Scary 911 moment

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Discussion

Steve H

5,224 posts

194 months

Friday 5th February 2016
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NRS said:
heebeegeetee said:
Steve H said:
OP, make sure the tyres and alignment is 100% before you listen to all the driving gods and blame yourself entirely.
Well said!

That's absolutely the first correct answer imo. Without doing alignment first all the other reasons are cobblers imho. smile

Of course I should add after checking tyres first, and that there wasn't something on the road surface (which I'd discount if others weren't having similar issues).

It doesn't sound right to me, I'd definitely not automatically assume its a problem with 911 or driver, more likely to be an individual issue with that particular car.

Edited by heebeegeetee on Thursday 4th February 18:32
Putting the throttle fully down from 4k rpm in a low gear in damp conditions in a 385hp car and you think it's most likely there's something wrong with the car?
The OP also said that the car had traction and stability control on and was virtually straight at the time.........

I've always found the wet grip under acceleration in these cars to be pretty impressive, the weight over the rear wheels has a huge positive effect and the "backwards through hedges" reputation typically relates more to the older versions, lifting off the throttle and cornering hard - none of which appear to be applicable to the OP's example.

v8250

2,724 posts

210 months

Friday 5th February 2016
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hurricaneone said:
Hi all,

I am convinced the car is trying to kill me, and have taken to driving like a monk.

Thoughts and experiences from other 911 owners please!
Hurricane, Porsche have an excellent driving book for newcomers to the 911, co-written Porsche and the Police Driver Training Centre, it's very useful...titled The Porsche Driving Book. And it really is worth getting some professional driving lessons that enables drivers of all backgrounds/abilities to learn the characteristics of their car in a safe driving environment. Especially useful if they have a large high speed skid pan...your road craft will improve tremendously, if only for feel and advance judgement of what the car will do. One particular skill taught is the relationship between steering wheel position [turn] to throttle to car balance...and with the 911, how the mass of the engine shifts on throttle off and its effect resulting in the proverbial life affirming brown trouser moments. Go find some good professional driver training and have some fun.

kambites

67,461 posts

220 months

Friday 5th February 2016
quotequote all
bennyboysvuk said:
I watched my father in law do the same thing, but on a skid-pan in a C63 AMG. He didn't have any idea what so ever about dialling in opposite lock. I would think that a massive percentage of drivers would behave like this.
I can understand people getting the throttle input wrong - lifting off is probably the most natural response if the car does something unexpected. However, if the back end steps out, surely the natural response with the steering is to try to keep the front wheels pointing in the direction you want the car to travel in?

DavidJG

3,507 posts

131 months

Friday 5th February 2016
quotequote all
hurricaneone said:
Hi all,

I am convinced the car is trying to kill me, and have taken to driving like a monk.

Thoughts and experiences from other 911 owners please!
One other question - how cold was it at the time. A damp road is bad, but on UK 'Summer' tyres a cold damp road is significantly worse. Our tyre compounds start to harden at around 7C, resulting in a loss of grip. If you drive a 'normal' low powered car this isn't always readily apparent, but I certainly notice a dramatic reduction of grip even on dry days as temperature drops. Not so much a factor in a 1.2 Clio, but by the time you've got > 250 bhp on tap and a relatively light car you start to notice that you break traction much earlier in cold weather.



hurricaneone

Original Poster:

13 posts

106 months

Friday 5th February 2016
quotequote all
Vyse said:
The description makes the scenario similar to this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miA5qj5ergM
Yes the start of the incident was exactly like this. I turned into it and the back end swung the other way, repeated the other way and then stopped.

heebeegeetee

28,591 posts

247 months

Friday 5th February 2016
quotequote all
NRS said:
Putting the throttle fully down from 4k rpm in a low gear in damp conditions in a 385hp car and you think it's most likely there's something wrong with the car?
Yes, absolutely, because if not we'd be seeing a lot more of this 911-behaving-like-a-TVR type comments much more, but we don't.

People just don't seem to take alignment at all seriously, and imo this thread is testament to this. People buy quite powerful or maybe rather specialist vehicles and don't check whether any of the four road wheels are pointing where they should.

This surprises me because until you do, you simply have no idea of what is underneath you and what it actually is. People may spend some years with a vehicle and may have plenty to say about a particular vehicle yet never checked if the car is in a spec that actually left the factory.

So yes, from the op's description I'd say it's an alignment issue. Even if it was worn tyres it doesn't sound quite right to me, unless there it's worn tyres and poor alignment.

Eta And of course until it's at least checked, the OP will never know. Imo all other theories are moot until alignment is ascertained.

Trouble is, getting it done *properly* in the UK can be bloody difficult.

