RE: BMW M3 saloon (E90): You Know You Want To
Discussion
I don't think the "lack" of torque would bother me too much. I have an E46 M3 and it sounds like the delivery is similar. It feels like a small engined family hatchback from about 1000-2000rpm, a normal engined one from about 2-4 and then it gets interesting and you've still got 4000 to go!
This makes it very easy to control in the wet and slippery weather this time of year as you get what you ask for from the throttle - a little gives a little, a lot gives a lot.
My other car, an XC90 auto diesel, is easier in traffic but so much less fun everywhere else. Three kids prefer the room in the back though..
This makes it very easy to control in the wet and slippery weather this time of year as you get what you ask for from the throttle - a little gives a little, a lot gives a lot.
My other car, an XC90 auto diesel, is easier in traffic but so much less fun everywhere else. Three kids prefer the room in the back though..
mikearwas said:
If you want any gear grunt go for a C63 but if you like working an engine to get the performance then the M3 is the one to go for. It really is that simple.
Got to agree with the above. I personally prefer the exterior looks of the M3 over the C63 in coupe form. Not so much in the saloon.I seem to see C63s absolutely everywhere aswell so as great as the engine and sound is it's becoming a bit of a novelty for me.
Still a cracking pair of motors either way!
People complaining about it struggling to beat a 320d off the lights or overtaking 2 cars on an NSL in 6th? Really?? This is an M3, yes an M3 which as far as I was aware was meant to be more about driver involvement.
For everyone else they sell a 335d. OK it doesn't have the M badge which will obviously loose you some status points on the school run but which is probably more suited to what certain people want by the sound of it.
It's this kind of thinking that has partly led to the new M3\M4 being more everyday usable but utterly failing to excite when more is demanded of it. I bloody hate that EVERYTHING now including sports cars and performance saloons gets compared to bloody diesel rep mobiles like they are the pinnacle of motoring nirvana by which all other cars should be judged. Mark my words, at this rate we'll have a diesel M3 next, the people who forgot or totally missed the point of an M3 will no doubt be ecstatic.
For everyone else they sell a 335d. OK it doesn't have the M badge which will obviously loose you some status points on the school run but which is probably more suited to what certain people want by the sound of it.
It's this kind of thinking that has partly led to the new M3\M4 being more everyday usable but utterly failing to excite when more is demanded of it. I bloody hate that EVERYTHING now including sports cars and performance saloons gets compared to bloody diesel rep mobiles like they are the pinnacle of motoring nirvana by which all other cars should be judged. Mark my words, at this rate we'll have a diesel M3 next, the people who forgot or totally missed the point of an M3 will no doubt be ecstatic.
Guvernator said:
People complaining about it struggling to beat a 320d off the lights or overtaking 2 cars on an NSL in 6th? Really?? This is an M3, yes an M3 which as far as I was aware was meant to be more about driver involvement.
For everyone else they sell a 335d. OK it doesn't have the M badge which will obviously loose you some status points on the school run but which is probably more suited to what certain people want by the sound of it.
It's this kind of thinking that has partly led to the new M3\M4 being more everyday usable but utterly failing to excite when more is demanded of it. I bloody hate that EVERYTHING now including sports cars and performance saloons gets compared to bloody diesel rep mobiles like they are the pinnacle of motoring nirvana by which all other cars should be judged. Mark my words, at this rate we'll have a diesel M3 next, the people who forgot or totally missed the point of an M3 will no doubt be ecstatic.
That's a great point actually. Everyone moaning about the enormous torque making the M4 a PITA and sound dull as dishwater yet when faced with having to keep an engine on the boil it's too much like hard work. It seems BMW can't win For everyone else they sell a 335d. OK it doesn't have the M badge which will obviously loose you some status points on the school run but which is probably more suited to what certain people want by the sound of it.
It's this kind of thinking that has partly led to the new M3\M4 being more everyday usable but utterly failing to excite when more is demanded of it. I bloody hate that EVERYTHING now including sports cars and performance saloons gets compared to bloody diesel rep mobiles like they are the pinnacle of motoring nirvana by which all other cars should be judged. Mark my words, at this rate we'll have a diesel M3 next, the people who forgot or totally missed the point of an M3 will no doubt be ecstatic.
