Scary 911 moment

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Discussion

krallicious

4,312 posts

204 months

Thursday 4th February 2016
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Paddy_N_Murphy said:
I'd also say 'surprised' PSM will allow that to happen.
The PSM still allows a few degrees of slip before cutting in I have found especially between bleeding off the brakes into a corner and reapplying the accelerator.

It took me a good couple of years to get used to the 997 quirks after coming from an M3. Trusting the cars through fast sweeping bends was the most difficult thing for me as you can really feel the mass of the engine.

Zod

35,295 posts

257 months

Thursday 4th February 2016
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Pan Pan Pan said:
Digby said:
jamieduff1981 said:
Learning to manage powerful RWD cars is what makes them so rewarding.
...without all the electronic crap.
Absolutely. Try driving something like a Caterham 7 in all weathers, and the person doing the driving will begin to understand what true car control is all about. No electronic aids whatsoever in conjunction with non power assisted steering and brakes.
The best option, as someone has already pointed out, would be to do some high performance driving training, with the Porsche option where you can train on the specific type of car you have / will be driving, would be a good start. Better than stuffing your car into an Armco.
Check out the driving gods! laugh

Keep the electronics switched on when on the road. If you trigger the DSC light and you weren't expecting to, then you've made a mistake.

NRS

22,079 posts

200 months

Thursday 4th February 2016
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Steve H said:
jamieduff1981 said:
nickfrog said:
Steve H said:
OP, make sure the tyres and alignment is 100% before you listen to all the driving gods and blame yourself entirely.
What is a driving god ?
Someone who takes responsibility for the fact that they are the only person pressing pedals and twirling the steering wheel, apparently.
It's someone that can diagnose a fault in another driver without needing to know if the car the other driver was the cause of his problems. Such a god could easily control a 911 on full throttle in the wet, on diesel, running ditch finders with 2 degrees of toe out on the NSR.
If you read most of the posts from the so called driving gods they generally are saying they have done the same as the OP described and had incidents as a result (and so have learned what not to do). It's clear from what the OP described that it's very likely putting full trottle on at 4k rpm in damp conditions in a powerful car will result in some issues. It could be an issue with the car, but it's far more likely it was the driver from the description. Well done on him asking, rather than some of the (anti-driving gods?) who say it was a diesel spill since they couldn't possibly make a mistake.

C70R

17,596 posts

103 months

Thursday 4th February 2016
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donkmeister said:
The people who HAVEN'T had a brown-trouser moment in a RWD sportscar can be divided into two types of people:
1) Those who have never owned a RWD sportscar
2) Those who should have just realised cars aren't their "thing" and bought a Ford Focus.
Absolutely yes!
Mine were plentiful, but the one that sticks in my mind is coming onto boost (tuned Japanese thing) while changing lanes on a damp motorway and clipping a white line. I was probably accelerating too aggressively for the conditions (wet, not raining), and the subsequent 30-degree slide was not a thing of beauty.

Reg Local

2,676 posts

207 months

Thursday 4th February 2016
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OP, if you're ever in the North of England, drop me a PM - I can sort out yout cornering issues and give you much more confidence in your 911 in a couple of hours.

Hungrymc

6,642 posts

136 months

Thursday 4th February 2016
quotequote all
krallicious said:
Paddy_N_Murphy said:
I'd also say 'surprised' PSM will allow that to happen.
The PSM still allows a few degrees of slip before cutting in I have found especially between bleeding off the brakes into a corner and reapplying the accelerator.

It took me a good couple of years to get used to the 997 quirks after coming from an M3. Trusting the cars through fast sweeping bends was the most difficult thing for me as you can really feel the mass of the engine.
I really think people are overlooking this point. PSM intervenes far latter than other systems, and you still have the base characteristics of the car with all that weight out the back. The BMW system is constantly involved when working the car hard, its certainly not like that in a 996 and I understand 997 is very similar.

T1berious

2,242 posts

154 months

Thursday 4th February 2016
quotequote all
Like others have said, been there, done that.

Any powerful rear wheel drive car, in the wet, a bit of lock on, and the beans in 2nd at 4k will have probably had the same result.

As mentioned get your confidence back and try again in the dry, you'll be gently sliding around greasy roundabouts in no time! (my personal favourite).

I would have a quick squint at your tires and tracking \ geo just in case there's a bigger issue.

Best of luck!

T1b




SirSamuelBuca

1,353 posts

156 months

Thursday 4th February 2016
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i get this at 1850rpm in my m3 laugh

Steve H

5,224 posts

194 months

Thursday 4th February 2016
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In answer to the various replies to my comment, I'm not saying that it wasn't partly or wholly driver error, I'm just saying that I wasn't in the car at the time and I haven't seen the car so I don't know wink.


