RE: BMW M4: PH Fleet

[cerb4.5lee]

s m said:

I think it's not so much that "they can't win"..... It's "they can't win with everyone" and their fan base changes with every iteration

A very wise sum up.

[s m]

cerb4.5lee said:

s m said:

I think it's not so much that "they can't win"..... It's "they can't win with everyone" and their fan base changes with every iteration

A very wise sum up.

Maybe if you don't like this version you'll like the electric one that comes in the future.......and of course, vice versa

[cerb4.5lee]

s m said:

cerb4.5lee said:

s m said:

I think it's not so much that "they can't win"..... It's "they can't win with everyone" and their fan base changes with every iteration

A very wise sum up.

Maybe if you don't like this version you'll like the electric one that comes in the future.......and of course, vice versa

Yes and BMW always have to go with the times and offer a version that suits what is in vogue...its also guaranteed to not please everyone though sadly.

[anonymous-user]

Dan Trent said:

3) We asked them on the launch, they rolled their eyes and said 'last time we did with the M5 we sold 11,000 saloons and 1,000 estates - never again'*

Thing is, i suspect less people want a "Large performance estate" a-la M5 than would buy a "small(er) performance estate" a-la M3?

There must be quite a lot of people who are in the market for a proper performance car (ie a step up in dynamics and performance from a 335i/335d) but who want the convenience of an estate to suit their life style?

And on the 3er, surely an M3 tourer would just be a new rear bumper and a pair of flaired rear quarter panels? Hardly a massive on-cost. People have done DIY E93 versions:




:-)

[s m]

Max_Torque said:

Dan Trent said:

3) We asked them on the launch, they rolled their eyes and said 'last time we did with the M5 we sold 11,000 saloons and 1,000 estates - never again'*

Thing is, i suspect less people want a "Large performance estate" a-la M5 than would buy a "small(er) performance estate" a-la M3?

There must be quite a lot of people who are in the market for a proper performance car (ie a step up in dynamics and performance from a 335i/335d) but who want the convenience of an estate to suit their life style?

And on the 3er, surely an M3 tourer would just be a new rear bumper and a pair of flaired rear quarter panels? Hardly a massive on-cost. People have done DIY E93 versions:




:-)

Don't you reckon they would have to do new rear springs/dampers and the consequent testing as well on top though

[Complex]

It seems that all reviews of cars which go through the PH fleet have an enormously disproportionate positive spin on them compared to the general consensus and other journo/long-term reviews. I like reading them but struggle to take them remotely seriously as a reflection of a long-term experience with a car.

[Scottie - NW]

"To them I say stand at the side of the road and get someone to drive it up and down a few times - from the outside it sounds spectacular"

Ask the person next to you slap you for writing something so stupid.

[Pennyroyal Tea]

Dan Trent said:

daz05 said:

PunterCam said:

You criticise the car in all the same ways the reviews did, but shrug it off as if it doesn't matter.. Crap steering, crap engine noise (stand outside to listen?! Why on earth would I stand outside?), crap damping... These aren't little things.

We all warm to cars we drive for a while, but that doesn't make them great. I'm sure it'd be a nice car to own, but it's never in a million years a great M car.

Yep agree with this, it's a strange article.

The point is that many cars these days are designed to make a dazzling first impression, be that for punters on the test drive or hacks on the press launch or roadtest loan period. And they do it very well, the kind of niggles and irritations that come up over extended use only typically arising on ownership or over a long-term test.

With the M4 it's kind of the other way around. On first drive the points I mentioned as criticisms - the steering, the damping, the boosty power delivery - are the first things you notice and therefore dominate your impression of the car, which I think explains why it has had such a mixed reception among both buyers and reviewers. As time goes by though you learn to put these things into context, work with or around them or simply appreciate the other talents the car has you hadn't necessarily noticed initially and accept them as a compromise in the overall package. Because, let's face it, no car is perfect out of the box.

In the case of the M4 it's a complicated car with a multitude of driving modes and a drastically different character according to how you drive it, what settings you've chosen, etc... It takes time to dial in and find the configuration that best works for you and once you do it becomes ever more rewarding. In drug terms I guess you're talking instant hit versus slow release.

The criticisms remain valid and the drive in the Schnitzer car with the passive dampers revealed what a difference there can be with some changes. But, overall, the M4 is simply an *exciting* car to drive and live with. And there aren't enough of those these days.

Hope that helps!

Dan

I'm still confused...

