Is there a genuinely decent alternative to the E46 330ci?
Discussion
LunarOne said:
Billy_Whizzzz said:
LunarOne said:
in the real world the 330 is 85% of an M3 anyway.
However much you like your 330, it just isn't 85% of the M3. Sounds like you haven't had an M3, which in the real world is always 300% of the 330.The feel of the two is totally, utterly different - in the M3, the engine utterly dominates. The 330 is fine, but certainly nothing like an M3.Edited by Billy_Whizzzz on Sunday 7th February 20:42
Billy_Whizzzz said:
LunarOne said:
Billy_Whizzzz said:
LunarOne said:
in the real world the 330 is 85% of an M3 anyway.
However much you like your 330, it just isn't 85% of the M3. Sounds like you haven't had an M3, which in the real world is always 300% of the 330.The feel of the two is totally, utterly different - in the M3, the engine utterly dominates. The 330 is fine, but certainly nothing like an M3.Bearing in mind it has been a couple of years since I had my 330, I'd say this on the subject of the engines
The 330's engine is phenomenally smooth. Possibly to a fault. It is a very "grown-up" engine - you never feel like it's come "on cam", or get a sudden rush of torque, it just does its stuff. It sounds nice if you've come from a diesel or something and as I had the clubsport I got to hear it better than most. The standard 330 is far too quiet for my liking.
The M3's motor feels like a totally different animal. There is a step-change in performance around 3,500-4,000rpm. The thing just comes alive. And it has a much, much harder edge to it in terms of noise - even as standard. It's a wonderful thing. It doesn't really love going to the redline as standard though, but I will probably put a CSL style airbox on mine and I hear that changes it drastically.
It's a mighty engine and a mighty car - and could keep up with some very exotic machinery on b-roads.
The 330's engine is phenomenally smooth. Possibly to a fault. It is a very "grown-up" engine - you never feel like it's come "on cam", or get a sudden rush of torque, it just does its stuff. It sounds nice if you've come from a diesel or something and as I had the clubsport I got to hear it better than most. The standard 330 is far too quiet for my liking.
The M3's motor feels like a totally different animal. There is a step-change in performance around 3,500-4,000rpm. The thing just comes alive. And it has a much, much harder edge to it in terms of noise - even as standard. It's a wonderful thing. It doesn't really love going to the redline as standard though, but I will probably put a CSL style airbox on mine and I hear that changes it drastically.
It's a mighty engine and a mighty car - and could keep up with some very exotic machinery on b-roads.
jayemm89 said:
The 330's engine is phenomenally smooth. Possibly to a fault. It is a very "grown-up" engine - you never feel like it's come "on cam", or get a sudden rush of torque, it just does its stuff. It sounds nice if you've come from a diesel or something
You mean it's dull.Dull, dull, dull - like the car.
It's depressing that it is also probably, the best in it's class.
V8RX7 said:
You mean it's dull.
Dull, dull, dull - like the car.
It's depressing that it is also probably, the best in it's class.
You could say that. I think the reality is it really isn't a sports car at all, it's an executive/middle management saloon. But it happens to be much sportier than its rivals.Dull, dull, dull - like the car.
It's depressing that it is also probably, the best in it's class.
Oddly the automatic 645i that I replaced it with was a proper hooligan when it wanted to be, a shame there weren't more manuals of those. I think they are a great alternative for some people looking at E46s now
jayemm89 said:
V8RX7 said:
You mean it's dull.
Dull, dull, dull - like the car.
It's depressing that it is also probably, the best in it's class.
You could say that. I think the reality is it really isn't a sports car at all, it's an executive/middle management saloon. But it happens to be much sportier than its rivals.Dull, dull, dull - like the car.
It's depressing that it is also probably, the best in it's class.