Edited by heebeegeetee on Friday 5th February 08:33

jamieduff1981

8,022 posts

139 months

Friday 5th February 2016
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Pan Pan Pan said:
Vyse said:
The description makes the scenario similar to this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miA5qj5ergM
What seemed odd about this video is that the driver did not appear to attempt at making any steering correction to counter the slide, nor did he appear to lift off, after getting out of shape, all a bit odd really. Could the driver have been waiting for electronic aids to do the recovery for him?
I don't claim to be particularly talented, but the lack of lifting off the loud pedal is what's most alarming in that video.

The car even manages to get a gear change in whilst spinning both rear wheels.

Any sudden jump in revs without a matching push in the back should be hardwired in you brain to lighten your right foot a bit.

This driver just froze up.

It's what can happen when you don't explore your car gradually but instead just jump in head first into the unknown.

jamieduff1981

8,022 posts

139 months

Friday 5th February 2016
quotequote all
heebeegeetee said:
NRS said:
Putting the throttle fully down from 4k rpm in a low gear in damp conditions in a 385hp car and you think it's most likely there's something wrong with the car?
Yes, absolutely, because if not we'd be seeing a lot more of this 911-behaving-like-a-TVR type comments much more, but we don't.

People just don't seem to take alignment at all seriously, and imo this thread is testament to this. People buy quite powerful or maybe rather specialist vehicles and don't check whether any of the four road wheels are pointing where they should.

This surprises me because until you do, you simply have no idea of what is underneath you and what it actually is. People may spend some years with a vehicle and may have plenty to say about a particular vehicle yet never checked if the car is in a spec that actually left the factory.

So yes, from the op's description I'd say it's an alignment issue. Even if it was worn tyres it doesn't sound quite right to me, unless there it's worn tyres and poor alignment.

Eta And of course until it's at least checked, the OP will never know. Imo all other theories are moot until alignment is ascertained.

Trouble is, getting it done *properly* in the UK can be bloody difficult.

Edited by heebeegeetee on Friday 5th February 08:33
I don't disagree with your assertions, but I do fundamentally disagree with your conclusions.

Alignment is a big deal. Ultimately the driver has to work with what he has at the time. The car may have been degraded, but that doesn't change the fact that "exploring" a newish car that's still unfamiliar by booting the loud pedal from 4000rpm in 2nd in the wet is a bad move.

If there's a way to provoke a bite in the arse from a powerful car, that was it.

Alignment can substantially affect how much throttle you can get without drama, as well as how hard it is to control the car after loss of traction, but if the driver is going to go from steady state to WOT in one rapid movement, the alignment is the moot point, because the driver input is likely to cause loss of traction in those conditions anyway.

skyrover

12,668 posts

203 months

Friday 5th February 2016
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Welcome to the world of RWD cool


TorqueDirty

1,500 posts

218 months

Friday 5th February 2016
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cerb4.5lee said:
Agree and I think if I hadn't have owned a 200SX for four years previous to my Cerbera I am sure I would have smashed it up...they are just so lively and unpredictable but great fun when you manage to hold onto them.

I remember doing 80mph in the dry on a straight road and I hit a gentle bump in the road and it almost threw me off into a field!
Am I the only one who thinks this does NOT sound like a vast amount of fun? Mind you having owned a 500 Chim for a couple of years the situation does sound familiar. Perhaps "fun in hindsight" is a better descriptor for these moments!


LordGrover

33,531 posts

211 months

Friday 5th February 2016
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Reg Local said:
OP, if you're ever in the North of England, drop me a PM - I can sort out yout cornering issues and give you much more confidence in your 911 in a couple of hours.
Now that's an offer you really ought not refuse. clap

LordHaveMurci

12,034 posts

168 months

Friday 5th February 2016
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hurricaneone - what was your previous car?

cerb4.5lee

30,189 posts

179 months

Friday 5th February 2016
quotequote all
TorqueDirty said:
cerb4.5lee said:
Agree and I think if I hadn't have owned a 200SX for four years previous to my Cerbera I am sure I would have smashed it up...they are just so lively and unpredictable but great fun when you manage to hold onto them.

I remember doing 80mph in the dry on a straight road and I hit a gentle bump in the road and it almost threw me off into a field!
Am I the only one who thinks this does NOT sound like a vast amount of fun? Mind you having owned a 500 Chim for a couple of years the situation does sound familiar. Perhaps "fun in hindsight" is a better descriptor for these moments!
Yes I agree and scary is more apt than fun for sure.

jamieduff1981

8,022 posts

139 months

Friday 5th February 2016
quotequote all
TorqueDirty said:
cerb4.5lee said:
Agree and I think if I hadn't have owned a 200SX for four years previous to my Cerbera I am sure I would have smashed it up...they are just so lively and unpredictable but great fun when you manage to hold onto them.

I remember doing 80mph in the dry on a straight road and I hit a gentle bump in the road and it almost threw me off into a field!
Am I the only one who thinks this does NOT sound like a vast amount of fun? Mind you having owned a 500 Chim for a couple of years the situation does sound familiar. Perhaps "fun in hindsight" is a better descriptor for these moments!
I'm going to sound like I've about-turned, but they are geometry sensitive.

