Scary 911 moment
Discussion
Any dampness whatsoever and a powerfull rear wheel drive car and all bets are off. You'd have to work hard in bone dry summer weather to loose the back end but cold damp winter roads you need your concentration camp regardless of what driver aids you have, still just rubber between you and the road !
Been there, done it, as I'm willing to bet a few people on here have as well. RWD can be unforgiving, but can be huge fun as well.
Interesting I found a 123D with a remap harder to recover when it got out of shape than a 997 911. Though some of that may have been the horrible run flats on damp cold surfaces, well that my excuse anyway. And I think I may have always respected the 997 a bit more than the BMW !
As other have said go out and enjoy the 911 and start building up the confidence in it.
Interesting I found a 123D with a remap harder to recover when it got out of shape than a 997 911. Though some of that may have been the horrible run flats on damp cold surfaces, well that my excuse anyway. And I think I may have always respected the 997 a bit more than the BMW !
As other have said go out and enjoy the 911 and start building up the confidence in it.
Edited by richs2891 on Wednesday 3rd February 21:00
Stability control isn't designed to keep a car straight. It is designed to keep a car moving in the direction the steering wheel is pointed. Having sat beside hundreds of people at the limit, I would say there is no guarantee that the op actually pointed the steering wheel in the direction he wanted to go.
And diesel or oil spills. It doesn't matter what tyres you have fitted, to what car, if you hit a patch (and patches can be pretty massive) you need luck and skill to come out of it without an issue.
Wide tyres on the back of a 911 are primarily not for traction by the way. The primary reason is steering stability.
And diesel or oil spills. It doesn't matter what tyres you have fitted, to what car, if you hit a patch (and patches can be pretty massive) you need luck and skill to come out of it without an issue.
Wide tyres on the back of a 911 are primarily not for traction by the way. The primary reason is steering stability.
As the others have said, it's a sudden "flooring" that caused this, coupled with likely slow reaction times.
My Cerbera has easily enough power to do this, and even on a cold dry day will break traction at around 50mph in 2nd gear as the revs rise taking the torque with it and suddenly the torque applied to the wheels exceeds the traction available. Just wang the accelerator open suddenly and it'll do it in 4th on a damp road. Progressively open the throttles, allowing weight to transfer to the rear wheels and load them up allows much more power to be applied - but even foot to the floor in 3rd will result in loss of traction on a dry road. That's all fine - it's a TVR and anyone who doesn't expect it will soon be a statistic.
My XFR-S on the other hand is far more dangerous. It's a very well sorted chassis and about as much fun as a family car can be to drive. However - the fact is that with over 500lb.ft of torque from a supercharged 5 litre with a very non-German throttle response, no turbo lag to soften inputs, coupled with RWD via an active limited slip differential it will break traction on both rear wheels with either sudden OR wide throttle opening from pretty much any RPM in the wet, which can be quite alarming at first, yawing the car quite violently before the full-granny-mode DSC even wakes up. The DSC will prevent any drama if the over-use of power is gradual, but doing what you did OP will have the car snaking its way up the road with both rear tyres alight easily.
In the nicest possible way - you are still getting used to a high performance car - you've done the worst thing possible. Damp road (apart from aquaplaning potential, I personally find that a damp road is as slippery as a full wet one - if the tyres can disperse the water then it's entirely down to whether the compound grips the tarmac or not. Dry good, water molecules in between tyre and tarmac bad), low gear, revs just where a decent sized naturally aspirated engine makes its best torque or thereabouts and then you wellied the throttle wide open without managing the weight transfer.
If you're reactions are good (and you have experience) you can prevent the fishtailing-come-spin by undoing the stupid thing you just did - i.e. immediately put the throttle back where you had it before making the mistake. Dipping the clutch if you have 3 pedals works too. Both of these need to be done before the yaw angle gets too far. You also need to be right on the ball with your corrective steering and unwinding thereof. Many people catch the first yaw but are too slow to unwind it as the back end comes back in again and they swing the other way through a combination of angular momentum the car builds up and their own steering input encouraging it.
What you need to do is explore what the car can cope with gradually. Open the throttle a little bit more each time you leave a roundabout in various conditions and you'll learn what the car can do. Just going straight for full throttle is something that only a slow car lets you away with.
My Cerbera has easily enough power to do this, and even on a cold dry day will break traction at around 50mph in 2nd gear as the revs rise taking the torque with it and suddenly the torque applied to the wheels exceeds the traction available. Just wang the accelerator open suddenly and it'll do it in 4th on a damp road. Progressively open the throttles, allowing weight to transfer to the rear wheels and load them up allows much more power to be applied - but even foot to the floor in 3rd will result in loss of traction on a dry road. That's all fine - it's a TVR and anyone who doesn't expect it will soon be a statistic.
