Subaru 22B or Lancia Integrale Evo 2?

Subaru 22B or Lancia Integrale Evo 2?

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Discussion

twinturban

Original Poster:

241 posts

122 months

Wednesday 10th February 2016
quotequote all
Yes there are some dealers chancing their arm with Integrales but we'll see how long they hang around for. I'm not advocating paying over the odds.

Would I buy an Integrale over a 996 GT3 even if they were the same price? Personally yes, providing the Integrale was a perfect example. Mainly because I have no interest in the 996 GT3 whatsoever anyway. Plus they are over priced (and over rated in my opinion) so it's only right that their prices experience a correction.

I see no reason why a Subaru 22B shouldn't be worth £50k - again for a perfect example - the best RS500 Cosworths are worth twice that. Are they over valued? Hard to say, the best cars have been £65k for ages and only in the last few years have they crept up. Certainly the rwd Sapphire Cosworths are very undervalued along with the 8v and 16v Integrales, the trouble is finding a good one. But look what E30 M3s fetch currently! The Integrale Evos and RS500 Cosworths were just looked after better on the whole. I think the best 8v Integrale I've seen for sale in years was asking £20k. That is for the car that started it all and dominated the WRC. That's looking under valued to me because good 8v cars are rarer than good Evo 2s. Sure the demand is all about Evo 2, until recently the Evo 1 was lagging far behind, even now you can save £10k on an Evo 1 which is daft (especially as Lancia never rallied the Evo 2) but then the market usually is.

Guvernator

13,156 posts

165 months

Wednesday 10th February 2016
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The 22b is a newer car, in fact a whole generation ahead so it should be more reliable, less prone to rust, dodgy electrics and other issues that tends to afflict Italian cars of the Lancia Delta era. The engines on the 22b however are a little fragile, especially if it's an import that hasn't been mapped for UK fuel. More worryingly some parts for it like those gorgeous wide arch body parts are no longer available so if you prang it, you could be in for a long wait and some frustration in getting it repaired and back on the road.

The 22b would be the better drive IMO in terms of pace and handling but it won't have the same aura as the little Italian which seems to have transcended it's mundane hatchback roots. I'm not sure how much that intangible aura is worth to you personally, some people love it which is why they'd opt for the older car while others will prefer the better driving experience of the newer one.

In terms of value, sorry but I think they are both overpriced and wouldn't pay £45k for either. Yes the 22b is very rare so you could almost make a case for it but as someone stated it still has the "Japanese" stigma attached to it which may prevent it from becoming truly desirable in the eyes of collectors. The Lancia in comparison is a lot more prolific so the almost mythical status attached to them now seems to be the main price driver. Both cars however have also been well and truly seized by the current classic car bubble. Yes you could argue "they don't make them like they used to any more" but that was also true 5 years ago so what has made them triple in price in the intervening time? Will the bubble burst of will they continue to rise, my money's on the former.

So 22b for me although I could live with the Lancia at a push tongue out but only if either where £25k, at £45k I'd look elsewhere.

Leins

9,468 posts

148 months

Wednesday 10th February 2016
quotequote all
twinturban said:
Yes there are some dealers chancing their arm with Integrales but we'll see how long they hang around for. I'm not advocating paying over the odds.

Would I buy an Integrale over a 996 GT3 even if they were the same price? Personally yes, providing the Integrale was a perfect example. Mainly because I have no interest in the 996 GT3 whatsoever anyway. Plus they are over priced (and over rated in my opinion) so it's only right that their prices experience a correction.

I see no reason why a Subaru 22B shouldn't be worth £50k - again for a perfect example - the best RS500 Cosworths are worth twice that. Are they over valued? Hard to say, the best cars have been £65k for ages and only in the last few years have they crept up. Certainly the rwd Sapphire Cosworths are very undervalued along with the 8v and 16v Integrales, the trouble is finding a good one. But look what E30 M3s fetch currently! The Integrale Evos and RS500 Cosworths were just looked after better on the whole. I think the best 8v Integrale I've seen for sale in years was asking £20k. That is for the car that started it all and dominated the WRC. That's looking under valued to me because good 8v cars are rarer than good Evo 2s. Sure the demand is all about Evo 2, until recently the Evo 1 was lagging far behind, even now you can save £10k on an Evo 1 which is daft (especially as Lancia never rallied the Evo 2) but then the market usually is.
The 996 GT3 was only an example, but is there really nothing out there currently valued somewhere in the £80-90K range that you would prefer to a 22B? I'm not a Scooby fan myself on the whole, and as much as I'd love an Integrale if I felt that the likes of 993 Turbos or Ferrari 348 GTCs were going to fall in value to similar-ish levels there's no way in hell I'd go for the Delta