Guvernator said:
People complaining about it struggling to beat a 320d off the lights or overtaking 2 cars on an NSL in 6th? Really?? This is an M3, yes an M3 which as far as I was aware was meant to be more about driver involvement.
For everyone else they sell a 335d. OK it doesn't have the M badge which will obviously loose you some status points on the school run but which is probably more suited to what certain people want by the sound of it.
It's this kind of thinking that has partly led to the new M3\M4 being more everyday usable but utterly failing to excite when more is demanded of it. I bloody hate that EVERYTHING now including sports cars and performance saloons gets compared to bloody diesel rep mobiles like they are the pinnacle of motoring nirvana by which all other cars should be judged. Mark my words, at this rate we'll have a diesel M3 next, the people who forgot or totally missed the point of an M3 will no doubt be ecstatic.
If you have owned a E9x M3 then fair enough and you do make a fair point in some ways...if you haven't owned one then trust me the V8 M3 sucks as a daily driver and doesn't make much sense with its power delivery and the fact that everything only happens above 6k revs and it's just not an easy car to exploit or enjoy on the road. For everyone else they sell a 335d. OK it doesn't have the M badge which will obviously loose you some status points on the school run but which is probably more suited to what certain people want by the sound of it.
It's this kind of thinking that has partly led to the new M3\M4 being more everyday usable but utterly failing to excite when more is demanded of it. I bloody hate that EVERYTHING now including sports cars and performance saloons gets compared to bloody diesel rep mobiles like they are the pinnacle of motoring nirvana by which all other cars should be judged. Mark my words, at this rate we'll have a diesel M3 next, the people who forgot or totally missed the point of an M3 will no doubt be ecstatic.
On a track I am sure it's a different kettle of fish though.
yonex said:
That's a great point actually. Everyone moaning about the enormous torque making the M4 a PITA and sound dull as dishwater yet when faced with having to keep an engine on the boil it's too much like hard work. It seems BMW can't win
I think the problem is twofold1) The M3, car and badge have become so popular that with each iteration, pressure has mounted to move it out of the remit of enthusiasts car and into the realm of the everyday.
2) The rise and rise of diesel and turbocharged engines has meant that anything which doesn't provide instant torque is deemed to be lacking. I remember the first time I stepped out of a turbocharged car into something like an S2000. I wondered if the engine was broken, until I hit 6krpm and realised what all the fuss was about.
The new M3 is a VERY competent car but definitely lacks the excitement of the previous cars. Is it even possible to make a car both everyday usable and exciting at the same time? I don't know but the new one certainly hasn't got the balance right for me.
I have been looking for a wagon for the kids that is still fun.
Was looking at E39 M5's but most at starship mileage with bigs bills looming and 10k for a decent-isn one.
This however has changed my mind entirely. They look good value and a manual is perfect.
I had a C63 AMG, didn't get on with the gearbox and as my only car it was too lame.
This for family trips and the Porsche for high days is what I am now thinking.
It's a tricky one the 15k performance car you can get kids in that isn't going to bankrupt you but it does lend itself to a good hours browsing the classifieds each evening on the search for a 'family car'
OH knows diddly squat about cars too, so de-badge it and tell her 'I will get that engine noise seen to' should do the trick.
Was looking at E39 M5's but most at starship mileage with bigs bills looming and 10k for a decent-isn one.
This however has changed my mind entirely. They look good value and a manual is perfect.
I had a C63 AMG, didn't get on with the gearbox and as my only car it was too lame.
This for family trips and the Porsche for high days is what I am now thinking.
It's a tricky one the 15k performance car you can get kids in that isn't going to bankrupt you but it does lend itself to a good hours browsing the classifieds each evening on the search for a 'family car'
OH knows diddly squat about cars too, so de-badge it and tell her 'I will get that engine noise seen to' should do the trick.
Guvernator said:
2) The rise and rise of diesel and turbocharged engines has meant that anything which doesn't provide instant torque is deemed to be lacking.
