Perceptions of reliabilty
Discussion
My favorite 'reliability' image.
Driving down to Spain in the Tuscan and ended up surrounded by broken down cars.
Porsche, Ford and Peugeot.
Had to smile but did feel sorry for the Ditch guy with the Ford, Family holiday and all that.
'having a problem uploading the image
|http://thumbsnap.com/RmlGXjBa[/url]
Driving down to Spain in the Tuscan and ended up surrounded by broken down cars.
Porsche, Ford and Peugeot.
Had to smile but did feel sorry for the Ditch guy with the Ford, Family holiday and all that.
'having a problem uploading the image
|http://thumbsnap.com/RmlGXjBa[/url]Edited by so called on Saturday 6th February 10:31
oop north said:
I have seen reliability surveys that show the freelander2 as more reliable than the Honda CRV and the Range Rover Sport as more reliable than BMW X5. I think we may be buying a second land Rover - the odds of at least one of them working at any one time should be improved
Out of interest, can you remember where they were published? I'm not doubting you and I'm sure there are some fairly selective criteria that result in Land Rover products outperforming their German counterparts (I do have doubts about the Honda) but overall if you look at reliability surverys from say J. D. Power or Reliability Index Land rover comes out near the bottom.
I have owned reliable and unreliable cars over the years.
VW Bora was very reliable, never any issues.
Nissan Sentra was reliable over course 6 years with only needing a new alternator.
Pontiac was mostly reliable. Did breakdown once that required a new transmission at cost of $2,3000. Ran fine after repair.
Buick Regal was very reliable. Never once broke down and was passed off with I think around 212,000 miles on her big 3.8L engine.
MG ZR - fun to drive but non stop issues. Several breakdowns.
MG ZT CDTi - was told it was such an exceptional car and how I would never find one like it. Well 5 breakdowns in space of 6 months,towed home by AA and then over £2,000 later in repairs and servicing. Still more problems popping up. Clutch peddle buzzing like a vibrator, interior rattling getting worse, rear upper arms needing replaced along with all springs, leaking in steering rack, seatbelt not stopping when pulled along with a few other age problems. With having kids and work and general life, we simply could not go on with it anymore. Cracking looking car but a bloody unreliable money pit. Got rid of the car a few weeks ago for a 2016 V40. Shame really as I really liked the ZT.
I don't think we would verge away now from buying new/leasing. It comes with a peace of mind knowing everything is covered.
VW Bora was very reliable, never any issues.
Nissan Sentra was reliable over course 6 years with only needing a new alternator.
Pontiac was mostly reliable. Did breakdown once that required a new transmission at cost of $2,3000. Ran fine after repair.
Buick Regal was very reliable. Never once broke down and was passed off with I think around 212,000 miles on her big 3.8L engine.
MG ZR - fun to drive but non stop issues. Several breakdowns.
MG ZT CDTi - was told it was such an exceptional car and how I would never find one like it. Well 5 breakdowns in space of 6 months,towed home by AA and then over £2,000 later in repairs and servicing. Still more problems popping up. Clutch peddle buzzing like a vibrator, interior rattling getting worse, rear upper arms needing replaced along with all springs, leaking in steering rack, seatbelt not stopping when pulled along with a few other age problems. With having kids and work and general life, we simply could not go on with it anymore. Cracking looking car but a bloody unreliable money pit. Got rid of the car a few weeks ago for a 2016 V40. Shame really as I really liked the ZT.
I don't think we would verge away now from buying new/leasing. It comes with a peace of mind knowing everything is covered.
1990s Rovers and MGs. Most people would agree that they are an ownership nightmare.
1994 R8. Failed to start once when it was about a year old. It was an immobilizer fault.
Since 2007 I have owned five different MGs from a ZT-T V6 to several F and TF models.
2015 - at 14 years old the MGF splits a hose on the A1 with spectacular steamy consequences. I feared the worse. It was recovered to a garage who told me the hose split through age.
I'm not saying the MGs haven't ever needed repairs but they've been down to stuff wearing out rather than breakdowns.