The thing that brought it to mind was jumping into a 997 last year to instruct on the Silverstone GP circuit. It was late morning on a open pit trackday so the driver had already been out and done some laps and started to learn the track, it was his first trackday and he was having a good time.

From the moment he accelerated out onto the track it was obvious to me that something wasn't right, the car felt unstable and wouldn't hold a straight line under acceleration. The driver was doing nothing wrong that I could see, a sensible fella who seemed happy with how he was going but I asked him to return to the paddock at the end of the lap and we took a look around the car. Nothing obvious at first glance but once we had borrowed a jack and had a look underneath it became clear that both rear tyres were down to the wires on the inside edges eek.

Point of the story? The chap had owned the car for a few months and just thought that's how they drove! Yes, you could say it's a reflection on his inexperience in these cars that he did not recognise the issue just from behind the wheel but the fact was he was in immediate danger of having a sudden and unexpected accident. Much like the OP did.

cerb4.5lee

30,189 posts

179 months

Thursday 4th February 2016
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Byker28i said:
hurricaneone said:
jamieduff1981 said:
As the others have said, it's a sudden "flooring" that caused this, coupled with likely slow reaction times.

My Cerbera has easily enough power to do this, and even on a cold dry day will break traction at around 50mph in 2nd gear as the revs rise taking the torque with it and suddenly the torque applied to the wheels exceeds the traction available. Just wang the accelerator open suddenly and it'll do it in 4th on a damp road. Progressively open the throttles, allowing weight to transfer to the rear wheels and load them up allows much more power to be applied - but even foot to the floor in 3rd will result in loss of traction on a dry road. That's all fine - it's a TVR and anyone who doesn't expect it will soon be a statistic.

My XFR-S on the other hand is far more dangerous. It's a very well sorted chassis and about as much fun as a family car can be to drive. However - the fact is that with over 500lb.ft of torque from a supercharged 5 litre with a very non-German throttle response, no turbo lag to soften inputs, coupled with RWD via an active limited slip differential it will break traction on both rear wheels with either sudden OR wide throttle opening from pretty much any RPM in the wet, which can be quite alarming at first, yawing the car quite violently before the full-granny-mode DSC even wakes up. The DSC will prevent any drama if the over-use of power is gradual, but doing what you did OP will have the car snaking its way up the road with both rear tyres alight easily.

In the nicest possible way - you are still getting used to a high performance car - you've done the worst thing possible. Damp road (apart from aquaplaning potential, I personally find that a damp road is as slippery as a full wet one - if the tyres can disperse the water then it's entirely down to whether the compound grips the tarmac or not. Dry good, water molecules in between tyre and tarmac bad), low gear, revs just where a decent sized naturally aspirated engine makes its best torque or thereabouts and then you wellied the throttle wide open without managing the weight transfer.

If you're reactions are good (and you have experience) you can prevent the fishtailing-come-spin by undoing the stupid thing you just did - i.e. immediately put the throttle back where you had it before making the mistake. Dipping the clutch if you have 3 pedals works too. Both of these need to be done before the yaw angle gets too far. You also need to be right on the ball with your corrective steering and unwinding thereof. Many people catch the first yaw but are too slow to unwind it as the back end comes back in again and they swing the other way through a combination of angular momentum the car builds up and their own steering input encouraging it.


What you need to do is explore what the car can cope with gradually. Open the throttle a little bit more each time you leave a roundabout in various conditions and you'll learn what the car can do. Just going straight for full throttle is something that only a slow car lets you away with.

Edited by jamieduff1981 on Wednesday 3rd February 20:38
Thanks, great input.
Cerbera driver. We've all learnt these lessonsbiggrin
Agree and I think if I hadn't have owned a 200SX for four years previous to my Cerbera I am sure I would have smashed it up...they are just so lively and unpredictable but great fun when you manage to hold onto them.

I remember doing 80mph in the dry on a straight road and I hit a gentle bump in the road and it almost threw me off into a field!

heebeegeetee

28,591 posts

247 months

Thursday 4th February 2016
quotequote all
Steve H said:
OP, make sure the tyres and alignment is 100% before you listen to all the driving gods and blame yourself entirely.
Well said!

That's absolutely the first correct answer imo. Without doing alignment first all the other reasons are cobblers imho. smile

Of course I should add after checking tyres first, and that there wasn't something on the road surface (which I'd discount if others weren't having similar issues).

It doesn't sound right to me, I'd definitely not automatically assume its a problem with 911 or driver, more likely to be an individual issue with that particular car.

