Scary 911 moment

[jamieduff1981]

Patrick Bateman said:

jamieduff1981 said:

Powerful RWD cars break traction in a straight line. They just do. There's no point blaming the car or the tyres or pretending there was diesel on the road because if something else is always to blame you'll make the same mistake again IMHO.

Learning to manage powerful RWD cars is what makes them so rewarding.

I'm just more surprised the ESP didn't cut the power sooner. Usually doesn't take much for it to just kill everything with a heavy foot and have next to no drama.

As above my big Jag's magic button doesn't help much either. Sure the light will flash away on the dashboard but the electronics are reactive systems and have to wait until Rear wheel rpm >> front wheel rpm before it knows there's a problem by that time there's often already a yaw angle on and really it's down to the driver what happens after that point. The electronics can't coordinate matching rear wheel rpm to road speed whilst winding off steering lock just as the tail swings back in.

Big wide tyres afford a lot of mechanical grip but also a very sudden breakaway.

[Oilchange]

Speedgirl said:

I diagnose initial power oversteer which the 911 is good at but the weight at the back helps control followed by a bit of a fright and lift off oversteer which the 911 is very good at. Call the lovely people at the Porsche Experience Centre Silverstone and book yourself in for 1/2 day with your car. £350. Great value. Nice grub. If tyre tread under 3mm buy new ones. Decent ones. That match properly. May the Force be with you.

What she said ^ or simply get on a skid pan and practice holding the slide/recovering. You'll be better prepared when the back end lets go again on the road

Edited by Oilchange on Wednesday 3rd February 22:03

[nickfrog]

Alpinestars said:

PASM should have helped and cut power/applied braking to stop the car spinning.

I doubt it, they're clever dampers, but not that clever

It's PSM you're thinking off - it's easy to overcome it in the wet in a low gear with less than smooth inputs.

[nickfrog]

Steve H said:

OP, make sure the tyres and alignment is 100% before you listen to all the driving gods and blame yourself entirely.

What is a driving god ?

[jamieduff1981]

nickfrog said:

Steve H said:

OP, make sure the tyres and alignment is 100% before you listen to all the driving gods and blame yourself entirely.

What is a driving god ?

Someone who takes responsibility for the fact that they are the only person pressing pedals and twirling the steering wheel, apparently.

[NDNDNDND]

nickfrog said:

What is a driving god ?

Archetypal Pistonheads Driving God:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHeKOEN_0sM

[Herman Toothrot]

Flooring it not straight in the wet, off a roundabout so in these diesel days probably where overfills slosh over in a 997 so what 340bhp and you are suprised it stepped out?? 997 is more or less mid engined it's a right pussy cat, if you were in an air cooled you'd have just written it off (through crap driving).

[Alpinestars]

nickfrog said:

Alpinestars said:

PASM should have helped and cut power/applied braking to stop the car spinning.

I doubt it, they're clever dampers, but not that clever

It's PSM you're thinking off - it's easy to overcome it in the wet in a low gear with less than smooth inputs.

Those dampers are damn clever! PSM it is.

[Digby]

jamieduff1981 said:

Learning to manage powerful RWD cars is what makes them so rewarding.

...without all the electronic crap.

[donkmeister]

hurricaneone said:

Lesson learned and humble pie in the oven.

This is the second most important bit, after the bit where you mentioned you did it when there was no-one/nothing around to hit.

The people who HAVEN'T had a brown-trouser moment in a RWD sportscar can be divided into two types of people:
1) Those who have never owned a RWD sportscar
2) Those who should have just realised cars aren't their "thing" and bought a Ford Focus.

RWD cars wag their tails. They wag them more on wet roads, even more on dieselly roads, and the wags become less predictable the further back the engine is. What YOU have is a perfect storm of slippery road, engine further back than it should be and a grinning driver sticking the boot in, not expecting it to spin/fishtail because it's never done it before.

I've done similar on diesel with 160bhp and a mid-engine. I've known people do it on a moist road with fewer horsies and a front engine.

You've had a scare, nothing bad came of it, but it appears to have galvanised you into becoming a better driver. Do that!

[nickfrog]

NDNDNDND said:

nickfrog said:

What is a driving god ?