I guess judging by the accepted reputation of these cars that I have just been very lucky.
I've owned two modern Land Rovers and the only faults have been software issues with the navigation.
Another car which you might expect to be unreliable was a 1979 Chrysler Horizon. It was bought new by my Dad and passed round the family in its later years. I can't remember it ever being serviced after we passed it on. It got crashed, fixed and when it began to rust it got fixed up again. At 10 years old it was regularly running the length of the country in the hands of a relative who needed a car but who was lacking in the £'s department. A free reliable car for him just when he needed a helping hand and I doubt if he did more than change the oil now and then.
It was lent out like a library book and worked perfectly until the end when it got hit while parked and was uneconomical to repair.
We were quite sad when it 'died'
1994 R8. Failed to start once when it was about a year old. It was an immobilizer fault.
Since 2007 I have owned five different MGs from a ZT-T V6 to several F and TF models.
2015 - at 14 years old the MGF splits a hose on the A1 with spectacular steamy consequences. I feared the worse. It was recovered to a garage who told me the hose split through age.
I'm not saying the MGs haven't ever needed repairs but they've been down to stuff wearing out rather than breakdowns.
I guess judging by the accepted reputation of these cars that I have just been very lucky.
I've owned two modern Land Rovers and the only faults have been software issues with the navigation.
Another car which you might expect to be unreliable was a 1979 Chrysler Horizon. It was bought new by my Dad and passed round the family in its later years. I can't remember it ever being serviced after we passed it on. It got crashed, fixed and when it began to rust it got fixed up again. At 10 years old it was regularly running the length of the country in the hands of a relative who needed a car but who was lacking in the £'s department. A free reliable car for him just when he needed a helping hand and I doubt if he did more than change the oil now and then.
It was lent out like a library book and worked perfectly until the end when it got hit while parked and was uneconomical to repair.
We were quite sad when it 'died'
Bizarrely I've bought two RR Evoques for Mrs Get - 4 and a half years and 60k+ miles so far, and not a single problem. Not one. Not only that, the first one held its value more than any new car I've ever bought.
I've owned Defenders in the past that regularly failed. I had a Disco 2 that was a joke.
I've owned Defenders in the past that regularly failed. I had a Disco 2 that was a joke.
5 years and 50k ( 70k miles on it in total ) miles in an '04 plate Lexus IS300........replaced the in-dash 6 disc, known fault. Replaced the water pump, known fault. Replaced both ball joints, known fault! It's now becoming " odd " when starting from cold, the indications are that it's losing fuel pressure overnight, from the look of it on the forums, again, known fault. Despite all of this, I would trust it to get me anywhere I wanted to go with no reservations.
13 years and 50k miles with my much modified Evo8/9 hybrid. Absolutely no faults whatsoever until it was 10 years , 40k miles old, then the heater matrix sprung a tiny leak on the M1 near Leicester.....it got me back to Southampton without issue. The same year the rear propshaft seal began to leak, £80 fix. I suppose you could say that needing a clutch last year at 44k was a little early, but given it was the original, initially designed for 280 brake, and handling close to 400 for the last 5 years, I won't complain. Another car that I always trust to get to any given destination, as long as there are enough fuel stations!
I have a friend with a garage who has an '04 plate 280k mile Audi A4 turbo diesel loan car which is still on the original clutch and the head's never been off, spectacularly durable car.
13 years and 50k miles with my much modified Evo8/9 hybrid. Absolutely no faults whatsoever until it was 10 years , 40k miles old, then the heater matrix sprung a tiny leak on the M1 near Leicester.....it got me back to Southampton without issue. The same year the rear propshaft seal began to leak, £80 fix. I suppose you could say that needing a clutch last year at 44k was a little early, but given it was the original, initially designed for 280 brake, and handling close to 400 for the last 5 years, I won't complain. Another car that I always trust to get to any given destination, as long as there are enough fuel stations!
I have a friend with a garage who has an '04 plate 280k mile Audi A4 turbo diesel loan car which is still on the original clutch and the head's never been off, spectacularly durable car.