Edited by heebeegeetee on Thursday 4th February 18:32

Oilchange

8,421 posts

259 months

Thursday 4th February 2016
quotequote all
I would say that the cold wet roundabout, possibly low treaded rear tyres and a heavy right foot had a fair bit to do with it...

heebeegeetee said:
Without doing alignment first all the other reasons are cobblers imho. smile
Edited by heebeegeetee on Thursday 4th February 18:32

shambolic

2,146 posts

166 months

Thursday 4th February 2016
quotequote all
Get2Jaime said:
No real comparison, your SLK diesel (presumably Auto) in this instance will be in the kick down phase of acceleration therefore will fishtail. Equally, your SLK is front engined and completely different weight distribution to a 911 which you acknowledge.

Hardly 'pish'....in addition, the OP asked for thoughts and experiences from 911 owners!
Was pointing out that relatively low powered but low down the Rev range torque diesel with little weight over the back can and will fishtail and spin if you suddenly boot it off a roundabout if back end is not in a straight line.
So it's not something I would be looking to do in a 911 or any rear wheel car in the wet for that matter.
Purely driver error not anything to do with the car that hopefully the OP has learned a lesson on.

Pan Pan Pan

9,777 posts

110 months

Thursday 4th February 2016
quotequote all
ryandoc said:
Any dampness whatsoever and a powerfull rear wheel drive car and all bets are off. You'd have to work hard in bone dry summer weather to loose the back end but cold damp winter roads you need your concentration camp regardless of what driver aids you have, still just rubber between you and the road !
Wide tyres are great for getting a lot of power onto the road in dry conditions, but not so good when it is wet or damp. The weight is distributed over a greater surface area, so the ability of the driving wheels to spin up, and get the car out of shape is increased, when (very) wide tyres are used on the back end.

Pan Pan Pan

9,777 posts

110 months

Thursday 4th February 2016
quotequote all
Zod said:
Pan Pan Pan said:
Digby said:
jamieduff1981 said:
Learning to manage powerful RWD cars is what makes them so rewarding.
...without all the electronic crap.
Absolutely. Try driving something like a Caterham 7 in all weathers, and the person doing the driving will begin to understand what true car control is all about. No electronic aids whatsoever in conjunction with non power assisted steering and brakes.
The best option, as someone has already pointed out, would be to do some high performance driving training, with the Porsche option where you can train on the specific type of car you have / will be driving, would be a good start. Better than stuffing your car into an Armco.
Check out the driving gods! laugh

Keep the electronics switched on when on the road. If you trigger the DSC light and you weren't expecting to, then you've made a mistake.
Absolutely, anyone who relies on electronic aids to make a car move in the right direction is not a driving god, the car might be, but they are not. smile

Digby

8,230 posts

245 months

Thursday 4th February 2016
quotequote all
Pan Pan Pan said:
Absolutely, anyone who relies on electronic aids to make a car move in the right direction is not a driving god, the car might be, but they are not. smile
If I do ever get to the stage where I prefer (or need) circuitry to Chapman, I will just give up and get a chauffeur.

Vyse

1,224 posts

123 months

Thursday 4th February 2016
quotequote all
The description makes the scenario similar to this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miA5qj5ergM

NRS

22,079 posts

200 months

Friday 5th February 2016
quotequote all
heebeegeetee said:
Steve H said:
OP, make sure the tyres and alignment is 100% before you listen to all the driving gods and blame yourself entirely.
Well said!

That's absolutely the first correct answer imo. Without doing alignment first all the other reasons are cobblers imho. smile

Of course I should add after checking tyres first, and that there wasn't something on the road surface (which I'd discount if others weren't having similar issues).

It doesn't sound right to me, I'd definitely not automatically assume its a problem with 911 or driver, more likely to be an individual issue with that particular car.

Edited by heebeegeetee on Thursday 4th February 18:32
Putting the throttle fully down from 4k rpm in a low gear in damp conditions in a 385hp car and you think it's most likely there's something wrong with the car?

Pan Pan Pan

9,777 posts

110 months

Friday 5th February 2016
quotequote all
Vyse said:
The description makes the scenario similar to this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miA5qj5ergM
What seemed odd about this video is that the driver did not appear to attempt at making any steering correction to counter the slide, nor did he appear to lift off, after getting out of shape, all a bit odd really. Could the driver have been waiting for electronic aids to do the recovery for him?

bennyboysvuk

3,491 posts

247 months

Friday 5th February 2016
quotequote all
Pan Pan Pan said:
Vyse said:
The description makes the scenario similar to this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miA5qj5ergM
What seemed odd about this video is that the driver did not appear to attempt at making any steering correction to counter the slide, nor did he appear to lift off, after getting out of shape, all a bit odd really. Could the driver have been waiting for electronic aids to do the recovery for him?
I watched my father in law do the same thing, but on a skid-pan in a C63 AMG. He didn't have any idea what so ever about dialling in opposite lock. I would think that a massive percentage of drivers would behave like this. Another large percentage would likely do as Jamie said and apply lock initially, then lift off and not be able to unwind it quickly enough to stop the second swing of the tail.

All I can recommend is practising every day if possible. smiledriving