It's an upmarket family car first and foremost and it shows and it's sporting intent is pretty hard to take seriously.
cerb4.5lee said:
I think that is where my biggest gripe is with the M3 too and it's the fact that it really is just an executive/middle management saloon therefore it's really hard to accept it as anything that exciting...regardless of what tweaks they do to it or what engine it has in it.
It's an upmarket family car first and foremost and it shows and it's sporting intent is pretty hard to take seriously.
http://www.bimmerfile.com/2012/04/28/the-champion-in-touring-car-racing-a-history-of-the-bmw-m3/It's an upmarket family car first and foremost and it shows and it's sporting intent is pretty hard to take seriously.
cerb4.5lee said:
jayemm89 said:
V8RX7 said:
You mean it's dull.
Dull, dull, dull - like the car.
It's depressing that it is also probably, the best in it's class.
You could say that. I think the reality is it really isn't a sports car at all, it's an executive/middle management saloon. But it happens to be much sportier than its rivals.Dull, dull, dull - like the car.
It's depressing that it is also probably, the best in it's class.
It's an upmarket family car first and foremost and it shows and it's sporting intent is pretty hard to take seriously.
Vincefox said:
Fair enough and that does help explain why the M3 has so many fans then, although they will be very far removed versions when compared to the road cars though, and we sadly only get to experience the heavy and quiet versions that are so obviously related to the family car that it's based on. 
I think people slating the 330ci for not being hard-edged or sporty enough are missing the point entirely. If you want a sporty car that costs loads to run, and isn't very good being driven daily in heavy traffic, you get the M3. I've driven and passengered plenty of miles in the E46 M3, and it's completely pants as a daily traffic hauler - you'd be an idiot to drive a manual, and the SMG is useless. However, you get the M3 out where you can stretch its legs, and the engine/chassis combination is an absolute belter.
Saying all of that, comparing it to an M3 is an interesting, but COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT exercise. The M3 costs three times as much to buy, and a bucketload more to run. The whole point of this thread is to try and suggest "a genuinely decent alternative to the E46 330ci".
As much as the 330ci has taken an absolute slating from certain (repetitive, trolling) parties in this thread, I'm yet to see a genuinely decent alternative suggested. We're talking about something that does the grown-up and fun thing in equal measures. Something you can just jump in and drive every day, that also offers a good deal of enjoyment when you find a good bit of road. Something that combines a lovely quiet, comfortable motorway jaunt, with decent sporting credentials. Something that doesn't have parts made of unobtainium, and that can be worked on by any halfway competent home mechanic.
All of the above, in the £3-3.5k bracket, seems borderline insurmountable. Mine sold for <£3k at the weekend, which seems like an absolute bargain to me.
Saying all of that, comparing it to an M3 is an interesting, but COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT exercise. The M3 costs three times as much to buy, and a bucketload more to run. The whole point of this thread is to try and suggest "a genuinely decent alternative to the E46 330ci".
As much as the 330ci has taken an absolute slating from certain (repetitive, trolling) parties in this thread, I'm yet to see a genuinely decent alternative suggested. We're talking about something that does the grown-up and fun thing in equal measures. Something you can just jump in and drive every day, that also offers a good deal of enjoyment when you find a good bit of road. Something that combines a lovely quiet, comfortable motorway jaunt, with decent sporting credentials. Something that doesn't have parts made of unobtainium, and that can be worked on by any halfway competent home mechanic.
All of the above, in the £3-3.5k bracket, seems borderline insurmountable. Mine sold for <£3k at the weekend, which seems like an absolute bargain to me.
C70R said:
I think people slating the 330ci for not being hard-edged or sporty enough are missing the point entirely. If you want a sporty car that costs loads to run, and isn't very good being driven daily in heavy traffic, you get the M3. I've driven and passengered plenty of miles in the E46 M3, and it's completely pants as a daily traffic hauler - you'd be an idiot to drive a manual, and the SMG is useless. However, you get the M3 out where you can stretch its legs, and the engine/chassis combination is an absolute belter.
