Is there a genuinely decent alternative to the E46 330ci?

[jayemm89]

rb5er said:

And if you look at what £3k gets you when it comes to a 330ci its a moneypit with over 100k miles. Show us examples of all these decent £3k 330ci's........ I'm sure we'd all like to see where you are finding them.

Oh and the rear subframe boot floor cracking issues are quite a worry.

High miles are absolutely no indicator of any car - particularly an E46 - being a moneypit. I took mine from 117K - 163K with about £400 in unexpected maintenance. And most of that happened in the last few months of ownership - sticky caliper, new starter motor.

I know the subframe issue is a big thing on the ///M cars, but it seems to be a rare issue on the regular versions - although it can still happen.

Later cars had a long anti-perforation warranty too - I had warranty bodywork carried out on my E46 when it was 9 years old and had 150K on the clock. That's damn good service if you ask me.

I have seen a few decent 330s for around 4K - although if someone gets desperate to sell theirs and sends it to an online auction I could see a potential bargain happening at 3K

[C70R]

rb5er said:

C70R said:

rb5er said:

C70R said:

What does £5k have to do with anything?

You didn't read the OP? £5k is his budget.

Oh dear. Nor did you, it seems.

The101 said:

Budget is flexible but no more than 5k ideally, preferably a grand or two less

There's absolutely no need to spend £5k to get into a decent 330ci, unless you want a late model, super-low miles or a rare colour/spec. Something which isn't true of almost everything else that has been mentioned.

How did I not read it? His budget is £5k so not irrelevant at all.

And if you look at what £3k gets you when it comes to a 330ci its a moneypit with over 100k miles. Show us examples of all these decent £3k 330ci's........ I'm sure we'd all like to see where you are finding them.

Oh and the rear subframe boot floor cracking issues are quite a worry.

I've been watching the market for 6+ months. I don't need to sit here copy/pasting the dozens of Autotrader and EBay adverts to show you what's available at the median price - a quick search would show you everything you need. £3-3.5k will get you a very reasonable 330ci Sport, and they wear their mileage a LOT better than the Japanese cars you mentioned (coming from someone who has owned a few fast Japanese cars). Below this (as with any car) is a bit of a minefield, but there is still plenty of choice if you want to sift through for a gem.

I don't know where this "moneypit" idea comes from, but it certainly isn't the consensus among owners. They don't fall apart at 100k miles - the volume of (good-looking) cars available at 130k+ is testament to this. The engine and gearbox are some of the best kit that BMW had put in their cars to date, and they last well.

The boot floor/subframe thing was almost universally an M3 issue. The incidence rate among non-M E46s is absolutely minuscule, and certainly not worth stressing over. If that's the only real criticism you can level at the 330ci in that price range, then it's not exactly a damning indictment...

[RobM77]

I agree that the E46 330ci was a lowpoint for BMW; I prefer the E30 and E36 that went before it and the E90 that came after it (I’ve owned an E36 325i, E36 328i SC, E46 330ci & I currently own an E90). That said, most E30s and E36s are staring in the face of unpredictable and significant bills (in terms of % of purchase price) and E90s are out of budget compared to the E46, so the E46 definitely has its place in the market. If handling doesn’t interest you (as with most on PH it seems), then yes, some of the alternatives mentioned so far are definitely worth considering, although I would personally still rate the E46 higher; it has better bhp/mpg than most of its rivals, it was the quietest car in its class that Autocar measured at a steady 70mph, the reliability, whilst not stellar, is very reasonable, and the driving position is better than most of the competition too. The one downside is that the E46 is very refined and cruiser like compared to, for example, the Mondeo ST, which may change some people’s minds. For me though, handling rules the roost and the E46’s average to good rear drive chassis is way more appealing even than a very good FWD chassis for this money.