I think you hit the nail on the head with this to be fair, don't get me wrong the M3 is epic from 6000rpm to 8400rpm for an absolute fact but that small window of shove is so difficult to exploit regularly on the road though. cerb4.5lee said:
I think you hit the nail on the head with this to be fair, don't get me wrong the M3 is epic from 6000rpm to 8400rpm for an absolute fact but that small window of shove is so difficult to explicit regularly on the road though.
The thing is turbo engines were more exciting 20 years ago and I really used to love them. OK they weren't as instantly responsive as now but most produced meaningful shove from 2.5k all the way to 7k and beyond, the only real issue was lag. As those engines were developed, they became more and more responsive and I thought at some point they'd eventually get to the nirvana of reduced lag, plenty of low down torque while still retaining that manic mid to top end punch giving you a huge usable power-band, a prospect that I was rather excited about.
Unfortunately baring really exotic 6 figure engines, that promise hasn't been delivered. Yes they've made them more responsive but at the expense of top end fizz which makes them feel very anodyne to turbocharged engines of yesteryear.
te repmobile upgrades - no wonder Clarkson branded you 'Cocks' cerb4.5lee said:
I think you hit the nail on the head with this to be fair, don't get me wrong the M3 is epic from 6000rpm to 8400rpm for an absolute fact but that small window of shove is so difficult to exploit regularly on the road though.
You must travel way way faster than I do, I have never found the power that much of an issue. Certainly past 3500 rpm it's providing enough shove. I don't expect a roll on in top gear to set my world on fire, but then that's why I bought a manual in the first place.
yonex said:
cerb4.5lee said:
I think you hit the nail on the head with this to be fair, don't get me wrong the M3 is epic from 6000rpm to 8400rpm for an absolute fact but that small window of shove is so difficult to exploit regularly on the road though.
You must travel way way faster than I do, I have never found the power that much of an issue. Certainly past 3500 rpm it's providing enough shove. I don't expect a roll on in top gear to set my world on fire, but then that's why I bought a manual in the first place.100mph plus though I have always sung it's praises and the way it piled on its pace then never failed to impress me and the engine is at its best for sure.
cerb4.5lee said:
Guvernator said:
People complaining about it struggling to beat a 320d off the lights or overtaking 2 cars on an NSL in 6th? Really?? This is an M3, yes an M3 which as far as I was aware was meant to be more about driver involvement.
For everyone else they sell a 335d. OK it doesn't have the M badge which will obviously loose you some status points on the school run but which is probably more suited to what certain people want by the sound of it.
It's this kind of thinking that has partly led to the new M3\M4 being more everyday usable but utterly failing to excite when more is demanded of it. I bloody hate that EVERYTHING now including sports cars and performance saloons gets compared to bloody diesel rep mobiles like they are the pinnacle of motoring nirvana by which all other cars should be judged. Mark my words, at this rate we'll have a diesel M3 next, the people who forgot or totally missed the point of an M3 will no doubt be ecstatic.
If you have owned a E9x M3 then fair enough and you do make a fair point in some ways...if you haven't owned one then trust me the V8 M3 sucks as a daily driver and doesn't make much sense with its power delivery and the fact that everything only happens above 6k revs and it's just not an easy car to exploit or enjoy on the road. For everyone else they sell a 335d. OK it doesn't have the M badge which will obviously loose you some status points on the school run but which is probably more suited to what certain people want by the sound of it.
It's this kind of thinking that has partly led to the new M3\M4 being more everyday usable but utterly failing to excite when more is demanded of it. I bloody hate that EVERYTHING now including sports cars and performance saloons gets compared to bloody diesel rep mobiles like they are the pinnacle of motoring nirvana by which all other cars should be judged. Mark my words, at this rate we'll have a diesel M3 next, the people who forgot or totally missed the point of an M3 will no doubt be ecstatic.
On a track I am sure it's a different kettle of fish though.
