RE: Winkelmann's Lamborghini - end of an era? PH Blog

[A10]

RoverP6B said:

From what I've heard, Winkelmann is a total ahole to customers who dare to suggest that the latest generation of Lambos aren't quite what their predecessors were...

Really? Anything to back that up?

[sidesauce]

RoverP6B said:

The Aventador's engine is just two Audi V6s, really...

I call bullst.

There are no V6's currently in production or even at the time the Aventador's engine was designed that have a 60 deg angle - around 2008 (the time the Aventadors engine was designed) the VW Group was either using 90 deg V6s or 10.6/15 deg VR6s.

Just in case anyone wants to try and work out what this joker is on about, here's a helpful chart...

So RoverP6B, oh great one, engine expert, arbiter of taste and font of all knowledge, which one of those VW Group (NOT Audi) V6 engines is the L539 V12 based on?

Don't worry, take your time - we'll all wait.

RoverP6B said:

not a proper Lamborghini engine, unlike the Murcielago's.

Like people who actually buy an Aventador would ever care. Oh and define 'proper' - I'd like to understand better what that means in the context you use it exactly.

[RoverP6B]

A10 said:

Really? Anything to back that up?

Just reports I heard on the web from disappointed Lamborghini owners who drove the Aventador and Huracan, felt disappointed, bought rival products instead and told Winkelmann what they thought. Apparently he was totally dismissive of their criticisms - apparently he was wont to call them "fking morons". He also banned journalists who said the same from any future Lamborghini launches. Not really doing the brand's credibility much good.

[RoverP6B]

nickfrog said:

Another car you have thoroughly tested I take it, Mr Rover ? I guess you don't really need to.

The point of the matter is that it is based on Audi's modular engine architecture - it's most closely related to the engine in the S4 (although that's supercharged). It is not a wholly bespoke Lamborghini engine, unlike the fabulous old Giotto Bizzarrini V12.

[leglessAlex]

RoverP6B said:

The point of the matter is that it is based on Audi's modular engine architecture - it's most closely related to the engine in the S4 (although that's supercharged). It is not a wholly bespoke Lamborghini engine, unlike the fabulous old Giotto Bizzarrini V12.

But it has a different bore, stroke and angle to the S4 engine. How is it so 'closely related'?

[sidesauce]

RoverP6B said:

The point of the matter is that it is based on Audi's modular engine architecture - it's most closely related to the engine in the S4 (although that's supercharged).

"I (sidesauce) personally designed the Aventador." Do you see how stupid that sounds?

Your word means nothing, you didn't actually design the engine. Show us the facts to back up what you're saying.

We'll all wait. Again.

[A10]

RoverP6B said:

A10 said:

Really? Anything to back that up?

Just reports I heard on the web from disappointed Lamborghini owners who drove the Aventador and Huracan, felt disappointed, bought rival products instead and told Winkelmann what they thought. Apparently he was totally dismissive of their criticisms - apparently he was wont to call them "fking morons". He also banned journalists who said the same from any future Lamborghini launches. Not really doing the brand's credibility much good.

Do you have any links please. I'm intrigued.

[RoverP6B]

As far as I can ascertain it's the same 60-degree bank angle as the Audi V6.

I think the stories I heard about Winkelmann were on the Jalopnik board. Can't find it immediately. Might turn it up after hours of trawling but I don't have time atm.

[BVB]

Lamborghini will always be Lamborghini. It is way bigger than one man, apart from founder Feruccio himself.

[soad]

I like that “Original Gangsta” mural!





http://www.pausethemoment.com/street-art-wynwood-m...

[DonkeyApple]

Evilex said:

Oh well, there's always Pagani, I suppose.
They seem like the true spiritual successors to the barmy Lamborghinis of old.
The new ones are simply too anodyne. Silly colour schemes do not a flamboyant car make.

I think that's right. I still like Lambos, but they don't quite have that loony element now they are being built and overseen in a Tuetonic manner. Pagani does seem to have picked up where the Lamborghini I grew up with left off.

[leglessAlex]

RoverP6B said:

As far as I can ascertain it's the same 60-degree bank angle as the Audi V6.

Source? Wiki has the V6 listed as a 90 degree configuration, as does an Autoblog article and an Audi service/information manual.

[nickfrog]

Seriously radio silence from our resident Oracle.

[leglessAlex]

It's a bit sad really.

I couldn't find any evidence of Winkelmann being a knob either, I doubt it's true. I think it would be hard for him to keep his job if he was being abusive towards customers.