This statement is nonsense. An M3 is a road car first and foremost and therefore to suggest it 'not fit for daily driving' is as ridiculous as tits on a goose. It's whole raison detre was to offer the 'race car' thrill in a 3 series package, whilst being as useable as, err a 3-series. Ditto the manual comment; we're not talking about a sequential racing 'box with a paddle clutch, here...C70R said:
Saying all of that, comparing it to an M3 is an interesting, but COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT exercise. The M3 costs three times as much to buy, and a bucketload more to run. The whole point of this thread is to try and suggest "a genuinely decent alternative to the E46 330ci".
How is it irrelevant? An E36 M3 should be a genuine consideration. Sure, M3 might cost more to run, but both are now old BMWs and will require regular maintenance accordingly. Besides, the additional cost of maintaining the M3 might be offset by a greater return on investment at resale.C70R said:
As much as the 330ci has taken an absolute slating from certain (repetitive, trolling) parties in this thread, I'm yet to see a genuinely decent alternative suggested. We're talking about something that does the grown-up and fun thing in equal measures. Something you can just jump in and drive every day, that also offers a good deal of enjoyment when you find a good bit of road. Something that combines a lovely quiet, comfortable motorway jaunt, with decent sporting credentials. Something that doesn't have parts made of unobtainium, and that can be worked on by any halfway competent home mechanic.
I said it before in the thread and I'll say it again: Audi TT.Pennyroyal Tea said:
C70R said:
I think people slating the 330ci for not being hard-edged or sporty enough are missing the point entirely. If you want a sporty car that costs loads to run, and isn't very good being driven daily in heavy traffic, you get the M3. I've driven and passengered plenty of miles in the E46 M3, and it's completely pants as a daily traffic hauler - you'd be an idiot to drive a manual, and the SMG is useless. However, you get the M3 out where you can stretch its legs, and the engine/chassis combination is an absolute belter.
This statement is nonsense. An M3 is a road car first and foremost and therefore to suggest it 'not fit for daily driving' is as ridiculous as tits on a goose. It's whole raison detre was to offer the 'race car' thrill in a 3 series package, whilst being as useable as, err a 3-series. Ditto the manual comment; we're not talking about a sequential racing 'box with a paddle clutch, here...C70R said:
Saying all of that, comparing it to an M3 is an interesting, but COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT exercise. The M3 costs three times as much to buy, and a bucketload more to run. The whole point of this thread is to try and suggest "a genuinely decent alternative to the E46 330ci".
How is it irrelevant? An E36 M3 should be a genuine consideration. Sure, M3 might cost more to run, but both are now old BMWs and will require regular maintenance accordingly. Besides, the additional cost of maintaining the M3 might be offset by a greater return on investment at resale.C70R said:
As much as the 330ci has taken an absolute slating from certain (repetitive, trolling) parties in this thread, I'm yet to see a genuinely decent alternative suggested. We're talking about something that does the grown-up and fun thing in equal measures. Something you can just jump in and drive every day, that also offers a good deal of enjoyment when you find a good bit of road. Something that combines a lovely quiet, comfortable motorway jaunt, with decent sporting credentials. Something that doesn't have parts made of unobtainium, and that can be worked on by any halfway competent home mechanic.
I said it before in the thread and I'll say it again: Audi TT.M3 for daily hacking. It's just not as pleasant a drive in traffic and town. 19" wheels/rubber-bands, stiffer suspension, SMG box - it's not a patch on a 330ci (in auto or manual flavour). The repeated appeal of the 330ci is its ability to balance fun and practicality/cost-effeciency.
Plus, THE M3 COSTS MORE THAN TWICE AS MUCH. In spite of it being a great car, it's a totally irrelevant comparison for the point of this thread.
I don't know why people keep banging on about it being better than the 330ci as if that should prove something...
