Subaru 22B or Lancia Integrale Evo 2?
Discussion
Interesting points of view, thanks.
I have actually owned both. The 22B does drive a lot better and is much faster but the Integrale is a true classic now and has an aura all of its own with some lovely details inside and out. Steering is exemplary in both cars but I forgot how rubbery the gearchange was in the Lancia - not a high point. 22B is a more demanding car to drive with an aggressive clutch, stiff ride and short gearing but feels every inch the road going rally car.
I read that they made 12,000 Integrale Evos (Evo1+ Evo2) versus 400 22Bs, so if rareity had anything to do with it the 22B would be worth far more. So I actually think the Lancia has a wider following and attracts the more traditional car collector, whereas the Subaru suffers a little from Japanese car stigma. I also think that will pass along with the stuffy old traditionalists. When the 'Playstation' generation get their hands on some more serious cash surely the 22B will begin to outstrip the Delta? Then again the Lancia's status as a rally icon is not going anywhere.
Neither the Evo 2 Integrales nor the 22B were ever rallied by their makers yet somehow this doesn't seem to affect values as much as I would expect. If it did, the Evo 1 Integrale would be worth more.
Either way the Mistsubishi Evo VI TME is looking like the bargain of the century, even at the current £20k+ for a good red one. Stunning rally pedigree and terrific to drive. Fortunately I already have one of those
But I'd also like a LHD car for trips to Europe.
I actually think the 22B is better value right now. Delta Evo 2s don't seem to be selling that fast at £45k but rarer versions still command healthy premiums. Very hard to call where it goes from here but down is the least likely of the two!
I have actually owned both. The 22B does drive a lot better and is much faster but the Integrale is a true classic now and has an aura all of its own with some lovely details inside and out. Steering is exemplary in both cars but I forgot how rubbery the gearchange was in the Lancia - not a high point. 22B is a more demanding car to drive with an aggressive clutch, stiff ride and short gearing but feels every inch the road going rally car.
I read that they made 12,000 Integrale Evos (Evo1+ Evo2) versus 400 22Bs, so if rareity had anything to do with it the 22B would be worth far more. So I actually think the Lancia has a wider following and attracts the more traditional car collector, whereas the Subaru suffers a little from Japanese car stigma. I also think that will pass along with the stuffy old traditionalists. When the 'Playstation' generation get their hands on some more serious cash surely the 22B will begin to outstrip the Delta? Then again the Lancia's status as a rally icon is not going anywhere.
Neither the Evo 2 Integrales nor the 22B were ever rallied by their makers yet somehow this doesn't seem to affect values as much as I would expect. If it did, the Evo 1 Integrale would be worth more.
Either way the Mistsubishi Evo VI TME is looking like the bargain of the century, even at the current £20k+ for a good red one. Stunning rally pedigree and terrific to drive. Fortunately I already have one of those
But I'd also like a LHD car for trips to Europe.I actually think the 22B is better value right now. Delta Evo 2s don't seem to be selling that fast at £45k but rarer versions still command healthy premiums. Very hard to call where it goes from here but down is the least likely of the two!
Get both. Evo just for the looks, 22B for regular use.
Remember when Ryan Giggs had his 22B. Lived not far from me at the time. One of the first in the country.
Wanted an EVO forever. Passed on a few and regretted it. When a mint one was less than 12k ! Both a rare site on the road nowadays. Final edition or club italia would be a nice addition for the garage.
Remember when Ryan Giggs had his 22B. Lived not far from me at the time. One of the first in the country.
Wanted an EVO forever. Passed on a few and regretted it. When a mint one was less than 12k ! Both a rare site on the road nowadays. Final edition or club italia would be a nice addition for the garage.
twinturban said:
Neither the Evo 2 Integrales nor the 22B were ever rallied by their makers yet somehow this doesn't seem to affect values as much as I would expect. If it did, the Evo 1 Integrale would be worth more.
I think the 22B is helped by being the only Impreza that looked like the 97-00 Impreza WRC - none of the other Imprezas (including the Type-R coupe and Type-RA homologation cars) had those flared guards etc which give it that extra special something.Has to be an integrale. Here`s a few pics and vid of my old one, wish I`d kept it!
https://youtu.be/gP1uDAgObBI
https://youtu.be/gP1uDAgObBI
What's a hifi edition? never heard of that one.