[sandysinclair]

My summary is this. He has produced cars that sell well and probably saved the company in the short term. The new v12 engines lack the noise and character of the old ones that is painfully clear. The cars are safer to drive but more understeery than ever before but that is what sells at the minute. The madness and that true magic lamboness is gone but might come back in the new turbo era that is only a couple of years away. Driving a Lambo for the first time should be extremely intimidating and nervy,crazy doors ,can't see out, crazy maniac of an engine , proper skills neaded on the gearchange and now it just isnt. ..

[Diablo SV]

sidesauce said:

Hitch78 said:

I do not believe they have become any less wild, they've just become less flawed. I think a lot of people get stuck on that. I hope Winkelmann stays.

This.

When I first saw the Lamborghini Countach there were no flaws , it was perfect as it still is today . It simply did not matter if the engine drank more petrol than other cars or that the electrics failed on occasion or that it broke down and was unreliable . I knew full well why the Countach was built and I knew full well how much of an impact it had on my life , I grew up with it on my bedroom wall , I dreamed of the day when I could own one , I had a plan now in my life to work hard and be able to afford one , I never had a plan before , I never understood that life could offer anything other than the mundane existence of working for a living and putting enough food on the table . The Countach was awesome for those reasons , and it still is awesome for the same reasons . Italian flair and styling has a great way of motivating people to do well for themselves , to have a dream life . Lamborghini,s experience in tractor building took care of the robust V12 engine , what else is there to work on ? Style , out do the stylish Ferrari sports cars of that era . The Countach just dropped em dead in its tracks . Because of the financial cost of this exercise Lamborghini sold up , and the company has been through different ownerships ever since . But their ethos remains , their spirit in the cars remained . The change of ownership in 1998 was a turning point for the company , to make it a financially viable company changes had to be made , more volume of cars produced more models including a V10 . It's kept the company afloat for now , but it has lost its spirit . Back in the day when you drove a Lamborghini you simply had to buckle up and hold on , that thrill of the ride was what made Lamborghini special . Nowadays the cars are more safe ! More reliable ! Less rare ! Less crazy , more mainstream . Apart from the odd Sesto Elemento or Veneno that no one can afford . I feel the Aventador has got some of that old Italian flair and style back , but I have also heard the magic has gone , again the drive is too predictable , too safe , it doesn't get your heart pumping like doing 180mph in an insanely noisy Countach without power steering or ABS . Probably for the best some liberals would say ;-)

[sidesauce]

Diablo SV said:

sidesauce said:

Hitch78 said:

I do not believe they have become any less wild, they've just become less flawed. I think a lot of people get stuck on that. I hope Winkelmann stays.

This.

When I first saw the Lamborghini Countach there were no flaws , it was perfect as it still is today . It simply did not matter if the engine drank more petrol than other cars or that the electrics failed on occasion or that it broke down and was unreliable . I knew full well why the Countach was built and I knew full well how much of an impact it had on my life , I grew up with it on my bedroom wall , I dreamed of the day when I could own one , I had a plan now in my life to work hard and be able to afford one , I never had a plan before , I never understood that life could offer anything other than the mundane existence of working for a living and putting enough food on the table . The Countach was awesome for those reasons , and it still is awesome for the same reasons . Italian flair and styling has a great way of motivating people to do well for themselves , to have a dream life . Lamborghini,s experience in tractor building took care of the robust V12 engine , what else is there to work on ? Style , out do the stylish Ferrari sports cars of that era . The Countach just dropped em dead in its tracks . Because of the financial cost of this exercise Lamborghini sold up , and the company has been through different ownerships ever since . But their ethos remains , their spirit in the cars remained . The change of ownership in 1998 was a turning point for the company , to make it a financially viable company changes had to be made , more volume of cars produced more models including a V10 . It's kept the company afloat for now , but it has lost its spirit . Back in the day when you drove a Lamborghini you simply had to buckle up and hold on , that thrill of the ride was what made Lamborghini special . Nowadays the cars are more safe ! More reliable ! Less rare ! Less crazy , more mainstream . Apart from the odd Sesto Elemento or Veneno that no one can afford . I feel the Aventador has got some of that old Italian flair and style back , but I have also heard the magic has gone , again the drive is too predictable , too safe , it doesn't get your heart pumping like doing 180mph in an insanely noisy Countach without power steering or ABS . Probably for the best some liberals would say ;-)

That was then. This is now.

You talk with rose tinted spectacles where people like Jay Kay sell his Diablo as the new aspiration in reality is a LaFerrari/P1/Pagani etc. You say that no-one can afford a Sesto Elemento or Veneno when in reality more people in the world today can afford to buy these two cars than could afford any Lamborghini in the 70s/80s!

Lamborghini's of old are just that - old. Unreliable. Uncomfortable. Awkward to live with. People who actually buy them nowadays care that they are reliable, that the electrics work, that they are relatively comfortable to live with and they certainly don't really compare them to the Countach or Diablo and why should they? If someone wants a scary, unreliable and uncomfortable Lamborghini they can simply buy an old one. If the fact that one can use and live with a Gallardo or Huracan as a daily driver means the loss of what you call spirit then personally I think it's the best thing to happen to them. Lamborghini would otherwise have been consigned to the history books decades ago.