I just don't see any car having the following to prop up these prices if everything else above it is falling

m444ttb

3,160 posts

229 months

Wednesday 10th February 2016
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I'd come down on the side of 22B all things beI got equal. Close decision though.

Harris_I

3,228 posts

259 months

Wednesday 10th February 2016
quotequote all
twinturban said:
Mainly because I have no interest in the 996 GT3 whatsoever anyway. Plus they are over priced (and over rated in my opinion)
Burn the blasphemer! BURN HIM!


BTW, my 'grale is a daily driver. Better to buy an honest car with miles on it that gets used and looked after rather than a garage queen with a few thousand miles - the latter will be nothing but trouble.


RemyMartin

6,759 posts

205 months

Wednesday 10th February 2016
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There were many different special edition versions of the Integrale Evo throughout its life. Here’s a list of them all.

Club Italia – Based on the Evo 1, just 15 were built for members of Club Italia. Although all cars differ in slight detail, the cam covers are painted in Blue and yellow – like the famous Fanalone Fulvias

Hi Fi – Built for members of Lancia’s HiFi Club, existing to serve people who had bought a minimum of seven new Lancia models. 25 built

Dealers Collection – Painted in a shade of Candy Red, a GM colour, unique options incude a push-button start and passenger foot brace. 179 were built, each with a numbered plaque
Lancia Delta Integrale Martini 5
Martini 5 – Evo 1-based special, built to celebrate the Integrale’s fifth consecutive World Rally Championship. It’s marked out by white paint, Martini stripes, and Black Alcantara with red stitching and red seatbelts. 400 built

Gialla Ginestra – These yellow Evo 2 models featured air conditioning and a black Alcantara interior. 515 built

Lancia Club – A mix of blue and red cars built for members of the Lancia Club. Just 8 built

Verde York - Special dark green paint and beige leather interior. 580 Evo 1 models built, with an extra 22 Evo 2 models produced in 1994

Bianca Perlata – Painted Pearl white, with a thin grey coachline. 370 built

Blu Lagos – A special new colour along with a thin yellow stripe along the flank. 205 produced

Martini 6 – Special edition Martini-striped edition car to commemorate the car’s sixth (and final) World Rally Championship win. 310 built

Final Edition – This run of red cars with a stripe running down the centre of the car was among the final batch of cars to leave the factory. Upgrades include a rear strut brace. 250 built in total


twinturban

Original Poster:

241 posts

122 months

Wednesday 10th February 2016
quotequote all
Wow and people roll their eyes at a new Lotus special edition!

993 Turbo and Ferrari 348 might have more prestigious badges but are they really better to drive?

I'd far rather be in the ultimate Subaru than a disappointing Ferrari. I owned an F355 once. Never again. The 22B was hugely better to drive. Up to 130mph or so, quicker too.

And have you seen the prices of 993 Turbos lately?! I think we can rule them out straight away.

I sold a house in London in 2007 on the basis that the bubble simply had to burst. I timed it right before the financial crisis but that same properly would be worth another £400k now...




LotusOmega375D

7,618 posts

153 months

Wednesday 10th February 2016
quotequote all
It's interesting that the productions runs of several of these numerous special Ltd Edition Integrales are about the same, if not more, than all of the 22Bs built put together. It's probably rarer to have a non Ltd Edition Integrale!

Anyway time for a couple of real world photos.

My old 22B:



My old Integrale 16v:



Sorry about the second one: it wasn't all that bad and was on its way to be sorted when it failed. All was well afterwards, but I just couldn't get those nagging doubts about reliability and corrosion resistance out of my head so it had to go.