I wouldn't agree with saying it sucks as a daily driver, as an all round, one car solution to all of my driving needs I can't think of anything I'd rather own
Guvernator said:
The thing is turbo engines were more exciting 20 years ago and I really used to love them. OK they weren't as instantly responsive as now but most produced meaningful shove from 2.5k all the way to 7k and beyond, the only real issue was lag.
As those engines were developed, they became more and more responsive and I thought at some point they'd eventually get to the nirvana of reduced lag, plenty of low down torque while still retaining that manic mid to top end punch giving you a huge usable power-band, a prospect that I was rather excited about.
Unfortunately baring really exotic 6 figure engines, that promise hasn't been delivered. Yes they've made them more responsive but at the expense of top end fizz which makes them feel very anodyne to turbocharged engines of yesteryear.
Surely a 335i is the best of both worlds?As those engines were developed, they became more and more responsive and I thought at some point they'd eventually get to the nirvana of reduced lag, plenty of low down torque while still retaining that manic mid to top end punch giving you a huge usable power-band, a prospect that I was rather excited about.
Unfortunately baring really exotic 6 figure engines, that promise hasn't been delivered. Yes they've made them more responsive but at the expense of top end fizz which makes them feel very anodyne to turbocharged engines of yesteryear.
freenote said:
Surely a 335i is the best of both worlds?
Nope, had a 335i for a while. It suffers from the same malady that all modern turbo cars seem to suffer from. Lot's of torque and noise at low revs then runs out of puff at 5k. I found myself short-shifting to get out of that awful flat zone at the top end. It was a lovely day-to-day car and initially the wall of torque was impressive but that was it's only party piece and it didn't have anything else to keep me excited.Another kick in the teeth is that the road tax is >£500.00
Not a huge sum of money in it's own right but couple that fact with the powerband being found at hooligan level then it was just not a good road car/daily driver for me.
Again, all consumables are M3 specific and therefore extremely higher priced that it's lesser siblings.
They are a very expensive car in every respect and all you get in return is the odd day where it's dry, the road is clear and there are no cameras. (I don't condone dangerous driving; you know what I mean though)
I was bored with mine in 6 months.
Paying that amount VED only added to the frustration.
Saying that, I recently bought a brand new Golf R. It was a spur of the moment thing after reading all the rave reviews. Polar opposite to the M3 but I sold that after 3 months and less than 1000 miles and lost £4k in the process. So maybe my views are nonsense
Not a huge sum of money in it's own right but couple that fact with the powerband being found at hooligan level then it was just not a good road car/daily driver for me.
Again, all consumables are M3 specific and therefore extremely higher priced that it's lesser siblings.
They are a very expensive car in every respect and all you get in return is the odd day where it's dry, the road is clear and there are no cameras. (I don't condone dangerous driving; you know what I mean though)
I was bored with mine in 6 months.
Paying that amount VED only added to the frustration.
Saying that, I recently bought a brand new Golf R. It was a spur of the moment thing after reading all the rave reviews. Polar opposite to the M3 but I sold that after 3 months and less than 1000 miles and lost £4k in the process. So maybe my views are nonsense
Guvernator said:
Nope, had a 335i for a while. It suffers from the same malady that all modern turbo cars seem to suffer from. Lot's of torque and noise at low revs then runs out of puff at 5k. I found myself short-shifting to get out of that awful flat zone at the top end. It was a lovely day-to-day car and initially the wall of torque was impressive but that was it's only party piece and it didn't have anything else to keep me excited.
So what is the answer for everyday fun car? I've had 335i for about 4 months and I have to say I'm smitten although it's been back for a load of warranty work already. Mrs has a Swift Sport which is great fun but the gulf in refinement is huge and I need auto for London commute, especially in roadworks season as it is now.I have owned my E92 M3 for around 4 years and the low torque has never bothered me one bit. In fact there is something really pleasurable about dropping the gears and nailing the V8 all the way to 8500rpm.
I have been looking to see what to get next as I'm struggling to find a practical performance package as good as the E92.
It does drink fuel but hey it's a V8 after all!
I have been looking to see what to get next as I'm struggling to find a practical performance package as good as the E92.
It does drink fuel but hey it's a V8 after all!
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