As others have said, most people don't understand the notion of maintenance and think that any repair makes it "unreliable".
My most reliable car was a 1992 Cavalier. 5 years, 80k miles, minimal maintenance, never ever failed to start. Sold it to my best mate who tried to kill it with no maintenance whatsoever, he failed. It still drove away even when the MoT was out and it needed a clutch, rad, fuel tank, etc.
Your list of stuff isn't unreliability but maintenance. Wheel bearings last 100k miles, give or take. Brakes wear out. 80s era hydraulic seals fail and cylinders/calipers will need to be reconned. Suspension bushes and shocks wear out, as do rubber belts. This gives unreliability if it dumps you at the roadside without warning, but none of these things do. Suspension bushes will clatter for weeks, wheel bearings will moan, even minor hydraulic leaks on the brakes won't stop the thing working even if "well, it doesn't really pull up in a straight line but it's only an old Landy and yes, I do have to top it up a bit. Aren't they all like that?".
My most reliable car was a 1992 Cavalier. 5 years, 80k miles, minimal maintenance, never ever failed to start. Sold it to my best mate who tried to kill it with no maintenance whatsoever, he failed. It still drove away even when the MoT was out and it needed a clutch, rad, fuel tank, etc.
Your list of stuff isn't unreliability but maintenance. Wheel bearings last 100k miles, give or take. Brakes wear out. 80s era hydraulic seals fail and cylinders/calipers will need to be reconned. Suspension bushes and shocks wear out, as do rubber belts. This gives unreliability if it dumps you at the roadside without warning, but none of these things do. Suspension bushes will clatter for weeks, wheel bearings will moan, even minor hydraulic leaks on the brakes won't stop the thing working even if "well, it doesn't really pull up in a straight line but it's only an old Landy and yes, I do have to top it up a bit. Aren't they all like that?".
Talking about "perceptions" of reliability also brings into the fore "perceived" build quality. An area where the german excel. I know a few Fords which have gone to 300K+ and been fine, but I have seen plenty which have just 50K on the clock and *look* like they're going to fall apart. is this the fault of the owners? Quite probably. However, I've owned many german cars with over 100K on the clocks and interiors that feel fairly new. They wear their miles well. There might be underlying mechanical issues, but they present themselves well and this certainly helps PERCEIVED reliability.
Let's not forget the average Joe Bloggs is probably going to be buying a new car with a long warranty on it, so they probably don't care too much about actual reliability as long as they know (or think) someone is going to pick up the tab should something go bang.
Let's not forget the average Joe Bloggs is probably going to be buying a new car with a long warranty on it, so they probably don't care too much about actual reliability as long as they know (or think) someone is going to pick up the tab should something go bang.
battered said:
As others have said, most people don't understand the notion of maintenance and think that any repair makes it "unreliable".
My most reliable car was a 1992 Cavalier. 5 years, 80k miles, minimal maintenance, never ever failed to start. Sold it to my best mate who tried to kill it with no maintenance whatsoever, he failed. It still drove away even when the MoT was out and it needed a clutch, rad, fuel tank, etc.
Your list of stuff isn't unreliability but maintenance. Wheel bearings last 100k miles, give or take. Brakes wear out. 80s era hydraulic seals fail and cylinders/calipers will need to be reconned. Suspension bushes and shocks wear out, as do rubber belts. This gives unreliability if it dumps you at the roadside without warning, but none of these things do. Suspension bushes will clatter for weeks, wheel bearings will moan, even minor hydraulic leaks on the brakes won't stop the thing working even if "well, it doesn't really pull up in a straight line but it's only an old Landy and yes, I do have to top it up a bit. Aren't they all like that?".
I wouldn't call a fuel tank replacement routine maintenance unless the car has lived in mud all its life, or been poorly designed.My most reliable car was a 1992 Cavalier. 5 years, 80k miles, minimal maintenance, never ever failed to start. Sold it to my best mate who tried to kill it with no maintenance whatsoever, he failed. It still drove away even when the MoT was out and it needed a clutch, rad, fuel tank, etc.