Regarding the comparison with the M3, I again agree entirely. I was quite disappointed by the E46 M3 to be honest when I drove one (a low mileage well cared for example). I realise they’re hailed as a great driver’s car, but most of the time if you’re not caning it I reckon they feel pretty much like an E46 330ci and in that respect they’re a total master of disguise. If you open it up then the engine, diff and suspension (in that order) are quite obviously quite a step on from the E46 330ci – the M3 gets better the faster you drive it, whereas the 330ci raises some of its flaws (the awful laggy DSC controlled open diff being the main annoyance!). If I’d forked out the bills for an M3 though I’d want it to feel more special from day to day and to me it felt like a 330ci.

To answer the OP’s question though, if you can’t stretch to an E90 and don’t want to risk an E36 328i, then no, I don’t think there are any serious rivals. However, if you’re into image and ‘spec’ and other things like that frequently talked about on PH, then I can’t comment – I’m talking purely from a driving point of view in terms of the chassis, engine and controls and an ownership point of view in terms of comfort and refinement.

Finally, I would buy carefully with an earlier model. My 2000 model E46 330ci was the worst car I’ve ever owned and I couldn’t wait to see the back of it. Hateful, hateful thing. They did get better though, and there was an early life revision in 2002 I think.

[rb5er]

C70R said:

I've been watching the market for 6+ months. I don't need to sit here copy/pasting the dozens of Autotrader and EBay adverts to show you what's available at the median price - a quick search would show you everything you need. £3-3.5k will get you a very reasonable 330ci Sport, and they wear their mileage a LOT better than the Japanese cars you mentioned (coming from someone who has owned a few fast Japanese cars). Below this (as with any car) is a bit of a minefield, but there is still plenty of choice if you want to sift through for a gem.

I don't know where this "moneypit" idea comes from, but it certainly isn't the consensus among owners. They don't fall apart at 100k miles - the volume of (good-looking) cars available at 130k+ is testament to this. The engine and gearbox are some of the best kit that BMW had put in their cars to date, and they last well.

The boot floor/subframe thing was almost universally an M3 issue. The incidence rate among non-M E46s is absolutely minuscule, and certainly not worth stressing over. If that's the only real criticism you can level at the 330ci in that price range, then it's not exactly a damning indictment...

So you cant just post a couple of examples at that price? Because there aren't any perhaps?

Boot floors cracking certainly did not only affect the m3's.

And ime Japanese cars wear the miles better than e46's but thats by the by.

[Sump]

rb5er said:

C70R said:

rb5er said:

C70R said:

What does £5k have to do with anything?

You didn't read the OP? £5k is his budget.

Oh dear. Nor did you, it seems.

The101 said:

Budget is flexible but no more than 5k ideally, preferably a grand or two less

There's absolutely no need to spend £5k to get into a decent 330ci, unless you want a late model, super-low miles or a rare colour/spec. Something which isn't true of almost everything else that has been mentioned.

How did I not read it? His budget is £5k so not irrelevant at all.

And if you look at what £3k gets you when it comes to a 330ci its a moneypit with over 100k miles. Show us examples of all these decent £3k 330ci's........ I'm sure we'd all like to see where you are finding them.

Oh and the rear subframe boot floor cracking issues are quite a worry.

Brother purchased a bottom of the range £2800 330ci with full dealer SH and 150k on it. Was a complete money pit.

[rb5er]

Sump said:

Brother purchased a bottom of the range £2800 330ci with full dealer SH and 150k on it. Was a complete money pit.

My point exactly. I have known a few friends to buy them and them end up to be moneypits even when spending good money on sub 100k ones.

Very interested to see the list of all the decent ones for £3k......but I bet it doesn't materialise.

[jayemm89]

There is an issue with the cars having become cheap. You have to recall some of them were knocking on the door of 40K new, and cost a chunk to maintain if you're used to, I dunno, 1.6 focus prices.

