies around and look good for the neighbors then this would be spot on. For a youngish single bloke who likes driving there's nothing here to appeal.

Pray do tell which part of the section you highlighted you consider to be incorrect?

I don't know how you can make that statement (bolded) in the first place, but also defend it when challenged as if you are definitely correct! Companies quite rightly spend gargantuan sums of money to understand their current customers, and more money again to understand customers they would like to have. Your statement is quite wide of the mark so that was the reason you were called names. You've generalised massively and based both your assumptions off the world as you see it. I think you'd be surprised if you went to a focus group and saw what motivates people to buy a certain car, and how that differs from stereotypes such as yours above.

Read the words as they are actually written, which part do you disagree with? I neither stated nor implied that Cotsworlds housewives are the the sole target demographic and it seems fairly clear that young single male petrolheads are not a significant target demographic (most of us couldn't afford one even if we were interested). Do you disagree that the F-Pace would be a good choice for the first particular example person I chose or do you think it should appeal to the second?

I think I made it quite clear what I don't agree with. Read your own words back to yourself! You said young single male who likes driving, not petrolhead. There are people who say they like driving that have no interest in the dynamics of the car at all. They like driving for all sorts of reasons that you do not understand because you are you, and you like to get X out of driving, while someone else wants to get Y.

I have seen young single males at market research events who say they like driving, and their car is a diesel X5. Like I said before, you are forming judgement from a couple of stereotypes from a UK perspective of the world as you see it.

In other countries car ownership demographics can be very different to our own.

[Pothole]

oldtimer2 said:

The Discovery Sport has a steel, welded body in white and shares its technology with the Range Rover Evoque; both are built in Halewood, Liverpool.

The F-Pace has an aluminium, glued and riveted b-i-w and shares its technology with the XE and the XF. It is built at Solihull on the same line as the XE and Range Rover Sport (I believe). I also believe that it is entirely possible that similar facilities are to be installed at Castle Bromwich to provide both extra capacity and the flexibility to respond to whatever demand pattern emerges.

Edited by oldtimer2 on Monday 1st February 16:35

It's the same line as the XE, not the RR Sport. XE production was slated to move to Castle Bromwich when F Pace went into full production but I don't know if that happened. I'll ask.

[Dan_1981]

Not yet.

[Cotic]

oldtimer2 said:

The Discovery Sport has a steel, welded body in white and shares its technology with the Range Rover Evoque; both are built in Halewood, Liverpool.

The F-Pace has an aluminium, glued and riveted b-i-w and shares its technology with the XE and the XF. It is built at Solihull on the same line as the XE and Range Rover Sport (I believe). I also believe that it is entirely possible that similar facilities are to be installed at Castle Bromwich to provide both extra capacity and the flexibility to respond to whatever demand pattern emerges. JLR have also hinted that yet another Range Rover will be built sharing its platform with the F-Pace, that will be smaller than the Range Rover Sport (because it is too big for some) but larger than the Evoque. It would not surprise me if the Defender replacement also appears based off the same platform and possibly a larger version based nf the bigger new Discovery we have yet to see. It appears that the Jaguar XE and F-Pace were launched from Solihull to get to market quicker than would otherwise be possible.

What they do share is use of the 2 litre Ingenium engine, similar front and rear suspension designs and interior stuff like infotainment systems.

Quite apart from all that the engines are 90 degrees rotated (longitudinal in the F-Pace and transverse in the D Sport). That, in itself is likely to translate to a vastly different drive.

[oldtimer2]

Cotic said:

oldtimer2 said:

The Discovery Sport has a steel, welded body in white and shares its technology with the Range Rover Evoque; both are built in Halewood, Liverpool.

The F-Pace has an aluminium, glued and riveted b-i-w and shares its technology with the XE and the XF. It is built at Solihull on the same line as the XE and Range Rover Sport (I believe). I also believe that it is entirely possible that similar facilities are to be installed at Castle Bromwich to provide both extra capacity and the flexibility to respond to whatever demand pattern emerges. JLR have also hinted that yet another Range Rover will be built sharing its platform with the F-Pace, that will be smaller than the Range Rover Sport (because it is too big for some) but larger than the Evoque. It would not surprise me if the Defender replacement also appears based off the same platform and possibly a larger version based nf the bigger new Discovery we have yet to see. It appears that the Jaguar XE and F-Pace were launched from Solihull to get to market quicker than would otherwise be possible.

What they do share is use of the 2 litre Ingenium engine, similar front and rear suspension designs and interior stuff like infotainment systems.

Quite apart from all that the engines are 90 degrees rotated (longitudinal in the F-Pace and transverse in the D Sport). That, in itself is likely to translate to a vastly different drive.

A good point. It would be interesting to get Jonathan Collard's opinions on these two vehicles once he has had the opportunity to drive them a bit - how he uses them and how they feel to drive. There is no substitute for hopping from one vehicle to another to get a good view.

[Rob Dance]

XFDreamer said:

It's great to see Jaguar now have a full range of cars to compete with, and beat the Germans.

I'm sure our American friends will love the F Pace and it'll sell like hotcakes over there.

There's something about a Jag that the opposition just can't put on their options list. (Don't ask me what it is though.)

Brits will let a Jag out of side streets........ !

[silent ninja]

gizlaroc said:

The fact is SUVs sell, as once someone has had one it makes the estate pretty pointless, not the other way round.

Totally agree.

I'm still puzzled why anybody would buy an estate from an aesthetic point of view. I've always found them so ugly. They always ruin the lines and shape of a gorgeous saloon or coupe with an enlarged back that makes it look disproportioned, like an oversized tortoise. Estates are no easier to park than an SUV.

You'll see a decent looking BMW/Merc, then it turns and it's an estate and I just think the whole look is ruined. If you want practical, get an SUV, otherwise just buy something 'functional' looking that will do the job.