Your list of stuff isn't unreliability but maintenance. Wheel bearings last 100k miles, give or take. Brakes wear out. 80s era hydraulic seals fail and cylinders/calipers will need to be reconned. Suspension bushes and shocks wear out, as do rubber belts. This gives unreliability if it dumps you at the roadside without warning, but none of these things do. Suspension bushes will clatter for weeks, wheel bearings will moan, even minor hydraulic leaks on the brakes won't stop the thing working even if "well, it doesn't really pull up in a straight line but it's only an old Landy and yes, I do have to top it up a bit. Aren't they all like that?".
On the general point though, reliability is the correct word to use although it is often misinterpreted. The car is a system and all components have a failure rate, which may increase as the car ages (eg bearings), or may not (eg computer chips). Maintenance is simply how we manage that failure rate to the level we want to tolerate. What would be ideal to know is the failure rate of the major components with age, and that's what the science of reliability testing is all about. This explains why the Jap cars are considered reliable, because they were world leaders in reliability testing if my knowledge is correct.
Back to the issue of the fuel tank. It should be easy to make a fuel tank reliable, just make it out of thicker metal. This comes at a cost obviously. So poor design or cost cutting is probably what makes one model of car more unreliable than another, all else being equal. Unfortunately we don't get the information when we buy a car to make the right decisions. In my line of work I'd be wanting to know the specifications of fuel tank to estimate its longevity, but we can't/don't get that information when we buy a car.
The fuel tank is an extreme example, i don't think many cars need a replacement fuel tank ever, so the manufacturers probably have it about right. However clearly there are some components which fail more often than we would like. But as has been said before on here, manufacturers don't really care about the reliability of a +10 year old car. Now new cars failing at the roadside, I think is very bad reputationally. I do see quite a lot of new Audi's/VWs on the motorway hard shoulder.
Edited by danlightbulb on Saturday 6th February 17:22
I was told categorically by someone on this site that my Range Rover was unreliable. I have absolutely no idea how he'd know. I reckon that ten years and absolutely no breakdowns is reliable enough.
Our Evoque has had one weird moment in the last three years - it blew both headlight bulbs at once.
Luckily I can't think of another modern car that's so easy to change the bulbs.
Our Evoque has had one weird moment in the last three years - it blew both headlight bulbs at once.
Luckily I can't think of another modern car that's so easy to change the bulbs.
battered said:
Your list of stuff isn't unreliability but maintenance. Wheel bearings last 100k miles, give or take. Brakes wear out. 80s era hydraulic seals fail and cylinders/calipers will need to be reconned.
Only if its junk, or has junk seals eg cheap rubber seals that dry out with age or don't wear well.Don't think I have ever had to do a wheel bearing on any of my Japanese cars, VAG stuff it's a regular thing on my wife's Cars at least.
The 80's was the era where Japanese stuff was truly well made mechanically. Essentially anything with Lucas/Bosch/Berr or dare it be French dross was & is imho inherently unreliable, cheaply made & especially nasty with age.
I remember the Honda Concerto's had Cadnium plated hardware (nuts & bolts) under the bonnet, BL's "identical" Rover had unplated hardware that was rusty almost from the factory.
Japanese bearings were always better quality & the seals on a Nippon Denso or Toyota electrical plugs are way better than anything Bosch makes. Try jet washing an engine bay on anything other than a Japanese car! Nippon Denso or (ND licence built Bosch stuff) is sooo much better in many many ways from an engineering perspective despite being the same stuff.
Toyota's legendary LCD clocks, the ones found in mum's old Carina, they were so good in the 80's they still fit the very same ones to new Toyota's & £100k Lexus's now
Just check out the 3 year first MOT failure rates ....off to google it.
Here you go, first MOT failure rates.
The french are very much in a league of their own when it comes to even the basics of making something safe for even only 3 years. An astonishing failure rate!
Lexus is at the top followed by the rest of the Japanese.
Think this says it all!
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-21...