I think people buying them cheap and skimping on servicing creates money pit cars. There will be good and bad examples of ANY car. Also, when a car only cost £3k to buy, your definition of a "scrap-worthy" problem may have been a "quick warranty claim" when the car was new. I would generally say the E46 is a reliable car, based solely on my experience with them and the people I know who have had them. In general, I see more issues with LOW mileage cars than high mileage ones.

[Sump]

jayemm89 said:

There is an issue with the cars having become cheap. You have to recall some of them were knocking on the door of 40K new, and cost a chunk to maintain if you're used to, I dunno, 1.6 focus prices.

This is actually a myth. BMWs are fundamentally garbage after 100k. They use crap seals which is the reason that every one of them is leaking out of every orifice, constant suspension niggles, rust issues, vanos issues, Disa issues, swirl flap issues, pixel issues, phantom shimmy issues, they are just fundamentally bad.

This is coming from someone who has owned:

330d 2004 E46
2002 530i Champagnge
2002 530i Aegean
330i 2006 E90
2005 X5

Luckily I am extremely handy with a spanner so it never bothered me but it just became tedious

Waits for the 'I have a mint 160k BMW brigade.'

[C70R]

Sump said:

This is actually a myth. BMWs are fundamentally garbage after 100k. They use crap seals which is the reason that every one of them is leaking out of every orifice, constant suspension niggles, rust issues, vanos issues, Disa issues, swirl flap issues, pixel issues, phantom shimmy issues, they are just fundamentally bad.

This is coming from someone who has owned:

330d 2004 E46
2002 530i Champagnge
2002 530i Aegean
330i 2006 E90
2005 X5

Luckily I am extremely handy with a spanner so it never bothered me but it just became tedious

Waits for the 'I have a mint 160k BMW brigade.'

Jeez. I don't know how I will deal with going home to drive my faultless 107k miler this weekend. I'm sure it will end in disaster, just like the internet says.

There's a reason that they are VERY popular (here and in the real world), and there's a reason why they are holding value better than most other cars of the same age. There have been two or three genuinely poor experiences among owners on this thread and the other thread on price, but the vast majority are hugely positive.

If you have an axe to grind, that's absolutely fine - every make/model suffers the occasional quality let-down, and not all owners know how to maintain cars. But don't suddenly try and turn it into some sort of consensus of opinion based on a sample of three people. Your brother bought a 330ci below average price, and clearly didn't buy well - had he known what to look for, he wouldn't have had so many problems. Perhaps he's better off buying cars with a warranty in future...

[Sump]

C70R said:

Sump said:

This is actually a myth. BMWs are fundamentally garbage after 100k. They use crap seals which is the reason that every one of them is leaking out of every orifice, constant suspension niggles, rust issues, vanos issues, Disa issues, swirl flap issues, pixel issues, phantom shimmy issues, they are just fundamentally bad.

This is coming from someone who has owned:

330d 2004 E46
2002 530i Champagnge
2002 530i Aegean
330i 2006 E90
2005 X5

Luckily I am extremely handy with a spanner so it never bothered me but it just became tedious

Waits for the 'I have a mint 160k BMW brigade.'

Jeez. I don't know how I will deal with going home to drive my faultless 107k miler this weekend. I'm sure it will end in disaster, just like the internet says.

There's a reason that they are VERY popular (here and in the real world), and there's a reason why they are holding value better than most other cars of the same age. There have been two or three genuinely poor experiences among owners on this thread and the other thread on price, but the vast majority are hugely positive.

If you have an axe to grind, that's absolutely fine - every make/model suffers the occasional quality let-down, and not all owners know how to maintain cars. But don't suddenly try and turn it into some sort of consensus of opinion based on a sample of three people. Your brother bought a 330ci below average price, and clearly didn't buy well - had he known what to look for, he wouldn't have had so many problems. Perhaps he's better off buying cars with a warranty in future...

You do realise that list was not for his car? How did swirl flaps get on his car?

He just had the usual FCABs, rear main seal, thermostat and torque converter input shaft seal started to go. All typical problems. He got it as a cheap run around whilst he sourced something good.