Also, anyone driving any car at 180mph without their heart pumping is probably dead.

[Diablo SV]

sidesauce said:

Diablo SV said:

sidesauce said:

Hitch78 said:

I do not believe they have become any less wild, they've just become less flawed. I think a lot of people get stuck on that. I hope Winkelmann stays.

This.

When I first saw the Lamborghini Countach there were no flaws , it was perfect as it still is today . It simply did not matter if the engine drank more petrol than other cars or that the electrics failed on occasion or that it broke down and was unreliable . I knew full well why the Countach was built and I knew full well how much of an impact it had on my life , I grew up with it on my bedroom wall , I dreamed of the day when I could own one , I had a plan now in my life to work hard and be able to afford one , I never had a plan before , I never understood that life could offer anything other than the mundane existence of working for a living and putting enough food on the table . The Countach was awesome for those reasons , and it still is awesome for the same reasons . Italian flair and styling has a great way of motivating people to do well for themselves , to have a dream life . Lamborghini,s experience in tractor building took care of the robust V12 engine , what else is there to work on ? Style , out do the stylish Ferrari sports cars of that era . The Countach just dropped em dead in its tracks . Because of the financial cost of this exercise Lamborghini sold up , and the company has been through different ownerships ever since . But their ethos remains , their spirit in the cars remained . The change of ownership in 1998 was a turning point for the company , to make it a financially viable company changes had to be made , more volume of cars produced more models including a V10 . It's kept the company afloat for now , but it has lost its spirit . Back in the day when you drove a Lamborghini you simply had to buckle up and hold on , that thrill of the ride was what made Lamborghini special . Nowadays the cars are more safe ! More reliable ! Less rare ! Less crazy , more mainstream . Apart from the odd Sesto Elemento or Veneno that no one can afford . I feel the Aventador has got some of that old Italian flair and style back , but I have also heard the magic has gone , again the drive is too predictable , too safe , it doesn't get your heart pumping like doing 180mph in an insanely noisy Countach without power steering or ABS . Probably for the best some liberals would say ;-)

That was then. This is now.

You talk with rose tinted spectacles where people like Jay Kay sell his Diablo as the new aspiration in reality is a LaFerrari/P1/Pagani etc. You say that no-one can afford a Sesto Elemento or Veneno when in reality more people in the world today can afford to buy these two cars than could afford any Lamborghini in the 70s/80s!

Lamborghini's of old are just that - old. Unreliable. Uncomfortable. Awkward to live with. People who actually buy them nowadays care that they are reliable, that the electrics work, that they are relatively comfortable to live with and they certainly don't really compare them to the Countach or Diablo and why should they? If someone wants a scary, unreliable and uncomfortable Lamborghini they can simply buy an old one. If the fact that one can use and live with a Gallardo or Huracan as a daily driver means the loss of what you call spirit then personally I think it's the best thing to happen to them. Lamborghini would otherwise have been consigned to the history books decades ago.

Also, anyone driving any car at 180mph without their heart pumping is probably dead.

If a Countach never got your heart pumping pal then yes you are correct you are clinically dead and the only petrol going around in your head would be how much it costs to fill the tank up . Seriously mate , you need to ask yourself why classic cars are prized possessions and looked after and cherished , you need to visit a few classic car events see what beautiful art is on display , iconic cars from the 1930,s and upwards . If it's all about the latest fastest carbon fibre gadget then that's just fashion pal nothing else you might as well be driving a Tesla . Rose tinted glasses , yeah maybe you are right , but I'm older enough to look good wearing them and cool enough to put them on in the first place . If you haven't enjoyed your cars from the past you simply haven't lived and haven't driven the cars how they should be driven or understood how or why they should be driven in that manner . Maybe you need to check if your pulse is still there , I suspect you never had one in the first place but I reserve judgement on that as I don't like to make assumptions of people I haven't meet . Best you hop over to Bargain section as Supercars appear to be out of your genre . As for Venenos and Sestos mate there's only probably around 20 cars built , so I doubt very much they will eclipse sales of the Countach anytime soon do you , even if people could afford a couple of million quid on a car .

[Diablo SV]

I bet you can't wait for Apples new icar , be so much more easier for you to drive

[sidesauce]

Diablo SV said:

sidesauce said:

Diablo SV said:

sidesauce said:

Hitch78 said:

I do not believe they have become any less wild, they've just become less flawed. I think a lot of people get stuck on that. I hope Winkelmann stays.

This.