You say (to paraphrase you) that the steering is crap, the damping feels out of sorts and that the noise is only exciting from outside the car (ergo not exciting at all), but yet somehow that all fades with time and the car is after all one of the M-power greats.

On the other hand, I don't think I've ever owned an M-car or read a review of one that I haven't owned where any of these criticisms could be levelled (F10 M5 notwithstanding), so simple reason would dictate therefore that the F82 has a long way to go before attaining the status you praise it for (i.e. cars such as the E30 M3, any 'E' model M5, the M3 CSL etc).

It just seems a curious conclusion, that's all. And of course, being an automotive journalist, your integrity in such matters is your lifeblood, so there's obviously no way BMW have influenced this article.

And as an aside (not a question directed at you specifically), why must BMW be forced down the turbo route when Porsche has still managed to stay N/A with its GT cars? Even Audi has shunned turbo-charging for its hottest stuff and they are the ones who brought the concept to the masses!

[shoestring7]

Pistonheadsbloke said:

none of the three damper modes seems an entirely happy match with the springs. On wet and bumpy tarmac it really struggles. And the initial mushiness in the variable ratio steering rack frustrates too,

I'd say exactly the same of my M135i, and this is what stops it being a brilliant all-round package. However at half the price of an M3/4 it much easier to forgive, especially when the engine's boosting hard in third and my dull-looking little hatchback is giving a Porsche 996 a hard time up a M/Way slip road.

SS7

[SFO]

what you need is the M4 convertible .. the extra weight (over 250kg) improves traction and damping

[Duffman83]

The fast 3 series estate still does exist and will no doubt be very rare. The ability to produce various bodystyles around the same platform and not need to sell multiples of thousands lends itself to Alpina rather than M. I give you the Alpina B3 Bi-Turbo touring. As I understand it, a stonking alternative to the M3, more suited to the turbo delivery and also available as a touring:-

http://www.alpina-automobiles.com/en/models/b3-bit...

[Dan Trent]

Pennyroyal Tea said:

And of course, being an automotive journalist, your integrity in such matters is your lifeblood, so there's obviously no way BMW have influenced this article.

I'm crossing my fingers this was said in jest and we're not opening up another tiresome variation on THAT conversation again, this time with BMW in the starring role.

I'll go into more detail on the other points because they're more interesting to talk about! I'll accept that a 'great' in terms of E30, CSL, the E model M5s etc is *possibly* a little strong but, saying that, in making the difficult transition to turbocharging and delivering a truly exciting car that hits all the numbers required by modern legislation/customer expectation but is still a bit of a wild child is to me an achievement of note. We'll park that conversation until the next one and see where we're at, perhaps!

As far as the steering goes, and to add a bit of nuance to the conversation, it's a bit like the throttle in that there's an initial gloopiness that needs to be overcome but once 'in it' with the car doing exciting stuff it feels a lot better and more intuitive than first thought. Personally I'd love to feel what it was like with a linear rack as I suspect that would sort it but everyone has their own tastes as far as steering feel goes. 'Crap' is a stronger term than I'd use though. Likewise the damping which, as I said in the piece, is very surface and condition dependent. Brilliant in the right ones, awful in the wrong ones and - as highlighted by the KW damped Schnitzer car - something that can be rectified if it bothers you.

And the noise? I loved it, once I'd got rid of the Active Sound Design. The point about it sounding better from the outside was made because you really get the best of it kerbside. But with the speaker-assisted sound disabled and the flaps open in Sport or Sport Plus mode although 'quieter' in the cabin it sounded a lot more natural and like a 'proper' BMW straight-six. OK, so you're never going to get the crazed induction sound of a CSL or even the more subtle ITB intake sound of other Ms. But there was enough to be going with.

Overall I think this has been a really interesting long-term loan because if you tracked my feelings towards the M3/M4 I loved it on the launch in the sunshine of Portugal, hated it when I drove it in the UK (this was in the depths of winter and a couple of days in an M3) and started the long-term loan from a point of view of deep wariness and suspicion. That, over time, talents and character were revealed is what made my enthusiasm for the car stronger. I never, ever expected to like it as much as I did. But, warts and all, I properly fell for it. It's the most exciting and interesting of the new-school turbo generation I think.

And, no, they didn't pay me to say that.

Dan

[HannsG]

I have ran a E46 M3 for three years as a daily. It's been faultless apart from a few common issues. Bodywork related for the most part.

For some reason I think the M4 is a natural progression?

Then again my M3 is a manual with imola leather and exterior silver grey. In very good Condition also.

My worry is if I don't like the M4 it could prove difficult to buy an E46 M3 in excellent condition.