Leins

9,468 posts

148 months

Wednesday 10th February 2016
quotequote all
I would give my granny's soul for a 348 GT Comp myself, but anyway again they're just personal examples

But as you mention the 993 Turbo and its current pricing, would you take one over a 22B if they fell to £50k again and the 22B stayed at that level too? Fair enough if you would, but I still suspect such a market situation would push the Subaru's value downwards. £50k in such a marketplace I believe would be deemed too high a price for a 22B by most potential buyers then

Harris_I

3,228 posts

259 months

Wednesday 10th February 2016
quotequote all
LotusOmega375D said:
Sorry about the second one: it wasn't all that bad and was on its way to be sorted when it failed. All was well afterwards, but I just couldn't get those nagging doubts about reliability and corrosion resistance out of my head so it had to go.
Cheeky! smile Here's another photo for some balance. Can be used in all weathers and is a tough car if looked after. Likes Waxoyl and owners who proactively check for spots of rust.

I would love a 22B but the integrale is the very best road car I have ever owned. If someone offered me twice the market value I would still hesitate.


Guvernator

13,156 posts

165 months

Wednesday 10th February 2016
quotequote all
What's the aim though, if you want them for the driving experience there are better drivers cars for £45k now, if you want them as an investment you won't be able to drive them for fear of effecting the resale value or smashing them which in the case of the 22b will put it out off the road for a long time while you try to source parts. You'll also probably need to dry store them and pay out on maintenance to keep them in tip top condition.

Although it sounds really nice to be able to buy a drivers car that might make you a few bob, the thing that a lot of people forget is that a car for driving and a car that you'd like to make money on are almost mutually exclusive.

Harris_I

3,228 posts

259 months

Wednesday 10th February 2016
quotequote all
Guvernator said:
if you want them for the driving experience there are better drivers cars for £45k now
In all honesty, I don't think I will ever own a more fun car to drive at any price point on public roads with all the associated constraints that go with that: modern performance cars are just way to quick to be an interesting steer (for me at least) unless I have no fear of losing my licence (which I do), mostly as a result of the modern obsession with chasing Nurburgring lap times to the detriment of an immersive driving experience. So NVH suppression, electric steering, electronically controlled and limited powertrains all lead to a digital experience. Modern Porsches epitomise this for me.

The suspension is supple enough to cope with an epidemic of pock-marked roads in this country (in contrast I absolutely detest the ride quality of modern German saloons - I mean why have suspension engineers regressed over the last 20 years?). The car is small and wieldy enough to cope with our narrow and congested roads, it has great mid-range punch for getting out of trouble and most astonishing is how a four wheel drive car ended up with such a talkative steering. Sure it's not Veyron quick in a straight line, but then again my 560bhp M5 is a dull Eurobox in comparison. (In isolation, the M5 is a fabulous car).

All the primary controls are 100% analogue. I guess the 90s represent for me the golden era of immersive driving before electronics starting taking over.


twinturban

Original Poster:

241 posts

122 months

Wednesday 10th February 2016
quotequote all
^^^ very well put.

I look forward to seeing some suggestions for better drivers cars for £45k. Cayman S? Numb, lifeless electric steering. Too multi-purpose to ever feel really special. Impressive but never truly exciting. A psycho tuned R33 GTR or Mitsubishi Evo IX would be but likely to be catastrophically expensive and lose perhaps even more money than the Cayman.

The Integrale's main limitation is the lack of top speed, so it doesn't easily or quickly get past 120mph. That might have been an issue back when we could go flat out from Calais to anywhere in Europe but those days are long gone. What matters is how the car feels and delivers below 120mph and in that the Integrale excels. Part of this is due to the exceptional steering the like of which is not found in any modern car. A Lotus Evora probably gets closest. I don't know what it is about rally cars but the 22B steering is exquisite too, quite light but stunningly detailed and precise. The Evo VI TME also has lovely steering too surprisingly. For anyone used to an electric system, a drive in an Integrale would be a revelation.

Edited by twinturban on Wednesday 10th February 16:08

Guvernator

13,156 posts

165 months

Wednesday 10th February 2016
quotequote all
Harris_I said:
In all honesty, I don't think I will ever own a more fun car to drive at any price point on public roads with all the associated constraints that go with that: modern performance cars are just way to quick to be an interesting steer (for me at least) unless I have no fear of losing my licence (which I do), mostly as a result of the modern obsession with chasing Nurburgring lap times to the detriment of an immersive driving experience. So NVH suppression, electric steering, electronically controlled and limited powertrains all lead to a digital experience. Modern Porsches epitomise this for me.