My XFR-S on the other hand is far more dangerous. It's a very well sorted chassis and about as much fun as a family car can be to drive. However - the fact is that with over 500lb.ft of torque from a supercharged 5 litre with a very non-German throttle response, no turbo lag to soften inputs, coupled with RWD via an active limited slip differential it will break traction on both rear wheels with either sudden OR wide throttle opening from pretty much any RPM in the wet, which can be quite alarming at first, yawing the car quite violently before the full-granny-mode DSC even wakes up. The DSC will prevent any drama if the over-use of power is gradual, but doing what you did OP will have the car snaking its way up the road with both rear tyres alight easily.
In the nicest possible way - you are still getting used to a high performance car - you've done the worst thing possible. Damp road (apart from aquaplaning potential, I personally find that a damp road is as slippery as a full wet one - if the tyres can disperse the water then it's entirely down to whether the compound grips the tarmac or not. Dry good, water molecules in between tyre and tarmac bad), low gear, revs just where a decent sized naturally aspirated engine makes its best torque or thereabouts and then you wellied the throttle wide open without managing the weight transfer.
If you're reactions are good (and you have experience) you can prevent the fishtailing-come-spin by undoing the stupid thing you just did - i.e. immediately put the throttle back where you had it before making the mistake. Dipping the clutch if you have 3 pedals works too. Both of these need to be done before the yaw angle gets too far. You also need to be right on the ball with your corrective steering and unwinding thereof. Many people catch the first yaw but are too slow to unwind it as the back end comes back in again and they swing the other way through a combination of angular momentum the car builds up and their own steering input encouraging it.
What you need to do is explore what the car can cope with gradually. Open the throttle a little bit more each time you leave a roundabout in various conditions and you'll learn what the car can do. Just going straight for full throttle is something that only a slow car lets you away with.
Edited by jamieduff1981 on Wednesday 3rd February 20:38
ryandoc said:
Any dampness whatsoever and a powerfull rear wheel drive car and all bets are off.
This. If anything greasy roads are worse than roads that have been properly rained on because oil etc will have been "lifted" off the surface without actually being washed away by a sustained downpour.
In general you should be wary of flooring it whilst changing direction (eg. overtaking) until you're more comfortable with how the car behaves. PSM et al won't overcome physics.
One observation (and not terribly relevant as I'm benchmarking a 996) but Porsche stability control is a lot less intrusive than most and will let the car get further out of shape than BMW and Mercedes systems (that I have experiance of).
I think it's really well calibrated to be a genuine safety net but it won't catch you early when things go wrong.
I think it's really well calibrated to be a genuine safety net but it won't catch you early when things go wrong.
Get2Jaime said:
steelej said:
I'm sorry to say it's not a 911 issue 
Any rear wheel drive car in the wet or damp conditions if you floor it like you did will probably wag the tail a bit. If you don't have much experience in what's required to correct it then it might be worthwhile having a go on a skid pan where you can experience it in a controlled manner.
The lesson in this situation though is don't floor it like you did in the wet, smooth progressive application of power is required in wet conditions
John.
I disagree, most rear wheel drive cars do not have an engine and a significant proportion of the cars weight in the rear, over the rear wheels.Any rear wheel drive car in the wet or damp conditions if you floor it like you did will probably wag the tail a bit. If you don't have much experience in what's required to correct it then it might be worthwhile having a go on a skid pan where you can experience it in a controlled manner.
The lesson in this situation though is don't floor it like you did in the wet, smooth progressive application of power is required in wet conditions
John.
In addition, most cars do not have the torque and power of the 911, further amplifying the issue.
What the OP is creating is the 911 pendulum type effect and can be fatal if not tamed correctly, but rest assured this is one of the features of the car and why the rear tyres are so wide!
Just take it easy, especially in the wet and learn over time the outer limits of what the car is capable of.
Straight line, full throttle acceleration, in the damp, from 4k rpm (pretty much heading for peak torque in an N/A), and its the cars fault?? Really??
Weight over the rear aids accel and grip, not the other way round,
If he'd blarted out of a corner, at speed and booted it, then yes, weight at the rear would be the pendulum, but not in this case (unless truth is not being told about when he floored it)
I diagnose initial power oversteer which the 911 is good at but the weight at the back helps control followed by a bit of a fright and lift off oversteer which the 911 is very good at. Call the lovely people at the Porsche Experience Centre Silverstone and book yourself in for 1/2 day with your car. £350. Great value. Nice grub. If tyre tread under 3mm buy new ones. Decent ones. That match properly. May the Force be with you.
jamieduff1981 said:
As the others have said, it's a sudden "flooring" that caused this, coupled with likely slow reaction times.