Don't test my knowledge on the M54 era

[C70R]

rb5er said:

Sump said:

Brother purchased a bottom of the range £2800 330ci with full dealer SH and 150k on it. Was a complete money pit.

My point exactly. I have known a few friends to buy them and them end up to be moneypits even when spending good money on sub 100k ones.

Very interested to see the list of all the decent ones for £3k......but I bet it doesn't materialise.

Was I not on a (very dull) conference call, I wouldn't normally bother. As I mentioned (repeatedly), "£3-3.5k" is the median value for these cars. Here are 3 examples of nice ones (for you to pick inevitable, and unjustified, holes in), that took me 10secs to find on Autotrader.
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2016...
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2015...
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2015...

[Kawasicki]

RobM77 said:

I agree that the E46 330ci was a lowpoint for BMW; I prefer the E30 and E36 that went before it and the E90 that came after it (I’ve owned an E36 325i, E36 328i SC, E46 330ci & I currently own an E90). That said, most E30s and E36s are staring in the face of unpredictable and significant bills (in terms of % of purchase price) and E90s are out of budget compared to the E46, so the E46 definitely has its place in the market. If handling doesn’t interest you (as with most on PH it seems), then yes, some of the alternatives mentioned so far are definitely worth considering, although I would personally still rate the E46 higher; it has better bhp/mpg than most of its rivals, it was the quietest car in its class that Autocar measured at a steady 70mph, the reliability, whilst not stellar, is very reasonable, and the driving position is better than most of the competition too. The one downside is that the E46 is very refined and cruiser like compared to, for example, the Mondeo ST, which may change some people’s minds. For me though, handling rules the roost and the E46’s average to good rear drive chassis is way more appealing even than a very good FWD chassis for this money.

Regarding the comparison with the M3, I again agree entirely. I was quite disappointed by the E46 M3 to be honest when I drove one (a low mileage well cared for example). I realise they’re hailed as a great driver’s car, but most of the time if you’re not caning it I reckon they feel pretty much like an E46 330ci and in that respect they’re a total master of disguise. If you open it up then the engine, diff and suspension (in that order) are quite obviously quite a step on from the E46 330ci – the M3 gets better the faster you drive it, whereas the 330ci raises some of its flaws (the awful laggy DSC controlled open diff being the main annoyance!). If I’d forked out the bills for an M3 though I’d want it to feel more special from day to day and to me it felt like a 330ci.

To answer the OP’s question though, if you can’t stretch to an E90 and don’t want to risk an E36 328i, then no, I don’t think there are any serious rivals. However, if you’re into image and ‘spec’ and other things like that frequently talked about on PH, then I can’t comment – I’m talking purely from a driving point of view in terms of the chassis, engine and controls and an ownership point of view in terms of comfort and refinement.

Finally, I would buy carefully with an earlier model. My 2000 model E46 330ci was the worst car I’ve ever owned and I couldn’t wait to see the back of it. Hateful, hateful thing. They did get better though, and there was an early life revision in 2002 I think.

Good post, I agree with most of it. E46 is also my least favourite 3 series, though I prefer the E46 m3 over the latest one.

[C70R]

Sump said:

C70R said:

Sump said:

This is actually a myth. BMWs are fundamentally garbage after 100k. They use crap seals which is the reason that every one of them is leaking out of every orifice, constant suspension niggles, rust issues, vanos issues, Disa issues, swirl flap issues, pixel issues, phantom shimmy issues, they are just fundamentally bad.

This is coming from someone who has owned:

330d 2004 E46
2002 530i Champagnge
2002 530i Aegean
330i 2006 E90
2005 X5

Luckily I am extremely handy with a spanner so it never bothered me but it just became tedious

Waits for the 'I have a mint 160k BMW brigade.'

Jeez. I don't know how I will deal with going home to drive my faultless 107k miler this weekend. I'm sure it will end in disaster, just like the internet says.