[ShaM4]

EricE said:

Déjà vu — BMW releases a new M3, people hate it, the "previous" model becomes the best car ever until 2 years later when suddenly the new M3 becomes the best car ever.
Repeat ad infinitum.
You can practically count the days until people realise that this is the last 6 cylinder, RWD, non-hybrid M3 and suddenly the tone will change.

Such a lovely six cylinder soundtrack! Emotional, involving driving experience! Great steering feel, uncorrupted from AWD torque steer! So light and nimble because it has no batteries onboard. One of BMW's all time greats and a future classic!

Totally agree! Every time!

[ShaM4]

PunterCam said:

You criticise the car in all the same ways the reviews did, but shrug it off as if it doesn't matter.. Crap steering, crap engine noise (stand outside to listen?! Why on earth would I stand outside?), crap damping... These aren't little things.

We all warm to cars we drive for a while, but that doesn't make them great. I'm sure it'd be a nice car to own, but it's never in a million years a great M car.

I'm not fully agreed with warming to cars over time, I normally get bored and want to seek the next thrill. Point is, with the M4 you can't just jump in and drive at 10/10ths, you find yourself exploring a little further each time you get the opportunity (basically when the family aren't in it) and this is exciting and continues to excite. This is why people who can drive them on a regular basis have a different opinion and I guess why Chris Harris has an F8x (I think?)

Each for their own opinion but I see myself with this car a lot longer than previous 911 etc...maybe not my CSL though, God I miss that car

Edited by ShaM4 on Saturday 13th February 11:35

[RossP]

Quick vid of my standard BMW M4 exhaust - valves open and unplugged - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMgSJlZWP8E&fe...

[perscott]

The whole article seems to be one long excuse. Any car that does not have a reasonable overlap of power/torque from one gear to another is flawed. The M4 doesn't. The power coming in suddenly and in a concerning way is something more reminiscent of an early seventies 2002 Turbo rather that a BMW current performance saloon with sophisticated management. The driving mode options just don't fit the performance. More concerning is that a PH journalist's view of the car is contradictory to almost everyone else's and that the words appear chosen to provide least upset to the manufacturer.

[RossP]

perscott said:

Any car that does not have a reasonable overlap of power/torque from one gear to another is flawed. The M4 doesn't.

Have you even been in one?

[Kawasicki]

perscott said:

The whole article seems to be one long excuse. Any car that does not have a reasonable overlap of power/torque from one gear to another is flawed. The M4 doesn't. The power coming in suddenly and in a concerning way is something more reminiscent of an early seventies 2002 Turbo rather that a BMW current performance saloon with sophisticated management. The driving mode options just don't fit the performance. More concerning is that a PH journalist's view of the car is contradictory to almost everyone else's and that the words appear chosen to provide least upset to the manufacturer.

The power arrives early, with a wallop and just sort of builds with revs. They are very quick cars, in a muscle car kind of way, which is not what I expect from an M3/M4. The E92 M3 was completely the opposite...I much prefer them.

[mrnoisy78]

Kawasicki said:

The power arrives early, with a wallop and just sort of builds with revs. They are very quick cars, in a muscle car kind of way, which is not what I expect from an M3/M4. The E92 M3 was completely the opposite...I much prefer them.

I've test driven one of these and don't agree with that.
I was hoping for a thrilling car that delivered the power with the sort of raw thump that my old tuned Impreza did and instead got what I felt was a refined dumbed down experience for Joe public who's probably never owned a truly fast car.
The trouble is, as others have already pointed out, it's a lot of power and torque to send through just the rear wheels but rather than let the driver have fun learning to feather the throttle and deal with that they've dumbed the map down.
DSC did intervene a few times which ruined the experience but then it's a hugely expensive car so I'd probably never dare to turn it off.

I honestly felt it would be a far more vicious and entertaining car to drive with a remap.
Power also doesn't arrive as early as it should - it felt laggy; the delivery wasn't all that great considering it's supposedly a sequential turbo setup.
The 2 things I did think were an improvement over my E92 M3 were:
- DCT felt tighter to me on changes - almost quicker and
- Ride was more comfy, although fidgeted a couple of times on B roads it certainly wasn't as bad as some suggested but maybe I wasn't pushing as hard as some?

The engine sound is also horrible compared to the V8 and just seems mismatched to an M car, would be more befitting to a Corsa with a drainpipe attached. I came away feeling happier with my E92.

Edited by mrnoisy78 on Monday 8th August 06:45