My Cerbera has easily enough power to do this, and even on a cold dry day will break traction at around 50mph in 2nd gear as the revs rise taking the torque with it and suddenly the torque applied to the wheels exceeds the traction available. Just wang the accelerator open suddenly and it'll do it in 4th on a damp road. Progressively open the throttles, allowing weight to transfer to the rear wheels and load them up allows much more power to be applied - but even foot to the floor in 3rd will result in loss of traction on a dry road. That's all fine - it's a TVR and anyone who doesn't expect it will soon be a statistic.
My XFR-S on the other hand is far more dangerous. It's a very well sorted chassis and about as much fun as a family car can be to drive. However - the fact is that with over 500lb.ft of torque from a supercharged 5 litre with a very non-German throttle response, no turbo lag to soften inputs, coupled with RWD via an active limited slip differential it will break traction on both rear wheels with either sudden OR wide throttle opening from pretty much any RPM in the wet, which can be quite alarming at first, yawing the car quite violently before the full-granny-mode DSC even wakes up. The DSC will prevent any drama if the over-use of power is gradual, but doing what you did OP will have the car snaking its way up the road with both rear tyres alight easily.
In the nicest possible way - you are still getting used to a high performance car - you've done the worst thing possible. Damp road (apart from aquaplaning potential, I personally find that a damp road is as slippery as a full wet one - if the tyres can disperse the water then it's entirely down to whether the compound grips the tarmac or not. Dry good, water molecules in between tyre and tarmac bad), low gear, revs just where a decent sized naturally aspirated engine makes its best torque or thereabouts and then you wellied the throttle wide open without managing the weight transfer.
If you're reactions are good (and you have experience) you can prevent the fishtailing-come-spin by undoing the stupid thing you just did - i.e. immediately put the throttle back where you had it before making the mistake. Dipping the clutch if you have 3 pedals works too. Both of these need to be done before the yaw angle gets too far. You also need to be right on the ball with your corrective steering and unwinding thereof. Many people catch the first yaw but are too slow to unwind it as the back end comes back in again and they swing the other way through a combination of angular momentum the car builds up and their own steering input encouraging it.
What you need to do is explore what the car can cope with gradually. Open the throttle a little bit more each time you leave a roundabout in various conditions and you'll learn what the car can do. Just going straight for full throttle is something that only a slow car lets you away with.
Thanks, great input.My Cerbera has easily enough power to do this, and even on a cold dry day will break traction at around 50mph in 2nd gear as the revs rise taking the torque with it and suddenly the torque applied to the wheels exceeds the traction available. Just wang the accelerator open suddenly and it'll do it in 4th on a damp road. Progressively open the throttles, allowing weight to transfer to the rear wheels and load them up allows much more power to be applied - but even foot to the floor in 3rd will result in loss of traction on a dry road. That's all fine - it's a TVR and anyone who doesn't expect it will soon be a statistic.
My XFR-S on the other hand is far more dangerous. It's a very well sorted chassis and about as much fun as a family car can be to drive. However - the fact is that with over 500lb.ft of torque from a supercharged 5 litre with a very non-German throttle response, no turbo lag to soften inputs, coupled with RWD via an active limited slip differential it will break traction on both rear wheels with either sudden OR wide throttle opening from pretty much any RPM in the wet, which can be quite alarming at first, yawing the car quite violently before the full-granny-mode DSC even wakes up. The DSC will prevent any drama if the over-use of power is gradual, but doing what you did OP will have the car snaking its way up the road with both rear tyres alight easily.
In the nicest possible way - you are still getting used to a high performance car - you've done the worst thing possible. Damp road (apart from aquaplaning potential, I personally find that a damp road is as slippery as a full wet one - if the tyres can disperse the water then it's entirely down to whether the compound grips the tarmac or not. Dry good, water molecules in between tyre and tarmac bad), low gear, revs just where a decent sized naturally aspirated engine makes its best torque or thereabouts and then you wellied the throttle wide open without managing the weight transfer.
If you're reactions are good (and you have experience) you can prevent the fishtailing-come-spin by undoing the stupid thing you just did - i.e. immediately put the throttle back where you had it before making the mistake. Dipping the clutch if you have 3 pedals works too. Both of these need to be done before the yaw angle gets too far. You also need to be right on the ball with your corrective steering and unwinding thereof. Many people catch the first yaw but are too slow to unwind it as the back end comes back in again and they swing the other way through a combination of angular momentum the car builds up and their own steering input encouraging it.