There's a reason that they are VERY popular (here and in the real world), and there's a reason why they are holding value better than most other cars of the same age. There have been two or three genuinely poor experiences among owners on this thread and the other thread on price, but the vast majority are hugely positive.

If you have an axe to grind, that's absolutely fine - every make/model suffers the occasional quality let-down, and not all owners know how to maintain cars. But don't suddenly try and turn it into some sort of consensus of opinion based on a sample of three people. Your brother bought a 330ci below average price, and clearly didn't buy well - had he known what to look for, he wouldn't have had so many problems. Perhaps he's better off buying cars with a warranty in future...

You do realise that list was not for his car? How did swirl flaps get on his car?

He just had the usual FCABs, rear main seal, thermostat and torque converter input shaft seal started to go. All typical problems. He got it as a cheap run around whilst he sourced something good.

Don't test my knowledge on the M54 era

I didn't suggest for a second that he had swirl flaps... No idea where you read that.

It just seems a bit stupid to buy a high mileage car at below average value, and then to be surprised when it throws up the kind of problems that high mileage cars do. I would expect to be called an idiot if I paid under market value for a high mileage car, then felt aggrieved that it needed work doing for bits failing. That's more of an indictment of your brother's expectations than of the E46...

[jayemm89]

Sump said:

Waits for the 'I have a mint 160k BMW brigade.'

You don't need to wait, we're here. Frankly, I should thank you. People like you mean that I am able to snap up fine automobiles at bargain prices simply because the odometer has now obtained six digits on it. I'm certainly never going to claim any car - even an E46 - is bomb-proof. They have well documented issues. But there are also a million buyers guides out there to help you identify common problems - and more importantly, plenty of them still on the road to mean you can pick and choose!

Now would you like to hear about my beautiful and reliable 163K mile 330Ci Clubsport, or my beautiful and new-to-me-but-tight-as-a-drum 132K mile M3? Or maybe I could just bore you about my 130K mile "only replaced a bulb in 15K miles" E63 645i?

Your logic is faultless of course because my most cheap BMW of all was my 27K mile Z4 M Coupe... oh no, wait, I did 4,000 miles in it and it cost me a fortune because the O2 sensors went pop.

[rb5er]

C70R said:

Here are 3 examples of nice ones (for you to pick inevitable, and unjustified, holes in), that took me 10secs to find on Autotrader.
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2016...
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2015...
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2015...

2 autos (cheap for that reason) and the middle one actually looks quite nice but at 120k miles I doubt very much that its a good buy.

So you can't find a manual one with decent mileage as you are proving.

[LankyLegoHead]

Every issue the 330ci I owned had (Bought for £2800, sold for a LOT less and cost me a LOT of money putting right) was considered a "Common Problem" I was genuinely shocked at how many problems they had. Some pretty dangerous.

To be fair, I did enjoy the car when it worked. Despite the constant fear of something expensive going wrong! it was on 130k when I got it, had a solid subframe (They crack on the 3.0 and M3) and even the Vanos seals were done.

In contrast, the MK1 Octavia VRS I had right after was flawless.

[jayemm89]

I once spent nigh-on £4k fixing "common problems" on a 993 Porsche. Legendary build quality indeed.

Trying to get roughly back on topic, I think the problem when looking at E46 alternatives, is most people want a six pot (or more) motor, RWD and a manual gearbox. Most of the alternatives for the money lose at least one of those things, and often didn't get as favourable reviews when new. Or have dated pretty badly.

[C70R]

rb5er said:

C70R said:

Here are 3 examples of nice ones (for you to pick inevitable, and unjustified, holes in), that took me 10secs to find on Autotrader.
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2016...
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2015...
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2015...

2 autos (cheap for that reason) and the middle one actually looks quite nice but at 120k miles I doubt very much that its a good buy.

So you can't find a manual one with decent mileage as you are proving.