The suspension is supple enough to cope with an epidemic of pock-marked roads in this country (in contrast I absolutely detest the ride quality of modern German saloons - I mean why have suspension engineers regressed over the last 20 years?). The car is small and wieldy enough to cope with our narrow and congested roads, it has great mid-range punch for getting out of trouble and most astonishing is how a four wheel drive car ended up with such a talkative steering. Sure it's not Veyron quick in a straight line, but then again my 560bhp M5 is a dull Eurobox in comparison. (In isolation, the M5 is a fabulous car).

All the primary controls are 100% analogue. I guess the 90s represent for me the golden era of immersive driving before electronics starting taking over.
All good and valid points and I agree with most of them, however I just feel current 90s car prices are way to inflated, an Evo 2 at £20-25k (or a 22b) was a cracking buy, at twice the price however I'm not so sure and like it or not, once figures start climbing you'll have one eye on preserving value which would certainly lessen my enjoyment and make me cautious about flinging it down a road or track with abandon. I'd also feel like abit of a mug paying 2-3 times the price for a car just because some investors have decided that cars are the new asset class to invest in.

£45k also brings them into competition with Exige's, Evora's, 911's of various flavours, Aston Martin's, or if you want to keep it 90's a Honda NSX (although they are getting overpriced too now), all of which are viable alternatives at that price range.

OP if you are dead set on some modern classic thrills, have you also considered an RX-7 Spirit R. Arguably almost as iconic and rare as the 22b, a cracking drive and yet half the price. I'd be more comfortable putting 20k into one of those then 45k+ into the other 2.


twinturban

Original Poster:

241 posts

122 months

Wednesday 10th February 2016
quotequote all
Nothing against RX-7s. It's all well and good wishing for £25k 22B's but that is well under what they're worth and was the price in a depressed market. Personally I wish they were all under £10k, we have to deal with what they're worth now. For those wishing for cheaper thrills they can drive the wheels off simply look for the 16v Integrale which is just as fast and the prettiest of the lot to my eyes. Then there are the Mitsubishi Evos which are still fantastic value at under £10k for a V or VI, less than that for a nice III or VI. Even better value are the Celica GT4s which also have tremendous rally pedigree then there's the likes of the Nissan GTiR.

The 4 cyl Exige is an exceptional driving tool and has continued to show cast iron residuals, but to the point where it's very hard to see how values can go up when the V6 models are coming down to a similar level. A very different driving experience to the Integrale but I grant you not a lesser one if you are sufficiently lithe and enjoy more manic thrills and lightening responses. In terms of practicality the Lancia and Subaru are in a different league of course. If trackdays are a consideration then the Exige would embarass pretty much anything from the 90's. Fortunately I already have trackdays covered.

Guvernator

13,156 posts

165 months

Wednesday 10th February 2016
quotequote all
I know you mentioned the R33 GT-R but I think you blew them off too easily. You have a veritable pick from the earliest R32 to the latest R35 for your 45k and they all seem to be depreciation proof and the R32 and R34 especially are slowly rising. £15k-£20k on a clean R32 or £30k on a clean R34 is a good bet IMO.

You also don't need to tune them massively for them to be fun, a stage 1 with around 400bhp will be perfect as a road car and will be as reliable or more so then an Evo 2 or 22b. They are huge fun and worth considering for a fun car which could make you some money IMO.

twinturban

Original Poster:

241 posts

122 months

Wednesday 10th February 2016
quotequote all
Yup, I had an R34 GTR too. Fantastic wail with an after market pipe, but big and heavy next to the Integrale and 22B, and unlike them, feel detuned in standard form. A stage 1 tune just makes them feel like the factory intended. Personally I don't think the 4 wheel steering isn't a patch on the Lancia's and 22B's and mine went wierd on me once and that didn't inspire much confidence. The ride was brutally stiff on my V-Spec car which offered unusual track manners for such a heavy car but it was bone jarring on the road. They also made a lot of them, something like 40,000 R32 GTRs! But yes, a great choice and you could get something rarer like a V-Spec II for £45k and that ought to be a sound buy. The R34 in particular has risen quite strongly in recent years.