E36 M3. Interior and refinement a generation behind, and you're seriously underestimating how much of a step forward the E46 was here. Yes, it's slightly a better drivers' car - nobody is debating that. But, it doesn't come close to the E46 for daily usability or running costs (a big chunk of the E46's appeal). Plus, and the point you seem to be repeatedly ignoring, and the crux of this thread, decent ones are now going for almost twice the price of a 330ci.
Audi TT. Not a bad shout, but falls down in a number of places. No space in the back seats, Golf/FWD chassis, no performance upside.
The biggest failing of the 330ci is the fact that its got absolutely zero character or fizz. Its a boulevard cruiser with a big engine and excellent sound quality but other than that its got absolutely nothing going for it. It is boringly competent. Plus its got a CDV (this can be removed but we're talking bone stock cars here I presume)
On that basis alone the alternatives are Alfas or Imprezas or maybe even an X350 XJR.
The M3 is a genuine alternative if you are looking for something with more character but considerably more expensive to run.
On that basis alone the alternatives are Alfas or Imprezas or maybe even an X350 XJR.
The M3 is a genuine alternative if you are looking for something with more character but considerably more expensive to run.
octane83 said:
The biggest failing of the 330ci is the fact that its got absolutely zero character or fizz. Its a boulevard cruiser with a big engine and excellent sound quality but other than that its got absolutely nothing going for it. It is boringly competent. Plus its got a CDV (this can be removed but we're talking bone stock cars here I presume)
On that basis alone the alternatives are Alfas or Imprezas or maybe even an X350 XJR.
The M3 is a genuine alternative if you are looking for something with more character but considerably more expensive to run.
It depends on your priorities. What about handling?On that basis alone the alternatives are Alfas or Imprezas or maybe even an X350 XJR.
The M3 is a genuine alternative if you are looking for something with more character but considerably more expensive to run.
Although I hated mine, the reason I bought it was that I was after something quiet and relaxing with rear drive, a low CofG, tidy handling and a manual gearbox. The 330ci has those things going for it, surely?
Edited by RobM77 on Monday 8th February 12:21
octane83 said:
The biggest failing of the 330ci is the fact that its got absolutely zero character or fizz. Its a boulevard cruiser with a big engine and excellent sound quality but other than that its got absolutely nothing going for it. It is boringly competent. Plus its got a CDV (this can be removed but we're talking bone stock cars here I presume)
On that basis alone the alternatives are Alfas or Imprezas or maybe even an X350 XJR.
The M3 is a genuine alternative if you are looking for something with more character but considerably more expensive to run.
I give up on this thread. If people don't understand the meaning of the word "alternative", I'm wasting my time.On that basis alone the alternatives are Alfas or Imprezas or maybe even an X350 XJR.
The M3 is a genuine alternative if you are looking for something with more character but considerably more expensive to run.
C70R said:
I give up on this thread. If people don't understand the meaning of the word "alternative", I'm wasting my time.
No, but others aren't being quite as autistic. Alternative means just that; it doesn't have to mean identically priced. Indeed, I'd say a better way of looking at the conundrum is value for money, which is where the E36 M3 vs E46 330ci question is perfectly valid. It's a totally sideways move but I have seen and driven a couple of XKRs for 5-6k and they make a very interesting alternative!
As far as the M3 as a sports car goes - there is always the Z4. Also available with the 3L engine. However it has its own set of problems and I imagine most people looking at an E46 require the back seats
As far as the M3 as a sports car goes - there is always the Z4. Also available with the 3L engine. However it has its own set of problems and I imagine most people looking at an E46 require the back seats
RobM77 said:
It depends on your priorities. What about handling?
Handling's not great either. Its safe and predictable as standard, the steering really is numb (quite an achievement as my late-2003 car had hydraulic steering I believe), roll stiffness is less than you'd expect given that its supposedly stiffened up, secondary ride is floaty. No LSD as standard so any extra power is spun away hopelessly.All in all a safe and predictable car that makes for a really nice cruiser, the engine sounds fab especially at low speed and high load.
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