What you need to do is explore what the car can cope with gradually. Open the throttle a little bit more each time you leave a roundabout in various conditions and you'll learn what the car can do. Just going straight for full throttle is something that only a slow car lets you away with.
Edited by jamieduff1981 on Wednesday 3rd February 20:38
PASM should have helped and cut power/applied braking to stop the car spinning.
I'd check the geo and condition of the tyres if this is the general behaviour of the car. If it's generally ok, it could have been diesel/petrol on the road.
Like for like, a 997 should have more traction when applying power, than the more common front engined, rear wheel drive cars because of the weight over the driven rear wheels. So should be harder to spin. It's easier to spin with lift off oversteer, again because of the layout of the engine.
I'd check the geo and condition of the tyres if this is the general behaviour of the car. If it's generally ok, it could have been diesel/petrol on the road.
Like for like, a 997 should have more traction when applying power, than the more common front engined, rear wheel drive cars because of the weight over the driven rear wheels. So should be harder to spin. It's easier to spin with lift off oversteer, again because of the layout of the engine.
You are still intact, as is the car. If you're confident in your ability then learn from it, if you question your ability then book a course of some sort and learn from it.
It'd be easy to say driver error/we are driving gods crafted from the bones of dead racing drivers but no one on here hasn't had a poo inducing moment! If you learn from it then it served its purpose.
It'd be easy to say driver error/we are driving gods crafted from the bones of dead racing drivers but no one on here hasn't had a poo inducing moment! If you learn from it then it served its purpose.
Speedgirl said:
I diagnose initial power oversteer which the 911 is good at but the weight at the back helps control followed by a bit of a fright and lift off oversteer which the 911 is very good at. Call the lovely people at the Porsche Experience Centre Silverstone and book yourself in for 1/2 day with your car. £350. Great value. Nice grub. If tyre tread under 3mm buy new ones. Decent ones. That match properly. May the Force be with you.
Sounds sensible, and you have a good excuse for a half day at Silverstone as suggested!Tyres aren't Davanti are they?
OP - just to prove the point:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PznD-hiEm68
From about 4:55 in to will do. The Cerbera 50mph special is at 5:50.
No need to watch the rest - it's a crap video (my first drive with a GoPro and I learned lots of ways not video cars)
Powerful RWD cars break traction in a straight line. They just do. There's no point blaming the car or the tyres or pretending there was diesel on the road because if something else is always to blame you'll make the same mistake again IMHO.
Learning to manage powerful RWD cars is what makes them so rewarding.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PznD-hiEm68
From about 4:55 in to will do. The Cerbera 50mph special is at 5:50.
No need to watch the rest - it's a crap video (my first drive with a GoPro and I learned lots of ways not video cars)
Powerful RWD cars break traction in a straight line. They just do. There's no point blaming the car or the tyres or pretending there was diesel on the road because if something else is always to blame you'll make the same mistake again IMHO.
Learning to manage powerful RWD cars is what makes them so rewarding.
Speedgirl said:
I diagnose initial power oversteer which the 911 is good at but the weight at the back helps control followed by a bit of a fright and lift off oversteer which the 911 is very good at. Call the lovely people at the Porsche Experience Centre Silverstone and book yourself in for 1/2 day with your car. £350. Great value. Nice grub. If tyre tread under 3mm buy new ones. Decent ones. That match properly. May the Force be with you.
+1I used to make the back end of my S2000 come around on me with ease, on purpose, on mini roundabouts, for fun and to see other people's reactions, and that had a relatively low amount of torque. More power tends to shorten the window before it breaks away but imo they'll all do it given the right (wrong?) amount of goading. Weight at the back in those situations does not help.
There's a lot to be said for getting to know your car, its character (RWD arguably all have one) and as others have said an experience day sounds like it would be ideal.
I still get questions asked of me from time to time driving a RWD car, and I consider myself fairly experienced. I'll bet most RWD owners do too.
You didn't crash, and you now have an idea of how your car behaves. Don't feel like you have to drive it with kid gloves, just realise that it's a bit of an animal. Take liberties and it'll bite you very quickly.
Edited by Durzel on Wednesday 3rd February 21:24
jamieduff1981 said:
Powerful RWD cars break traction in a straight line. They just do. There's no point blaming the car or the tyres or pretending there was diesel on the road because if something else is always to blame you'll make the same mistake again IMHO.
Learning to manage powerful RWD cars is what makes them so rewarding.
I'm just more surprised the ESP didn't cut the power sooner. Usually doesn't take much for it to just kill everything with a heavy foot and have next to no drama.Learning to manage powerful RWD cars is what makes them so rewarding.
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