When I first saw the Lamborghini Countach there were no flaws , it was perfect as it still is today . It simply did not matter if the engine drank more petrol than other cars or that the electrics failed on occasion or that it broke down and was unreliable . I knew full well why the Countach was built and I knew full well how much of an impact it had on my life , I grew up with it on my bedroom wall , I dreamed of the day when I could own one , I had a plan now in my life to work hard and be able to afford one , I never had a plan before , I never understood that life could offer anything other than the mundane existence of working for a living and putting enough food on the table . The Countach was awesome for those reasons , and it still is awesome for the same reasons . Italian flair and styling has a great way of motivating people to do well for themselves , to have a dream life . Lamborghini,s experience in tractor building took care of the robust V12 engine , what else is there to work on ? Style , out do the stylish Ferrari sports cars of that era . The Countach just dropped em dead in its tracks . Because of the financial cost of this exercise Lamborghini sold up , and the company has been through different ownerships ever since . But their ethos remains , their spirit in the cars remained . The change of ownership in 1998 was a turning point for the company , to make it a financially viable company changes had to be made , more volume of cars produced more models including a V10 . It's kept the company afloat for now , but it has lost its spirit . Back in the day when you drove a Lamborghini you simply had to buckle up and hold on , that thrill of the ride was what made Lamborghini special . Nowadays the cars are more safe ! More reliable ! Less rare ! Less crazy , more mainstream . Apart from the odd Sesto Elemento or Veneno that no one can afford . I feel the Aventador has got some of that old Italian flair and style back , but I have also heard the magic has gone , again the drive is too predictable , too safe , it doesn't get your heart pumping like doing 180mph in an insanely noisy Countach without power steering or ABS . Probably for the best some liberals would say ;-)

That was then. This is now.

You talk with rose tinted spectacles where people like Jay Kay sell his Diablo as the new aspiration in reality is a LaFerrari/P1/Pagani etc. You say that no-one can afford a Sesto Elemento or Veneno when in reality more people in the world today can afford to buy these two cars than could afford any Lamborghini in the 70s/80s!

Lamborghini's of old are just that - old. Unreliable. Uncomfortable. Awkward to live with. People who actually buy them nowadays care that they are reliable, that the electrics work, that they are relatively comfortable to live with and they certainly don't really compare them to the Countach or Diablo and why should they? If someone wants a scary, unreliable and uncomfortable Lamborghini they can simply buy an old one. If the fact that one can use and live with a Gallardo or Huracan as a daily driver means the loss of what you call spirit then personally I think it's the best thing to happen to them. Lamborghini would otherwise have been consigned to the history books decades ago.

Also, anyone driving any car at 180mph without their heart pumping is probably dead.

If a Countach never got your heart pumping pal then yes you are correct you are clinically dead and the only petrol going around in your head would be how much it costs to fill the tank up . Seriously mate , you need to ask yourself why classic cars are prized possessions and looked after and cherished , you need to visit a few classic car events see what beautiful art is on display , iconic cars from the 1930,s and upwards . If it's all about the latest fastest carbon fibre gadget then that's just fashion pal nothing else you might as well be driving a Tesla . Rose tinted glasses , yeah maybe you are right , but I'm older enough to look good wearing them and cool enough to put them on in the first place . If you haven't enjoyed your cars from the past you simply haven't lived and haven't driven the cars how they should be driven or understood how or why they should be driven in that manner . Maybe you need to check if your pulse is still there , I suspect you never had one in the first place but I reserve judgement on that as I don't like to make assumptions of people I haven't meet . Best you hop over to Bargain section as Supercars appear to be out of your genre . As for Venenos and Sestos mate there's only probably around 20 cars built , so I doubt very much they will eclipse sales of the Countach anytime soon do you , even if people could afford a couple of million quid on a car .

Old enough to look good wearing rose-tinted spectacles while conveniently sidestepping the fact that under Audi and Mr Winkelmann, Lamborghini exists and actually thrives today precisely because the cars are more reliable, relatively comfortable and liveable with than the cars of old - in other words, they cater to want their market want. If they didn't then the simply wouldn't sell and would not be in business any more. I'd much prefer the chance to aspire to own a Aventador SV than not have the choice at all. If you feel the need to chest-thump then I pity you.

No-one under the age of 30 really cares about owning new cars, much less old cars - it's a different era. You talk about the price of classic cars but it's funny how the very latest ones like the Laferrari, 918, P1, Paganis and Koenigseggs et al don't seem to lose value either so what's your point?

I couldn't care less about the Apple car but I do know that the winners are those who look forward and don't dwell in the past. Classic cars are analogue and todays world is definitely digital. I accept it, if you don't then that's up to you. It's 2016 now - time to step out of the 70s.

Edited by sidesauce on Sunday 7th February 14:30