Make Model Number of cars tested Pass rate
Toyota Yaris 25,248 86.6%
Honda Jazz 21,293 85.2%
Toyota Auris 16,173 84.5%
Honda Civic 29,557 84.3%
Nissan Micra 15,548 83.8%
BMW 1-Series 24,075 83.5%
Mercedes-Benz C-Class 20,107 83.4%
VW Polo 29,204 82.3%
Audi A4 23,822 82.2%
Audi A3 24,526 82.1%
Vauxhall Astra 80,431 81.2%
VW Passat 22,243 80.3%
BMW 3-Series 37,875 80.2%
Ford Fiesta 74,660 80.2%
Ford Focus 85,678 80.0%
VW Golf 53,035 79.9%
Ford Ka 22,165 79.5%
Vauxhall Corsa 82,922 78.8%
Nissan Qashqai 16,652 78.7%
Nissan Note 19,014 78.5%
Peugeot 207 46,347 78.3%
Vauxhall Vectra 33,033 77.3%
Ford C-MAX 19,946 77.2%
Ford Mondeo 34,899 76.6%
Renault Clio 28,848 76.6%
Vauxhall Zafira 38,549 76.2%
MINI Cooper 19,707 75.9%
Peugeot 308 22,381 75.3%
Citroen C4 Picasso 18,635 71.3%
Renault Megane 17,337 71.2%
The french are very much in a league of their own when it comes to even the basics of making something safe for even only 3 years. An astonishing failure rate!
Lexus is at the top followed by the rest of the Japanese.
Think this says it all!
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-21...
Make Model Number of cars tested Pass rate
Toyota Yaris 25,248 86.6%
Honda Jazz 21,293 85.2%
Toyota Auris 16,173 84.5%
Honda Civic 29,557 84.3%
Nissan Micra 15,548 83.8%
BMW 1-Series 24,075 83.5%
Mercedes-Benz C-Class 20,107 83.4%
VW Polo 29,204 82.3%
Audi A4 23,822 82.2%
Audi A3 24,526 82.1%
Vauxhall Astra 80,431 81.2%
VW Passat 22,243 80.3%
BMW 3-Series 37,875 80.2%
Ford Fiesta 74,660 80.2%
Ford Focus 85,678 80.0%
VW Golf 53,035 79.9%
Ford Ka 22,165 79.5%
Vauxhall Corsa 82,922 78.8%
Nissan Qashqai 16,652 78.7%
Nissan Note 19,014 78.5%
Peugeot 207 46,347 78.3%
Vauxhall Vectra 33,033 77.3%
Ford C-MAX 19,946 77.2%
Ford Mondeo 34,899 76.6%
Renault Clio 28,848 76.6%
Vauxhall Zafira 38,549 76.2%
MINI Cooper 19,707 75.9%
Peugeot 308 22,381 75.3%
Citroen C4 Picasso 18,635 71.3%
Renault Megane 17,337 71.2%
I remember Toyota having their real purple patch in the early 90s, I didn't process a single warranty claim on a Corolla in 5 years when I worked at the dealers. Extraordinarily reliable things for something so mundane.
The rest of the range was almost as good, but it went pear shaped pretty sharpish when they opened the Derbyshire plant, the first few Carinas through were nowt but trouble by comparison to the Jap built stuff.
The rest of the range was almost as good, but it went pear shaped pretty sharpish when they opened the Derbyshire plant, the first few Carinas through were nowt but trouble by comparison to the Jap built stuff.
There's a world of difference between a classic car and a modern car.
Classic cars (32y.o. Landy or 20y.o. Honda/Merc/etc.) WILL need items replacing/repairing. That's, as others have said, necessary/preventative maintenance.
Modern cars SHOULDN'T need non-service items replacing, not until well out of warranty or into 6-figure mileages.
So the distinction has to be between the two categories:-
- Are you ALWAYS replacing something on a classic, or is it a case of a little bit every year. The OP's Landy sounds like the first - it's fast becoming Trigger's broom.
- Are you finding things breaking on a modern car?