I wasn't aware I was trying to find "a manual one with decent mileage". Some quality goalpost shifting going on there.

Think you might want to re-re-read the OP, again. Nowhere does he specify that he only wants an manual E46. The E46 autobox (as I'm sure you'll know, from your extensive experience) is among the better balanced auto/tip choices, and IMHO a better bet for a daily drive.

You seem to have curiously avoided posting all the quality, low mileage GT4s and Imprezas at £3-3.5k that you promised.

Edited by C70R on Friday 5th February 16:13

[RobM77]

C70R said:

Sump said:

C70R said:

Sump said:

This is actually a myth. BMWs are fundamentally garbage after 100k. They use crap seals which is the reason that every one of them is leaking out of every orifice, constant suspension niggles, rust issues, vanos issues, Disa issues, swirl flap issues, pixel issues, phantom shimmy issues, they are just fundamentally bad.

This is coming from someone who has owned:

330d 2004 E46
2002 530i Champagnge
2002 530i Aegean
330i 2006 E90
2005 X5

Luckily I am extremely handy with a spanner so it never bothered me but it just became tedious

Waits for the 'I have a mint 160k BMW brigade.'

Jeez. I don't know how I will deal with going home to drive my faultless 107k miler this weekend. I'm sure it will end in disaster, just like the internet says.

There's a reason that they are VERY popular (here and in the real world), and there's a reason why they are holding value better than most other cars of the same age. There have been two or three genuinely poor experiences among owners on this thread and the other thread on price, but the vast majority are hugely positive.

If you have an axe to grind, that's absolutely fine - every make/model suffers the occasional quality let-down, and not all owners know how to maintain cars. But don't suddenly try and turn it into some sort of consensus of opinion based on a sample of three people. Your brother bought a 330ci below average price, and clearly didn't buy well - had he known what to look for, he wouldn't have had so many problems. Perhaps he's better off buying cars with a warranty in future...

You do realise that list was not for his car? How did swirl flaps get on his car?

He just had the usual FCABs, rear main seal, thermostat and torque converter input shaft seal started to go. All typical problems. He got it as a cheap run around whilst he sourced something good.

Don't test my knowledge on the M54 era

I didn't suggest for a second that he had swirl flaps... No idea where you read that.

It just seems a bit stupid to buy a high mileage car at below average value, and then to be surprised when it throws up the kind of problems that high mileage cars do. I would expect to be called an idiot if I paid under market value for a high mileage car, then felt aggrieved that it needed work doing for bits failing. That's more of an indictment of your brother's expectations than of the E46...

I'm not going to pretend that BMW are up to Jap standards, but I think Sump's been unlucky there. My E90's on 136k miles and runs beautifully, and my E36 325i was fine up to 154k miles when I sold it. The 325i needed a rebuild on the gearbox and my E90 needed a new turbo, but that was it for their whole live lives, and I drive pretty quickly (understatement!) and live amongst twisty bumpy lanes that are quite hard on a car.

[rb5er]

C70R said:

I wasn't aware I was trying to find "a manual one with decent mileage". Some quality goalpost shifting going on there.

Think you might want to re-re-read the OP, again. Nowhere does he specify that he only wants an manual E46. The E46 autobox (as I'm sure you'll know, from your extensive experience) is among the better balanced auto/tip choices, and IMHO a better bet for a daily drive.

You seem to have curiously avoided posting all the quality, low mileage GT4s and Imprezas at £3-3.5k that you promised.

Edited by C70R on Friday 5th February 16:13

The autos are crap. I thought everybody knew that. Maybe my fault for not thinking about autos as I assumed the OP wanted a proper one. In that case yes they are dirt cheap and can you can easily pick up a high mileage crappy auto for 3k.

I never promised any low mileage imprezas or gt4s for £3.5k. I was saying at £5k they are a better buy. I'm sure if they also did a crappy auto then a high mileage one of those might be comparable in price.