Surely an Integrale is a bit more special and I can't shake the feeling that a 22B has to be worth more in a few years? Once the guys in their 40's now reach retirement age I reckon the stigma towards Japanese cars will have all but disappeared.

mnx42

215 posts

163 months

Wednesday 10th February 2016
quotequote all
RemyMartin said:
There were many different special edition versions of the Integrale Evo throughout its life. Here’s a list of them all.

Club Italia – Based on the Evo 1, just 15 were built for members of Club Italia. Although all cars differ in slight detail, the cam covers are painted in Blue and yellow – like the famous Fanalone Fulvias

Hi Fi – Built for members of Lancia’s HiFi Club, existing to serve people who had bought a minimum of seven new Lancia models. 25 built

Dealers Collection – Painted in a shade of Candy Red, a GM colour, unique options incude a push-button start and passenger foot brace. 179 were built, each with a numbered plaque
Lancia Delta Integrale Martini 5
Martini 5 – Evo 1-based special, built to celebrate the Integrale’s fifth consecutive World Rally Championship. It’s marked out by white paint, Martini stripes, and Black Alcantara with red stitching and red seatbelts. 400 built

Gialla Ginestra – These yellow Evo 2 models featured air conditioning and a black Alcantara interior. 515 built

Lancia Club – A mix of blue and red cars built for members of the Lancia Club. Just 8 built

Verde York - Special dark green paint and beige leather interior. 580 Evo 1 models built, with an extra 22 Evo 2 models produced in 1994

Bianca Perlata – Painted Pearl white, with a thin grey coachline. 370 built

Blu Lagos – A special new colour along with a thin yellow stripe along the flank. 205 produced

Martini 6 – Special edition Martini-striped edition car to commemorate the car’s sixth (and final) World Rally Championship win. 310 built

Final Edition – This run of red cars with a stripe running down the centre of the car was among the final batch of cars to leave the factory. Upgrades include a rear strut brace. 250 built in total
What a very informative post, thank you. I, for one, hadn't heard of all of those. For me though it would have to be the 22B... it just looks ... right!

twinturban

Original Poster:

241 posts

122 months

Thursday 11th February 2016
quotequote all
Really is a tricky decision. Head says 22B will surpass the Evo 2 in value one day. But I already have a TME and the 22B has more in common with that than the Lancia. LHD would also be great in Europe.

I genuinely love both cars and would have one of each parked next to the Mak if I had the means and the space.

Matt_N

8,902 posts

202 months

Thursday 11th February 2016
quotequote all
RemyMartin said:
There were many different special edition versions of the Integrale Evo throughout its life. Here’s a list of them all.

Club Italia – Based on the Evo 1, just 15 were built for members of Club Italia. Although all cars differ in slight detail, the cam covers are painted in Blue and yellow – like the famous Fanalone Fulvias

Hi Fi – Built for members of Lancia’s HiFi Club, existing to serve people who had bought a minimum of seven new Lancia models. 25 built

Dealers Collection – Painted in a shade of Candy Red, a GM colour, unique options incude a push-button start and passenger foot brace. 179 were built, each with a numbered plaque
Lancia Delta Integrale Martini 5
Martini 5 – Evo 1-based special, built to celebrate the Integrale’s fifth consecutive World Rally Championship. It’s marked out by white paint, Martini stripes, and Black Alcantara with red stitching and red seatbelts. 400 built

Gialla Ginestra – These yellow Evo 2 models featured air conditioning and a black Alcantara interior. 515 built

Lancia Club – A mix of blue and red cars built for members of the Lancia Club. Just 8 built

Verde York - Special dark green paint and beige leather interior. 580 Evo 1 models built, with an extra 22 Evo 2 models produced in 1994

Bianca Perlata – Painted Pearl white, with a thin grey coachline. 370 built

Blu Lagos – A special new colour along with a thin yellow stripe along the flank. 205 produced

Martini 6 – Special edition Martini-striped edition car to commemorate the car’s sixth (and final) World Rally Championship win. 310 built

Final Edition – This run of red cars with a stripe running down the centre of the car was among the final batch of cars to leave the factory. Upgrades include a rear strut brace. 250 built in total
thumbup

Great post.