In-between there's the e.g. 6-10y.o. cars where "it depends" is the right answer - depends on mileage, what sort of mileage/how used, how serviced/maintained/checked/cared-for, where kept (salty seaside town or nice non-humid garage), etc. etc.
Classic cars (32y.o. Landy or 20y.o. Honda/Merc/etc.) WILL need items replacing/repairing. That's, as others have said, necessary/preventative maintenance.
Modern cars SHOULDN'T need non-service items replacing, not until well out of warranty or into 6-figure mileages.
So the distinction has to be between the two categories:-
- Are you ALWAYS replacing something on a classic, or is it a case of a little bit every year. The OP's Landy sounds like the first - it's fast becoming Trigger's broom.
- Are you finding things breaking on a modern car?
In-between there's the e.g. 6-10y.o. cars where "it depends" is the right answer - depends on mileage, what sort of mileage/how used, how serviced/maintained/checked/cared-for, where kept (salty seaside town or nice non-humid garage), etc. etc.
HustleRussell said:
Not reliable. Land Rover in general, vary between average and not at all reliable.
.Rubbish.
Seems to me LR have become a lot more reliable since about 2008.
We have an 09 FFRR S/C that is run by a partner at work, a 13 RRS 3.0 TD & sold an 08 RRS 2.7 TD in the middle of last year.
The S/C has had only 1 issue. A regulator on the PAS that made it have heavy steering at all speeds, fixed under warranty. The 3.0 has been 100% & the 2.7 had a fuel pump issue in year 4 that again was fixed under warranty.
I also know someone who runs a year old Overfinch S/C & whilst I don't quite get why someone wants to drop such a gargantuan sum on a 4x4, apart from a faulty motor on the tailgate, it has been 100% too.
Early L322's were a PITA, we had one at work, & I wouldn't expect a P38 to be a paragon of virtue now either.
Also a local farmer who is on his 4th Discovery & has had each incarnation since the 300 TDi. Whilst the first two had issues for him his first Discovery 3 (07 I think) made 92k with only some transmission & air suspension work, he tows a Bullock Trailer quite a bit, & he only replaced it because it was written off in quite a high speed collision with a Navara.
Had it not been for a bent B pillar & floor damage he says he would have repaired it. Now replaced with a 10 plate 3.0 TDV6.
I'm inclined to think part of the issue with these is the ability of Franchise dealers to find & repair issues, specialists always seem to fare much better.
Slightly O/T. Our Senior Partner has run Bentleys since the mid 90's & by far the best is his current, about to be replaced, 2011 Conti GTC. So maybe the manufacturing has reached a zenith too.
Any of the above Average or Not at all reliable?
In short. If an LR of any sort worked for me, I would.
Jim AK said:
HustleRussell said:
Not reliable. Land Rover in general, vary between average and not at all reliable.
Rubbish.Seems to me LR have become a lot more reliable since about 2008.
<snip>
Any of the above Average or Not at all reliable?
In short. If an LR of any sort worked for me, I would.
..does it start in the morning? Does it get you to where you want to go without breaking down? Does it go between services without needing anything other than consumables replacing.... If so, I'd say its reliable....
to me, tyres, pads, suspension parts, clutches etc are all consumables. DMFs and DPFs that fail after 20,000 miles IMO can't be counted as consumables...neither are annoying engine management lights that flick on and off constantly, a problem I have found with VAG cars in particular...
I deliberately stick to simple engineering on my cars, as I buy them when they have done approaching 100K miles. Wont buy any turbo diesels, anything with DMFs etc...simple n/a petrol engine for me does fine.
As usual all this sort of stuff is open to interpretation.
to me, tyres, pads, suspension parts, clutches etc are all consumables. DMFs and DPFs that fail after 20,000 miles IMO can't be counted as consumables...neither are annoying engine management lights that flick on and off constantly, a problem I have found with VAG cars in particular...
I deliberately stick to simple engineering on my cars, as I buy them when they have done approaching 100K miles. Wont buy any turbo diesels, anything with DMFs etc...simple n/a petrol engine for me does fine.
As usual all this sort of stuff is open to interpretation.
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