There is some bump steer (mine has some mods to reduce this) and bump steer is worsened with lower ride heights which some people do with Cerbs for appearance.

A well set-up Cerb is playful rather than lethal, on the proviso that you have some basic RWD experience and don't over-commit.

I genuinely think mine is fun, and quite enjoy provoking a bit of wheelspin intentionally under the right circumstances.

There's a big difference in a Cerbera (and most cars tbh) between sliding about with excess power at lowish speeds and sliding around due to excess energy.

Similar to the old mobile phone argument versus drink driving - where you can drop the phone easier than sober up on demand, you can lift off the accelerator pedal but you can't do hellish much to save your skin if you just dive into a bend too fast.

The Cerb is very controllable so long as you're a step ahead of the car and actively driving it, rather than thinking about something unrelated and reacting to unexpected movements.

cerb4.5lee

30,189 posts

179 months

Friday 5th February 2016
quotequote all
jamieduff1981 said:
The Cerb is very controllable so long as you're a step ahead of the car and actively driving it, rather than thinking about something unrelated and reacting to unexpected movements.
I am far from a driving god but I always enjoyed messing about in deserted car parks years ago in my 200sx and my mates RWD Saff cossie just to learn how the cars behave and give me a little bit of practice.

I also remember taking a chap out in my Cerbera at a Hampshire TVR meet who was looking to buy one and it was a cold and damp November day and the rear end was dancing around and I just kept reacting to it with ease and it felt really rewarding, and if you are on top of the game the Cerbera is immensely rewarding to have fun in for sure.

This is only making me miss it even more. frown

hurricaneone

Original Poster:

13 posts

106 months

Friday 5th February 2016
quotequote all
LordHaveMurci said:
hurricaneone - what was your previous car?
Fast(ish) BMW 3 series

jamieduff1981

8,022 posts

139 months

Friday 5th February 2016
quotequote all
cerb4.5lee said:
jamieduff1981 said:
The Cerb is very controllable so long as you're a step ahead of the car and actively driving it, rather than thinking about something unrelated and reacting to unexpected movements.
I am far from a driving god but I always enjoyed messing about in deserted car parks years ago in my 200sx and my mates RWD Saff cossie just to learn how the cars behave and give me a little bit of practice.

I also remember taking a chap out in my Cerbera at a Hampshire TVR meet who was looking to buy one and it was a cold and damp November day and the rear end was dancing around and I just kept reacting to it with ease and it felt really rewarding, and if you are on top of the game the Cerbera is immensely rewarding to have fun in for sure.

This is only making me miss it even more. frown
Get one bought. You know you're not happy with these BMWs of yours Lee. wink

cerb4.5lee

30,189 posts

179 months

Friday 5th February 2016
quotequote all
jamieduff1981 said:
cerb4.5lee said:
jamieduff1981 said:
The Cerb is very controllable so long as you're a step ahead of the car and actively driving it, rather than thinking about something unrelated and reacting to unexpected movements.
I am far from a driving god but I always enjoyed messing about in deserted car parks years ago in my 200sx and my mates RWD Saff cossie just to learn how the cars behave and give me a little bit of practice.

I also remember taking a chap out in my Cerbera at a Hampshire TVR meet who was looking to buy one and it was a cold and damp November day and the rear end was dancing around and I just kept reacting to it with ease and it felt really rewarding, and if you are on top of the game the Cerbera is immensely rewarding to have fun in for sure.

This is only making me miss it even more. frown
Get one bought. You know you're not happy with these BMWs of yours Lee. wink
You know me too well! thumbup

Pan Pan Pan

9,777 posts

110 months

Friday 5th February 2016
quotequote all
bennyboysvuk said:
Pan Pan Pan said:
Vyse said:
The description makes the scenario similar to this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miA5qj5ergM
What seemed odd about this video is that the driver did not appear to attempt at making any steering correction to counter the slide, nor did he appear to lift off, after getting out of shape, all a bit odd really. Could the driver have been waiting for electronic aids to do the recovery for him?
I watched my father in law do the same thing, but on a skid-pan in a C63 AMG. He didn't have any idea what so ever about dialling in opposite lock. I would think that a massive percentage of drivers would behave like this. Another large percentage would likely do as Jamie said and apply lock initially, then lift off and not be able to unwind it quickly enough to stop the second swing of the tail.

All I can recommend is practising every day if possible. smiledriving
I don't believe I was the only one doing it, but even when playing at driving a car, as a 6 year old kid in the school playground I was practising doing the opposite lock stuff I had seen on the racetrack. I get a bit embarrassed about doing it in public places now though!

DonkeyApple

54,923 posts

168 months

Friday 5th February 2016
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Monkeylegend said:
Many a TVR been written off leaving roundabouts.
And joining motorways!!!!

Lots of people bought TVRs after years of driving FWD cars and got proper shocks from not appreciating the different laws of physics. biggrin