Surely there's more room for appreciation (in every sense) in the orginal 8v Integrale? It was the first, achieved so much in the WRC, and was a brilliant road car. These days the difference between 185 and 215 bhp has shrunk to insiginificance. In fact the Deltas never got faster, the extra power was only there to compensate for the extra weight. The 8v Integrale also had more torque than the 16v. The hard part is finding a nice one but at £20k for the best example I've ever seen looks like terrific value to me. For what it's worth the 16v is the prettiest of all the Integrales and also great value (compared to the Evo2s) if you can find a nice one. The car above looks great on the bigger wheels but factory stock would do me just fine.
There's no question of the 22B being the faster, better car to drive. Steering is exquisite on both cars but the Subaru has a much more precise gearbox and other-worldly cornering ability. The flat four is also more charismatic with an exhaust in place. The Delta's four is commendably smooth and delicioiusly cammy in 8v form.
Surely there's more room for appreciation (in every sense) in the orginal 8v Integrale? It was the first, achieved so much in the WRC, and was a brilliant road car. These days the difference between 185 and 215 bhp has shrunk to insiginificance. In fact the Deltas never got faster, the extra power was only there to compensate for the extra weight. The 8v Integrale also had more torque than the 16v. The hard part is finding a nice one but at £20k for the best example I've ever seen looks like terrific value to me. For what it's worth the 16v is the prettiest of all the Integrales and also great value (compared to the Evo2s) if you can find a nice one. The car above looks great on the bigger wheels but factory stock would do me just fine.
There's no question of the 22B being the faster, better car to drive. Steering is exquisite on both cars but the Subaru has a much more precise gearbox and other-worldly cornering ability. The flat four is also more charismatic with an exhaust in place. The Delta's four is commendably smooth and delicioiusly cammy in 8v form.
Edited by twinturban on Sunday 7th February 11:37
cat with a hat said:
OP, why is the first question you ask about residual values?
Because its Pistonheads and Pistonheads loves banging on about residual values.For me it would have to be the Integrale Evo 2. I do really like the 22b but it doesnt quite have that special something about it that the Integrale does. I would be happy with a P1 instead and would feel less bad about sticking it into the trees when I get carried away thinking im Colin McRae. The Integrale Evo just has something incredible about it.
cat with a hat said:
OP, why is the first question you ask about residual values?
Because I've owned both before so I know what they're like to drive.I've also lost money on every car I've owned to date. It's about time I started to reverse the trend.
Wanting to own a great car to drive that goes up in value. Nothing to be ashamed of there.
twinturban said:
Because I've owned both before so I know what they're like to drive.
I've also lost money on every car I've owned to date. It's about time I started to reverse the trend.
Wanting to own a great car to drive that goes up in value. Nothing to be ashamed of there.
I don't think now is a good time to join the bubble, but you're more than welcome to join the bandwagon.I've also lost money on every car I've owned to date. It's about time I started to reverse the trend.
Wanting to own a great car to drive that goes up in value. Nothing to be ashamed of there.
t.Whatever happens to the ludicrously over inflated upper end of the classic car market, cars like the best Integrales and 22Bs are not going to be going back down to £20k again. Good ones are too rare, they are too special to drive and look at and until petrol cars aren't allowed on the road anymore will always have a strong following. To be honest the 22B is worth £50k, it was hugely undervalued before thanks (in part) to the financial crisis. Same with the Integrale £45k for the best cars doesn't seem over inflated to me. If the values aren't jacked up excessively then they won't fall excessively when the market has its reality check.
But would you buy a 22B, say in 18 month's time, for £50k if for not much more money you could get something like, for example, a 996 GT3 RS?
I know subjectively they are very different cars, but if prices do start falling then I don't see anything being immune from the price drops, much as the price hikes over the last few years dragged everything up. There will always be other cars that, in the grand scheme, are viewed as more/less desirable
I know subjectively they are very different cars, but if prices do start falling then I don't see anything being immune from the price drops, much as the price hikes over the last few years dragged everything up. There will always be other cars that, in the grand scheme, are viewed as more/less desirable
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