Archetypal Pistonheads Driving God:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHeKOEN_0sM

Brilliant ! That made me laugh...

[Ozzie Osmond]

I think there are two possible explanations,

1. A surplus of power over grip,
or
2. A surplus of enthusiasm over talent.

Well actually, perhaps that's all the same explanation...

[Flat6er]

It happens. Don't worry too old much about it. You've learned more about your cars handling characteristics.

Check your tyres and maybe book a session with some tuition where you can 'learn' in relative safety.

People bemoan it but I learned loads from my various sessions at Porsche experience centre at Silverstone.

http://www.porsche.com/silverstone/en/experience/p...

I reckon the advice from the guys there has saved my pride on more than one occasion now.

Edited by Flat6er on Wednesday 3rd February 22:53

[Pan Pan Pan]

Digby said:

jamieduff1981 said:

Learning to manage powerful RWD cars is what makes them so rewarding.

...without all the electronic crap.

Absolutely. Try driving something like a Caterham 7 in all weathers, and the person doing the driving will begin to understand what true car control is all about. No electronic aids whatsoever in conjunction with non power assisted steering and brakes.
The best option, as someone has already pointed out, would be to do some high performance driving training, with the Porsche option where you can train on the specific type of car you have / will be driving, would be a good start. Better than stuffing your car into an Armco.

[shambolic]

Get2Jaime said:

I disagree, most rear wheel drive cars do not have an engine and a significant proportion of the cars weight in the rear, over the rear wheels.

In addition, most cars do not have the torque and power of the 911, further amplifying the issue.

What the OP is creating is the 911 pendulum type effect and can be fatal if not tamed correctly, but rest assured this is one of the features of the car and why the rear tyres are so wide!

Just take it easy, especially in the wet and learn over time the outer limits of what the car is capable of.

Pish. My wife's SLK diesel does the same in the wet/damp. It's no beast but if you "floor it" as the OP said coming of a roundabout, the back end fishtails about.
It's only 200 odd brake and engine at the front but basic physics say if car is slightly sideways and you push it out further using the throttle, then it will spin.
It's like jujitsu I use momentum, fulcrums and my weight to shift an opponent into a position I want. But if I go to far then I lose the position.
Drive smarter and input gentler.

[Oilchange]

'Knowledge dispels fear', a phrase I learned a few years back that perfectly sums up what you have to do.
>Get training.

[SidewaysSi]

Pan Pan Pan said:

Digby said:

jamieduff1981 said:

Learning to manage powerful RWD cars is what makes them so rewarding.

...without all the electronic crap.

Absolutely. Try driving something like a Caterham 7 in all weathers, and the person doing the driving will begin to understand what true car control is all about. No electronic aids whatsoever in conjunction with non power assisted steering and brakes.
The best option, as someone has already pointed out, would be to do some high performance driving training, with the Porsche option where you can train on the specific type of car you have / will be driving, would be a good start. Better than stuffing your car into an Armco.

Oh yes, a Caterham in the wet can be a right handful. My first and only scare was in my first Caterham. Wet road, 20-30 mph coming off a roundabout, barely 1/2 throttle but I managed a half spin. Took my numberplate off but no other damage. I was very young and it had CR322s-that my excuse anyway!

Lots more Caterham miles on road and track and no incidents since. You live and learn.

[epom]

Worst I have a 911 post ever ;-)

[steelej]

Get2Jaime said:

I disagree, most rear wheel drive cars do not have an engine and a significant proportion of the cars weight in the rear, over the rear wheels.

In addition, most cars do not have the torque and power of the 911, further amplifying the issue.

What the OP is creating is the 911 pendulum type effect and can be fatal if not tamed correctly, but rest assured this is one of the features of the car and why the rear tyres are so wide!

Just take it easy, especially in the wet and learn over time the outer limits of what the car is capable of.

Perhaps I should have said "any powerful rear wheel drive car" but I could get the tail wagging in my crappy old slow BMW 528 touring in wet conditions by flooring the throttle.

John.

[Ozzie Osmond]

Lt's face it, mid- or rear-engined cars can get a bit exciting when the back decides to have a go at overtaking the front! Much more tricky than front-engined, and people manage to wrap those easily enough.